Black Templars Chaplains and Lightning Claws

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**LordWaffles**

On that note it's very hard to juggle anything while wearing lightning claws, the things are huge and ungainly.

But no I've always assumed that he could put the crozius on a belt loop or maglock it somewhere, what with the fact that his Lclaws are infinitely better in every way and in no way will he ever use a crozius again.

I mean you pay an extra five points to get a pair, but this edition that five points goes up in smoke because we follow the rules to the letter without any interpretation or variance given for older codexes where the obvious intent goes against the raw of the current edition? Sad times.

That being said I think my Master of Sanctity might be grabbing the fist from the armoury, the BT need more fist swings anyway.

**DeathReaper**

don_mondo wrote:
geordie09 wrote:okay... theres alot of posts here and I haven't got time to read them all. It's getting late.

A pair of Lightning Claws gives you +1. Correct!

Use of A Lightning Claw and the Crozious negates the bonus. Correct?

Since the Crozious does nothing for you, (no strength increase like a PF or re-rolls like Master Crafted) because it's just a power weapon... wouldn't you always use the LC's and leave the Crozious in the back of the Rhino?

No, doesn't matter which one (or two) you use. Possession of both negates the bonus, having to choose between them negates the bonus. Doesn't matter what you choose to attack with. Show me where it describes how you choose which special weapon to use. And then read the entire rule, to include the sentence containing the word "never".

Nuff said?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote: The Two Different Special Close combat weapons only come into argument if The Chaplain only holds a single lightning Claw and the Crozius.

Two different special weapons
When it is their turn to attack, these models must choose which weapon to use that turn, but they never get the bonus attack for using two weapons (such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons!).

Does the Chaplain have two different special weapons? Does the Chaplain have to choose between two different special weapons?

Yes to both, which means "never" kicks in and the rule says I don't care what other weapons you might have, never means never and is going to override any other rules (barring them saying they overrule this one, of course).

And for those wanting to argue intent......... Yeah, two special weapons is too complex (such is the penalty" bit) so having more than that makes it easier? Yeah, right, and I've always found juggling 4 or 5 balls easier than juggling 3 balls. Not! Sure, the two lighting claws rule says +1 attack, as long as those are the only special weapons you are equipped with. Add more stuff, and it all starts going downhill as you start trying to juggle those extra balls and wind up dropping more than you catch.

If they are using Two different special weapons then they follow this, otherwise they follow the rules for using Two of the same special weapon.

Key Terms are Using, and Wielding.

RAW you get the +1 attack for using/wielding 2 LC's

and you do not if you are using/wielding 1 LC and 1 Crozius.

they could have five different special weapons, but the two the model uses are the rules you go by.

**Gwar!**

DeathReaper wrote:RAW you get the +1 attack for using/wielding 2 LC's

and you do not if you are using/wielding 1 LC and 1 Crozius.

they could have five different special weapons, but the two the model uses are the rules you go by.

Do you even know what RaW means? From your posts, I don't think you do.

The rules very clearly state that if you have had to choose between special weapons, you can NEVER (Hint: This means not ever) get the bonus attack for 2 weapons.

**DeathReaper**

Gwar! wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:RAW you get the +1 attack for using/wielding 2 LC's

and you do not if you are using/wielding 1 LC and 1 Crozius.

they could have five different special weapons, but the two the model uses are the rules you go by.
Do you even know what RaW means? From your posts, I don't think you do.

The rules very clearly state that if you have had to choose between special weapons, you can NEVER (Hint: This means not ever) get the bonus attack for 2 weapons.

It states you do not get the +1 attack for USING two different special weapons.

It even goes on to say 'Such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons.'

Simply having two different weapons only means you have options on which rules you would like to use.

**Xca|iber**

"Some models are equipped with two single handed weapons they can use in close combat, with the rules given below for the different possible combinations."

"Two different special weapons" (defined by the above as a combination of equipped weapons that they can use).

"...choose which weapon to use that turn, but they NEVER get the bonus attack..."

Given the above quotes, the subheader "Two Different Special Weapons" is, as defined by the main paragraph of "Two Single Handed Weapons," a combination of equipped weapons they can use in close combat.

It then goes on to state under those rules that, as part of meeting the requirements of the subheader (implied; the choice of weapon has no relevance), they NEVER gain the bonus attack.

Does the chaplain meet the requirements of the subheader "Two Different Special Weapons"? Yes. He has LC, LC, Crozius. Two of those are different. He gains no bonus attack.

If you want to argue that the RAW only applies when equipped with two weapons, then the rules do not cover the situation. In that case, now you're begging for house rules. As a Templars player with an old codex, there are more important house rules that need to be in play for the army to work properly.

I am a Templars player; they are my primary army. You DO NOT NEED a 6 attack chaplain with lightning claws. 5 attacks is plenty good, and already better than what other marine codices get for non-SCs. Besides, we're talking about a Chaplain, which is already a beastly character with amazing options and rules. Templars have the best Chaplains currently available. Be happy with what you have.

**LordWaffles**

Xca|iber wrote:I am a Templars player; they are my primary army. You DO NOT NEED a 6 attack chaplain with lightning claws. 5 attacks is plenty good, and already better than what other marine codices get for non-SCs. Besides, we're talking about a Chaplain, which is already a beastly character with amazing options and rules. Templars have the best Chaplains currently available. Be happy with what you have.

I will actually disagree as often it's hard to negotiate buying the terminator armor for him(As he needs to be leading foot squads) or spending the marines worth points for another attack. Also on terms of needs, with so many t5 and t6 multi-wound models out there I'd argue he could use even more attacks. Killing thunderwolf cavalry is damn near impossible with a master.

But need and want are not the discussion, the discussion is the raw context of it. I'd say argue it out, that or give me back five points for my second lightning claw that I can't use. Though I don't think anyone would have the beard full of neck to actually try and call this.
"Crafty Templar are trying to use dual LC's and NOT use the glowy stick of office? NOT ON MY WATCH."

**DeathReaper**

Xca|iber wrote:"Some models are equipped with two single handed weapons they can use in close combat, with the rules given below for the different possible combinations."...

Note they are equipped with two single handed weapons they can use

Allowing them the use of only two single handed weapons in any given combat, no more no less, mo matter how many they may have.

Which two they use will determine the rules they use:

If they use two of the same special weapon, you use the rules for 'two of the same special weapon'.

If they use two different special weapons, you use the rules for 'two different special weapons'.

**Gwar!**

DeathReaper wrote:
Xca|iber wrote:"Some models are equipped with two single handed weapons they can use in close combat, with the rules given below for the different possible combinations."...

Note they are equipped with two single handed weapons they can use

By that logic Models with 3 Special CCW can never ever use the 3rd one...

**LordWaffles**

Gwar! wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:
Xca|iber wrote:"Some models are equipped with two single handed weapons they can use in close combat, with the rules given below for the different possible combinations."...

Note they are equipped with two single handed weapons they can use
By that logic Models with 3 Special CCW can never ever use the 3rd one...

Usually models only have but two hands to smite unbelievers with.

**don_mondo**

Gwar! wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:
Xca|iber wrote:"Some models are equipped with two single handed weapons they can use in close combat, with the rules given below for the different possible combinations."...

Note they are equipped with two single handed weapons they can use
By that logic Models with 3 Special CCW can never ever use the 3rd one...

Actually, since there are no rules to cover it, I guess models with three or more possible close combat weapons default to no attacks except those on their profile, and no special weapon abilities may be used.................

Or we could just follow the rules

**Mahtamori**

Multitude of normal close combat weapons are fine, but if the model has 2 or more special close combat weapons they do not get additional attacks for it. Also, a model like that would only get one additional attack for 2+ close combat weapons

However, models which have 3+ gripping limbs capable of having weapons with special rules will have unique rules detailing how to deal with this situation.

**geordie09**

Okay so, being armed with both a pair of LC's and the Crozious negates the bonus. I'm down with that... but wouldn't it have been better for GW to just limit the Rec to one LC instead of giving you a pair for an extra 5 pts which whilst not penalising you as you still won't get the +1, costs you 5 pts for essentially NOWT?

**nosferatu1001**

geordie09 wrote:Okay so, being armed with both a pair of LC's and the Crozious negates the bonus. I'm down with that... but wouldn't it have been better for GW to just limit the Rec to one LC instead of giving you a pair for an extra 5 pts which whilst not penalising you as you still won't get the +1, costs you 5 pts for essentially NOWT?

Because they couldnt see the future?

BT wasnt released in 5th ed, so they probably couldnt anticipate the rules change,....

**geordie09**

nosferatu1001 wrote:
geordie09 wrote:Okay so, being armed with both a pair of LC's and the Crozious negates the bonus. I'm down with that... but wouldn't it have been better for GW to just limit the Rec to one LC instead of giving you a pair for an extra 5 pts which whilst not penalising you as you still won't get the +1, costs you 5 pts for essentially NOWT?

Because they couldnt see the future?

BT wasnt released in 5th ed, so they probably couldnt anticipate the rules change,....

Thats a decent point...

**DeathReaper**

geordie09 wrote:Okay so, being armed with both a pair of LC's and the Crozious negates the bonus. I'm down with that... but wouldn't it have been better for GW to just limit the Rec to one LC instead of giving you a pair for an extra 5 pts which whilst not penalising you as you still won't get the +1, costs you 5 pts for essentially NOWT?

Just being equipped with multiple weapons does not negate the rules for the weapons you are using.

since P.42 says 'Some models are equipped with two single-handed weapons they can USE in close combat...'

Therefore the actual weapons USED in said combat determine what weapon rules you would use in said combat.

**Kommissar Kel**

Death reaper; you are misquoting. it is weapon. Singular. not Weapons plural.

You only choose 1 weapon to use when you have the choice between weapons, and you only have the choice between weapons when you have multiple special weapons.

**Nigglesworth**

Is it possible to model your chaplain without a crozius and claim WYSIWYG, only leaving you with the two lightning claws?

**DeathReaper**

Kommissar Kel wrote:Death reaper; you are misquoting. it is weapon. Singular. not Weapons plural.

You only choose 1 weapon to use when you have the choice between weapons, and you only have the choice between weapons when you have multiple special weapons.

I am not misquoting.

P. 42 clearly states that 'Some models are equipped with two single-handed weapons they can USE in close combat...' (under the 'Fighting with two single-handed weapons at the beginning of said section)

If you are using "Two different special weapons" '...chose which weapon to use that turn...'

If you are using "Two of the same special weapon" 'These models gain one additional attack...'

so it matters what you are using, not what you are equipped with. What weapons you are using will determine the rules set that you use for that fight.

Bottom line is, if you are not using "Two different special weapons", then you do not use the rules for such.

**Xca|iber**

DeathReaper wrote:
If you are using "Two different special weapons" '...chose which weapon to use that turn...'

If you are using "Two of the same special weapon" 'These models gain one additional attack...'

It never says this. There are simply headings, to which the player is referred by the ruleset, given the relevant wargear combinations.

**DeathReaper**

Xca|iber wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:
If you are using "Two different special weapons" '...chose which weapon to use that turn...'

If you are using "Two of the same special weapon" 'These models gain one additional attack...'

It never says this. There are simply headings, to which the player is referred by the ruleset, given the relevant wargear combinations.

It says it under the 'Fighting with two single-handed weapons' at the beginning of the section

'Some models are equipped with two single-handed weapons they can USE in close combat...' thus it is what they are using that determines the rules they use, not what they are equipped with.

It makes the distinction that you have to be using the weapon for the rule to apply.

**Grakmar**

Mahtamori wrote:...and the same as with Eldrad (pistol, Witchblade, staff).

I didn't see anyone else catch this. But, Mahtamori, Eldrad's staff is actually just an item of wargear that modifies his CC attacks, it's not an actual weapon. It's more like a mandiblaster than a Singing Spear.

Edit: This statement was wrong, see below.

**Gwar!**

Grakmar wrote:
Mahtamori wrote:...and the same as with Eldrad (pistol, Witchblade, staff).

I didn't see anyone else catch this. But, Mahtamori, Eldrad's staff is actually just an item of wargear that modifies his CC attacks, it's not an actual weapon. It's more like a mandiblaster than a Singing Spear.

Errm... What?

Page 51, Codex: Eldar:
In combat it always wounds on a roll of...

It is a close combat weapon, he has that, a Witchblade and a Pistol, so has to choose what one to use.

It doesn't make his witchblade ignore Armour, and it doesn't count as S9 vs vehicles. They are two separate weapons.

**nosferatu1001**

DR - except it also states that simply having (being equipped with) means you have to make a choice as to whcih weapon to USE, as you are so fond of caps on this word, meaning you are still denied the extra attack.
NEVER is a very strong word. THe fluff reason for it (complexity and all that) is also very compelling - your argument is that having two different special weapons will deny an attack, but having *3*, a MORE complex situation, will result in the extra attack?

**don_mondo**

Yeah, you notice they all keep ignoring that "complexity" issue.........?

**Grakmar**

Gwar! wrote:
Grakmar wrote:
Mahtamori wrote:...and the same as with Eldrad (pistol, Witchblade, staff).

I didn't see anyone else catch this. But, Mahtamori, Eldrad's staff is actually just an item of wargear that modifies his CC attacks, it's not an actual weapon. It's more like a mandiblaster than a Singing Spear.
Errm... What?

Page 51, Codex: Eldar:
In combat it always wounds on a roll of...

It is a close combat weapon, he has that, a Witchblade and a Pistol, so has to choose what one to use.

It doesn't make his witchblade ignore Armour, and it doesn't count as S9 vs vehicles. They are two separate weapons.

Ah, my mistake. So, I guess he does have 2 special CCWs and 1 normal one. Thanks, Gwar!

I now will feel a little awkward when using the Staff + pistol because I think the staff should be 2-handed. But, it doesn't say it is...

**Gwar!**

Grakmar wrote:Ah, my mistake. So, I guess he does have 2 special CCWs and 1 normal one. Thanks, Gwar!

I now will feel a little awkward when using the Staff + pistol because I think the staff should be 2-handed. But, it doesn't say it is...

You should feel awkward because you don't get the bonus attack even if you do that.

You had to choose between your special CC, so can NEVER get the bonus attack.

**Grakmar**

Gwar! wrote:
Grakmar wrote:Ah, my mistake. So, I guess he does have 2 special CCWs and 1 normal one. Thanks, Gwar!

I now will feel a little awkward when using the Staff + pistol because I think the staff should be 2-handed. But, it doesn't say it is...
You should feel awkward because you don't get the bonus attack even if you do that.
You had to choose between your special CC, so can NEVER get the bonus attack.

But, I thought that with Eldrad's weaponry, I could choose between his 2 special CCWs, but then use his pistol to gain the bonus attack.

So, my options would be:
1) Spear + Pistol
2) Witchblade + Pistol

Either one would grant the bonus for 2 CCWs.

**don_mondo**

No, because once you go to the act of choosing between two different special weapon, you NEVER (there's that word again) get +1 attack for using two weapons.

**Grakmar**

don_mondo wrote:No, because once you go to the act of choosing between two different special weapon, you NEVER (there's that word again) get +1 attack for using two weapons.

Well, page 42 is a little ambiguous. It lists "the rules given below for for the different possible combinations". But, it only has "A normal and a special weapon" that does grant +1 attack, and "Two different special weapons" that does not grant +1 attack. Eldrad either doesn't fit into either of these categories or he fits into both, as he has "A normal and two different special weapons".

**Gwar!**

Grakmar wrote:
don_mondo wrote:No, because once you go to the act of choosing between two different special weapon, you NEVER (there's that word again) get +1 attack for using two weapons.

Well, page 42 is a little ambiguous. It lists "the rules given below for for the different possible combinations". But, it only has "A normal and a special weapon" that does grant +1 attack, and "Two different special weapons" that does not grant +1 attack. Eldrad either doesn't fit into either of these categories or he fits into both, as he has "A normal and two different special weapons".

So, he fits into both.

One says he can get the attack, the other says he can NEVER get it.

Which one do you think wins?