Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Scott-S6 wrote:Not really. That's probably what I would use if I was to do so though. Or possibly Yarrow.

Most people just use the default random function of the language they're using - almost always an LCG.

*shudder*

A few programs implement the Twister as the default random (Matlab, notably), but most just grab a seed variable from somewhere stupid.

The solution is the same as people who use loaded dice - don't blame the concept of dice because people can't figure out how to randomize them.

Scott-S6 wrote:Most people just use the default random function of the language they're using - almost always an LCG.

For the purposes of finding a number between 1 and 6, for a not-for-profit game, an LCG is good enough.

AlexHolker wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:Most people just use the default random function of the language they're using - almost always an LCG.

For the purposes of finding a number between 1 and 6, for a not-for-profit game, an LCG is good enough.

At least use a LFSR. And seriously, even an Iphone can handle running the twister easily. It's not a hard piece of code anymore. There's excuses for not running it when you're doing things like programing FPS games and using it to determine real-time AI behavior, but if the algorithm takes 0.3 seconds to run instead of 0.02, it's not a huge deal for a dice roller (obviously that's suicide in an FPS). Just use the twister.

AlexHolker wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:Most people just use the default random function of the language they're using - almost always an LCG.

For the purposes of finding a number between 1 and 6, for a not-for-profit game, an LCG is good enough.

An LCG without a seed is not good enough - it'll repeat the same results each time the program is initialised.

Scott-S6 wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

TheBlackVanguard wrote:
In a tournament game, I'm not sure I'd let it fly simply because it will almost assuredly be at least average rolling, whereas you can have that 50 1's stroke of major bad luck roll with real dice.

Why do you say that? Unless it's rigged the results are no more "average" than dice.

Because with real dice you're talking luck, when you're talking a program you're talking mathhammer, or mathematical equations. Which don't take into account the human/luck factor, simply because they can't.

Not to mention it takes a lot more effort to rig your dice to roll good all the time vs. the relatively little effort involved in changing a program.

So if you're going to cheat I want it to be that much harder for you.

In a friendly game once again I don't care about dice rolling apps, if you're gonna cheat in a casual game go ahead, all that means is your life is pretty sad.

I wouldnt want them to because it steals an aspectic from the game, that i love. I wont stop them tough.

And RAW states you have to roll a dice, not randomly generate a number between 1 and 6 lol.

Scott-S6 wrote:An LCG without a seed is not good enough - it'll repeat the same results each time the program is initialised.

True, but that's a problem of programming inferior even to what you can copy and paste from About.com, not a flaw with the LCG.

TheBlackVanguard wrote:Because with real dice you're talking luck, when you're talking a program you're talking mathhammer, or mathematical equations. Which don't take into account the human/luck factor, simply because they can't.

A dice roller program's output is just as dependant on "luck" as the output of a physical dice. Okay, if you worked out in advance what result a certain seed would give you, and timed your use of the roller down to the second so that the program used the right seed, that would produce a known result. But dice rollers do not rely on mathhammer or averaging to function, they generate a very big number, divide it by six, and use the remainder+1 as your result.

As before, I agree with Yakface.

And as for people who are afraid computers aren't truly random- I've probably spent most of my life using computers games and the random number generators in them. Even the shuffle feature on music players is effectively a random number generator. I have only ever encountered 1 application that was noticeably non-random: the random cartoon button on the homestarrunnner.com website. Only one out of probably millions of random number generators.

I wouldn't stop someone from using one, one guy uses one in the d&d game we're in, but I personally wouldn't use one. I don't feel connected to a random number generator in relation to my dice. It would completely wreck my dice superstitions and rituals lol

TheBlackVanguard wrote:
Because with real dice you're talking luck, when you're talking a program you're talking mathhammer, or mathematical equations. Which don't take into account the human/luck factor, simply because they can't.

This is just odd. Why do you think a computer's random is less random than a die? I assure you, for a good random algorithm the major difference between the two you'll notice is that your dice will roll more consistently than the computer, thanks to the fact that they all come pre-loaded for your convenience.

RisingPhoenix wrote:

TheBlackVanguard wrote:
Because with real dice you're talking luck, when you're talking a program you're talking mathhammer, or mathematical equations. Which don't take into account the human/luck factor, simply because they can't.

This is just odd. Why do you think a computer's random is less random than a die? I assure you, for a good random algorithm the major difference between the two you'll notice is that your dice will roll more consistently than the computer, thanks to the fact that they all come pre-loaded for your convenience.

There is also the idea of 'natural rolling' in which you tend to reroll numbers with the same dice due to your short term memory influencing how you rolled the die subconsciously. I'm familiar and dislike it more often than not. I've rolled the same die for 3 different single shot weapons and ended up with 3 1's. I presume it works similarly with high numbers if you dont focus on it, but I can't attest to that, having Murphy practically as a sibling prevents successive good rolls for me.

Luco wrote:

There is also the idea of 'natural rolling' in which you tend to reroll numbers with the same dice due to your short term memory influencing how you rolled the die subconsciously. I'm familiar and dislike it more often than not. I've rolled the same die for 3 different single shot weapons and ended up with 3 1's. I presume it works similarly with high numbers if you dont focus on it, but I can't attest to that, having Murphy practically as a sibling prevents successive good rolls for me.

If you let it bounce a few times on uneven surfaces or hit a wall (roll in a box) I assure you no amount of subconscious manipulation will cause the dice to end up in any way short of their natural loading thanks to the rock tumbler. The forces are just too random for even a supercomputer to accurately predict realtime once it's hit a wall or two.

I've been using a dice roller app on my phone for a lot of games recently, because I can't remember where I put my real dice :(

To be honest, I think real dice are superior in every way. There are lots of times during a game where you are going to want to roll different coloured dice together. Re roll some of your dice but not all, Roll scatter dice, place dice next to certain models etc...

You can kind of do this stuff on a phone but it isn't as convenient as just picking up some dice.

Other problems I have is that it isn't always easy for both players to see, because of viewing angle, glare etc... Have to pass the phone a lot, which can really slow the game down. And it's easy enough to tap the screen or shake the phone accidentally while passing, which rerolls all the dice.

I also feel that having to interact with the phone disengages you from the game. It can be very distracting.

What I like most about real dice is: Real dice don't run out of batteries or turn themselves off after 10 seconds.

I'm pretty squarely in the middle on this one.

I see the utility in a rolling app, but don't really see the need for it personally. Even with up to 120 dice on a charge, rolling the dice is just a part of the game that I happen to enjoy.

My biggest gripe with letting someone use an app would be pretty much the same as anyone else's, which is a lack of transparency. When someone rolls a die, I can see that it's a fairly standard die, numbered 1-6. On a rolling app, you're essentially just seeing a bunch of numbers with possibly questionable randomness.

It's entirely possible that someone's fudged the numbers, but to counterpoint that, by the time such an app saw wide use, it would be outed all over forums just like these.

In a nutshell: what yak said!

My thoughts:

If I wanted to play video games I would play video games. Vassal, dice rolling aps, etc., etc.? No Thanks.

I like holding dice. I like real models and 3D terrain and face to face human interaction.

The aesthetics of wargaming are important to the enjoyment for me and dice are a major component.

Watching dice roll, hearing the clatter, seeing the reaction of those involved in the game as a big roll is made (or failed), etc. are half the fun; A telephone spitting out some numbers just doesn't elicit that imho...

Only if i can use the other guys device and app too.
Eliminates any issues of "software bugs" causing unnaturally accurate hits, wounds, morale checks, etc...

dkellyj wrote:Only if i can use the other guys device and app too.
Eliminates any issues of "software bugs" causing unnaturally accurate hits, wounds, morale checks, etc...

This can be untrue, they can set a certain 'trigger' to roll a %of 6s or 1s extra and you would first need to make sure you do exactly as they did to test for this and even then it can be tricky.

Or you could do the other thing and trust the guy *gasp*

hungryp wrote:I'm pretty squarely in the middle on this one.

I see the utility in a rolling app, but don't really see the need for it personally. Even with up to 120 dice on a charge, rolling the dice is just a part of the game that I happen to enjoy.

My biggest gripe with letting someone use an app would be pretty much the same as anyone else's, which is a lack of transparency. When someone rolls a die, I can see that it's a fairly standard die, numbered 1-6. On a rolling app, you're essentially just seeing a bunch of numbers with possibly questionable randomness.

It's entirely possible that someone's fudged the numbers, but to counterpoint that, by the time such an app saw wide use, it would be outed all over forums just like these.

In a nutshell: what yak said!

For anyone who quoted me with questions ^ this is what I was trying to get across.

TheBlackVanguard wrote:

hungryp wrote:I'm pretty squarely in the middle on this one.

I see the utility in a rolling app, but don't really see the need for it personally. Even with up to 120 dice on a charge, rolling the dice is just a part of the game that I happen to enjoy.

My biggest gripe with letting someone use an app would be pretty much the same as anyone else's, which is a lack of transparency. When someone rolls a die, I can see that it's a fairly standard die, numbered 1-6. On a rolling app, you're essentially just seeing a bunch of numbers with possibly questionable randomness.

It's entirely possible that someone's fudged the numbers, but to counterpoint that, by the time such an app saw wide use, it would be outed all over forums just like these.

In a nutshell: what yak said!

For anyone who quoted me with questions ^ this is what I was trying to get across.

You're welcome!

syanticraven wrote:This can be untrue, they can set a certain 'trigger' to roll a %of 6s or 1s extra and you would first need to make sure you do exactly as they did to test for this and even then it can be tricky.

Has this ever actually happened? Is there even a single known cheat-enabled dice app out there?

Perhaps that could be a stickied thread somewhere on Dakka- a list of all known apps that allow users to cheat. If they are being sold on the iPod store, then surely their cheat options will be advertised in order to get people to DL them, right?

JOHIRA wrote:

syanticraven wrote:This can be untrue, they can set a certain 'trigger' to roll a %of 6s or 1s extra and you would first need to make sure you do exactly as they did to test for this and even then it can be tricky.

Has this ever actually happened? Is there even a single known cheat-enabled dice app out there?

Perhaps that could be a stickied thread somewhere on Dakka- a list of all known apps that allow users to cheat. If they are being sold on the iPod store, then surely their cheat options will be advertised in order to get people to DL them, right?

In all honesty? Probably not no but there is a chance and always the ability to do so -im sure there are apps out there though (google shows a few).
Although I'd argue that the chance of it is less then someone using loaded dice.

Doesn't sound a great idea, unless you lose