Whate are your thoughts on dice rolling apps etc.

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**Daggermaw**

Just wondering what people thought about the idea of using dice rolling apps on various handheld devices was.

I've thought about using mach dice on an iphone for when i play with my orks
the ability to throw 45 dice so easily is appealing esp. since it shows the numbers of 5-6's that are thrown. so it'll speed up all that.

Just wondering what people think of them. Would you allow your opponent to use one in a friendly game?
What about in a tournamnet game?

**Agrinja**

The reality of software based dice is...they aren't truly random. They're based off of a seed, often derived from the system clock, and produce a theoretically repeatable sequence. Odds are, someone might bring this up.

That said....the sequence is theoretically repeatable, but unlikely to be if the software is coded fairly, I'd be more worried about people accusing me of using biased software than anything. It's also easy to point out that the standard method of rolling dice isn't as truly random as it could be, so that could be a counterargument. There's a reason why at a craps table in Vegas they have specific ways they allow you to roll, holding dice with only the tips of your fingers, and rolling them at least hard enough to smack off of the back of the table which often has a surface that is not flat, using precision dice with square corners and the pips not drilled out so that the dice are perfectly balanced.

I think it'll come down to your opponent in the end, do they trust you? Do they see the simplicity? I considered this as an option, but I think I'm going to go with a big rolling tray and dice color coded for quick counting, less likely to have someone take issue.

Honestly, I wouldn't mind you using one in a friendly game were you facing me, hell I'd like to use one. Soo many dice.

**TheBlackVanguard**

^ +1

In a friendly game, I'd prefer it.

In a tournament game, I'm not sure I'd let it fly simply because it will almost assuredly be at least average rolling, whereas you can have that 50 1's stroke of major bad luck roll with real dice.

**Jihadnik**

Holy Crap, those things exist! Where can I get one!!!?

**Daggermaw**

The itunes app store.
just do a search for dice. The one i like is mach dice as you can set how many and what type of dice you want to roll.
Also once you roll dice you can lock them on the screen so it makes rerolling a snap. It's pretty handy, if your opponent lests you use it.

**burning_phoneix**

Friendly games? Yeah I don't mind if my opponent uses them but throwing dice is one of my favorite things about the hobby so I wouldn't use them.

Tournaments? No way. I need truly random rolling for that.

**AlexHolker**

Agrinja wrote:The reality of software based dice is...they aren't truly random. They're based off of a seed, often derived from the system clock, and produce a theoretically repeatable sequence. Odds are, someone might bring this up.

Odds are, that someone is just parroting something they don't understand. Pseudorandom numbers are perfectly fine if deriving the method is more trouble than it's worth. When we're just trying to work out how many of our plastic men hit their plastic men, that's an extremely low standard. The only reasonable objection is that it's easier to hide bias in a software dice roller, not that you could eventually decode a series of hundreds of six-sided die rolls into a pattern.

**Agrinja**

I think it can be expected that people who don't understand things can make some pretty unreasonable arguments, and worse yet, have them be heard and accepted as good.

One thing that might make these more allowable is to give both players use of them, that way any suspicion of favorable patterns goes out the window because if the die rolls are indeed biased, both players can benefit from said bias.

**solkan**

It's simply trivially easy to write a dice roller which does the following:
*tap up or down arrow buttons to change the number of dice rolled
*swipe left to never roll 1's on the next roll.
*swipe right to never roll 6's on the next roll.

And that's an example that isn't even trying very hard. Why would I want to trust some random person's dice rolling app to not be rigged?

**Daggermaw**

Trivially easy for you maybe.
I have a hard time logging into this website!
But seriously if both people were using the same app that i downloaded and just handing it back and forth would you mind? In a friendly game?
Another nice feature is that you can set how many sides a die has in those off chances that you need to roll something else besides a d6 and don't have one handy with you.

**FacelessMage**

Honestly I wouldn't want my opponent using one. Even in friendly games.

**yakface**

You probably want to go read this thread, as it is essentially this same topic (but with more replies):

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/276710.page

I've re-posted my personal stance from that thread below, but I do seem to be in the minority when it comes to people responding to that previous thread:

yakface wrote:
I see this kind of 'anti-cheating' paranoia stuff tossed around so frequently online that it really makes me wonder if my mentality of gaming is completely removed from most gamers.

While I personally really enjoy rolling dice in my games, if my opponent wanted to use a dice rolling app and was willing to allow me to use it on my rolls as well (which is only fair, even though I'd likely never actually take him up on it and use it during the game), then why the heck should I, or anyone else try to deny them from using a tool that would help them enjoy their hobby more?

IMHO, the idea of worrying about whether or not someone may be cheating you, and then putting actions in place to combat this fear, is BY FAR, a much worse quality in gaming than actual cheaters cheating.

I mean, if someone really wants to cheat, then not letting them use a dice-rolling app isn't going to stop them. They're going to alter their dice, learn how to roll funny, cheat their range measurements, fudge their models when you're not looking, etc, etc, etc.

There a thousand ways to cheat in this hobby, but at the end of the day if someone beats you by cheating, so what? Even in the hardest hardcore tournaments, the prizes are almost always just MORE product for the game. So at the end of the day really what have you lost if you've lost a game to purported 'cheater'? Not much.

So IMHO, if a cheater wants to beat me with cheating, then by all means let him go ahead and do it. Congratulations, he's won a game of 40K and I've lost a game of 40K...I still go home and enjoy my life.

In fact, I'll even play that cheater over and over again, losing every time, but I'll continue to struggle like the epic generals in stories vastly outnumbered and outgunned, but knowing that when I do pull off a win, the glory will be all the greater!

Now, I'm not saying I want to play against cheaters, rather far from it. I love to play balanced, tight games and I always want to win. But I'll be damned if I let the idea that someone may be cheating creep into my head and start to ruin my hobby experience...I don't care how high the stakes of the game are.

The moment I start to think in the middle of a game 'hey, I wonder if this guy is cheating me with loaded dice' is the day I personally feel I need to put away my miniatures and get another hobby because I've lost sight of what I'm actually supposed to be doing with this hobby, which is having fun playing a game.

Who knows, maybe I've been cheated in the past and maybe I'll end up being cheated in the future but I will never, ever even consider for one moment that my opponent might be cheating me and let it ruin my game. If that's the level they need to sink to in order to win a game of Toy Soldiers, then god-bless them.

But for me, I'm just going to keep playing my game and enjoying myself and doing the best I can within the things I can actually control in order to win my game.

So yeah, as far as I'm concerned, bring on those dice rolling apps, or anything else you want to use that makes your hobby more enjoyable! I'll keep rolling my dice, but whatever floats your boat is fine with me.

**kill dem stunties**

Its like he said, its not difficult to tinker with a dice rolling app to add swipe etc commands to alter the next sets of rolls either positively or negatively.

So, you're both using the same app on the same phone, but when he hands it to you its set to roll poorly.

**yakface**

kill dem stunties wrote:Its like he said, its not difficult to tinker with a dice rolling app to add swipe etc commands to alter the next sets of rolls either positively or negatively.

So, you're both using the same app on the same phone, but when he hands it to you its set to roll poorly.

And that's so much easier then cheating movement of models by a little bit, nudging models while your opponent's not looking or claiming stuff looks one way from your 'line of sight' when it actually doesn't?

The fact is, if someone WANTS to cheat, they're going to do it and you're not going to stop them without ruining your game double-checking every single thing they do.

So why should the 99.9% of gamers who would want to use a dice rolling app simply to speed up their game be denied the opportunity to embrace new helpful technologies because of the tiny fraction of gamers who might want to cheat to win games of toy soldiers (when they already have plenty of other means to do so at their disposal)?

As I said above, I don't personally want to use a dice rolling app (because I enjoy rolling dice), but if my opponent wants to use such a device, as long as he gives me the OPTION to use the same app to roll my dice, then I am not going to be part of ridiculous paranoia and deny him the use of something that would make his game more enjoyable.

**Scott-S6**

Personally, I've yet to see an app that was sufficiently well designed to be quicker than dice.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

TheBlackVanguard wrote:
In a tournament game, I'm not sure I'd let it fly simply because it will almost assuredly be at least average rolling, whereas you can have that 50 1's stroke of major bad luck roll with real dice.

Why do you say that? Unless it's rigged the results are no more "average" than dice.

**kronk**

I prefer dice. I don't mind waiting while you get 148 dice for your charging boyz.

**grizgrin**

I just started teaching myself to program android apps, and a dice roller is BIG on my list. Something simple, would really only be useful for the overly large numbers. I am a bug player, sometimes.

I would be very willing to let my opponent use my app, no problem. Just be careful handling my phone please! lol

As far as cheaters, sure it would be easy. However, no matter the type or volume of cheating going on in a game, the fact that cheating is going on will be detected over a long enough period of time or great enough number of games. What you do about that is your own call, but I think yak has the right of it.

**yakface**

Scott-S6 wrote:Personally, I've yet to see an app that was sufficiently well designed to be quicker than dice.

As mentioned above, try 'mach dice' on the iphone. It breaks down your results by how many sixes were rolled, how many fives were rolled, etc.

So if you're dealing with any kind of massive rolling situation (as happens with Orks rolling 35+ dice to shoot or assault, for example) the app DEFINITELY speeds things up. You don't have to go searching through all the dice trying to count up results and you don't have to take the time to collect the dice up and roll again.

Again, its not for me personally, but it is absolutely a useful tool for speeding up the game.

**burning_phoneix**

? Even in the hardest hardcore tournaments, the prizes are almost always just MORE product for the game. So at the end of the day really what have you lost if you've lost a game to purported 'cheater'? Not much.

Battalion boxes ain't cheap down here.

**yakface**

burning_phoneix wrote:
? Even in the hardest hardcore tournaments, the prizes are almost always just MORE product for the game. So at the end of the day really what have you lost if you've lost a game to purported 'cheater'? Not much.

Battalion boxes ain't cheap down here.

Oh I know there are some BIG prizes out there, especially at major tournies like Adepticon. But if there are people out there who are regularly cheating, they're not doing it for the prizes, but simply for the thrill of cheating and/or because they really want to be the 'winner' of something...both of which to any sane person are absolutely idiotic reasons to cheat at a game of toy soldiers.

But my point is, that there are so many different ways for someone to cheat you if they really want to do that, they're going to. And if you spend your whole game trying to catch any of the dozens of easy ways for someone to cheat not only are you likely not going to have any fun playing the game, but I guarantee that you're going to make your opponent miserable and given that 99% of the people you play DON'T cheat, your paranoia is actually the thing that's ruining games, rather than the alleged cheating.

So IMHO:

If you're playing tournaments for the prizes its probably time to find a new hobby.
If you're actually concerned about people cheating you in your games of toy soldiers its probably time to find a new hobby.

Toy soldier games are not designed with enough rigidity to ever be cheat proof. The mere fact that the way each player measures and moves his models isn't exact means that the game can never be unquestionably fair.

So we all need to get past worrying about who is potentially cheating and just focus on enjoying the game.

**Scott-S6**

yakface wrote:
Scott-S6 wrote:Personally, I've yet to see an app that was sufficiently well designed to be quicker than dice.

As mentioned above, try 'mach dice' on the iphone. It breaks down your results by how many sixes were rolled, how many fives were rolled, etc.

So if you're dealing with any kind of massive rolling situation (as happens with Orks rolling 35+ dice to shoot or assault, for example) the app DEFINITELY speeds things up. You don't have to go searching through all the dice trying to count up results and you don't have to take the time to collect the dice up and roll again.

Again, its not for me personally, but it is absolutely a useful tool for speeding up the game.

There are a couple of android apps that work exactly the same way. I don't find them to be enough of a timesaver. On the other hand, I have colour coded quantities of dice (10 reds, 20 greens, 30 blues, etc) makes big rolls easier.

**Gymnogyps**

This is why I'm hesitant on dice rolling apps... it is too easy to NOT program the app well, leading to results that are not truly random. Any system will trend one way or another, even if it just trends to average rolls. I understand that this may not matter for the small sample size of the games. But I would always be wondering... who validated the app, and what system parameters were measured? Why not just skip the app, go to a probability table, and use the most likely result?

The other side of my inherent caution on dice roller apps... The examples of normal cheating provided can possibly be observed and caught by me, or other observers. This matters because I have at least a chance to catch it and put a stop to it. I don't have to think about it, I just need to be engaged in the game. Tweaking a dice roller app, or using one that was built poorly, would be very difficult for me to detect, if not impossible. Its one thing to be beaten by a cheater who risks getting caught. It is another to be baby-seal-clubbed by someone who takes little to no risk of repercussions. Hypothetical dude could always say, "I'm not cheating, its the app!" Which may be true. But it also may be that Dude picked an app with an inherent system trend to roll a certain way, so could tweak his own strategy accordingly.

It also takes quite a bit of skill and hutzpah to cheat well manually. But flicking an app setting? Come on. If you're gonna cheat, at least work for it a little bit!

Oh, finally, I don't really think about cheating at all (OK, well, except when responding to posts). This is why I believe that cheating should be harder to do and contain some inherent risk, so I can continue to not think about it.

I think using a dice roller app allows people to start blaming, or considering, the app (or cheating via the app) as part of the game. Using an app can at least bring doubt, and at worse considerations of cheating, along with it.

**WarWizard91**

I don't think anyone is going to pull a fast one on me with the old Ipod, but why would someone want to use one anyway? Dice seem just as much a part of the game as models do. So what if it takes a couple extra seconds to sift through your rolled results, it's not like it is some long laborious process even with 30+ dice.

**Balance**

I admit there's a certain 'emotional' pull towards dice even if I rationally understand that the pseudorandomness of a die roller app may exceed the randomness of dice (due to dice being not-quite-perfect as has been discussed here ad nauseum).

Then again, i really don't like the "Buckets O' Dice" concept in a lot of games, at least not these days.I try to max out at 4-6 dice per roll.

**RisingPhoenix**

I'm surprised someone is suggesting that dice are more accurate than programs when the problems with chessex dice are well known and understood.

Basically, most chessex dice are so badly made that they tend to roll irregularly. While this seems semi-random, in practice it means certain sets of dice just plain roll better than others. Dump the bad sets, keep the good sets, and you have a well-made cheat already (how many times have you seen people with 'lucky dice' or retire a set of dice because they 'suck'? People do this already).

A good randomization program dice roller is legally speaking random enough to be used for casino purposes. That's very, very random (their tolerance on inaccuracies on dice is 1/5000". The tolerance on most chessex appears to be about 1/16" or worse).

**Mad4Minis**

If your too lazy to roll dice then maybe tabletop gaming isnt for you...perhaps its time for an xbox or playstation.

**Scott-S6**

The problem is, how do you know its a good randomization program?

There was a guy on here who'd written one - he didn't know what the random algorithm he was using was and wasn't giving it a new seed each time.

I was talking to someone else on another forum who'd written one that always gave average results. His understanding of probability was so poor he actually thought that was a good thing.

**Mad4Minis**

RisingPhoenix wrote:

Basically, most chessex dice are so badly made that they tend to roll irregularly. While this seems semi-random, in practice it means certain sets of dice just plain roll better than others. Dump the bad sets, keep the good sets, and you have a well-made cheat already (how many times have you seen people with 'lucky dice' or retire a set of dice because they 'suck'? People do this already).

Truth. Several times Ive bought a cool set of dice and had to leave them in the bag because they rolled like garbage.

**RisingPhoenix**

Scott-S6 wrote:The problem is, how do you know its a good randomization program?

There was a guy on here who'd written one - he didn't know what the random algorithm he was using was and wasn't giving it a new seed each time.

I was talking to someone else on another forum who'd written one that always gave average results. His understanding of probability was so poor he actually thought that was a good thing.

Okay, want to make a well made one?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mersenne_twister

There we go. Grab the Mersenne Twister code (there's many freeware implementations), throw on a basic dice rolling entry (number of dice, threshold for 'pass') and go to town. The twister is reasonable quality random - suitable for many cryptography applications.

**Scott-S6**

Not really. That's probably what I would use if I was to do so though. Or possibly Yarrow.

Most people just use the default random function of the language they're using - almost always an LCG.