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Gwar! wrote:

Grakmar wrote:

don_mondo wrote:No, because once you go to the act of choosing between two different special weapon, you NEVER (there's that word again) get +1 attack for using two weapons.

Well, page 42 is a little ambiguous. It lists "the rules given below for for the different possible combinations". But, it only has "A normal and a special weapon" that does grant +1 attack, and "Two different special weapons" that does not grant +1 attack. Eldrad either doesn't fit into either of these categories or he fits into both, as he has "A normal and two different special weapons".

So, he fits into both.

One says he can get the attack, the other says he can NEVER get it.

Which one do you think wins?

Well, when you change font sizes like that, it's not really a fair fight between the two

I respectfully disagree with how this should be interpreted and will be in favor of making a house rule to adjust it. But, I concede that from RAW, he wouldn't get a bonus attack.

(Poor Eldrad, you're even more worthless at killing things than I had thought But, you are the best buffing model in the game! )

Grakmar wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Grakmar wrote:

don_mondo wrote:No, because once you go to the act of choosing between two different special weapon, you NEVER (there's that word again) get +1 attack for using two weapons.

Well, page 42 is a little ambiguous. It lists "the rules given below for for the different possible combinations". But, it only has "A normal and a special weapon" that does grant +1 attack, and "Two different special weapons" that does not grant +1 attack. Eldrad either doesn't fit into either of these categories or he fits into both, as he has "A normal and two different special weapons".

So, he fits into both.

One says he can get the attack, the other says he can NEVER get it.

Which one do you think wins?

Well, when you change font sizes like that, it's not really a fair fight between the two

I respectfully disagree with how this should be interpreted and will be in favor of making a house rule to adjust it. But, I concede that from RAW, he wouldn't get a bonus attack.

(Poor Eldrad, you're even more worthless at killing things than I had thought But, you are the best buffing model in the game! )

They NEVER get the extra attack if they are wielding/using two different special weapons.

They will get the extra attack if they are wielding/using two of the same special weapon.

If the model is using/wielding dual LC's they will get the extra attack even if they have a crozius in its sheath/hanging off their belt etc.

When a model uses two different special weapons thats when they never get the +1 attack, since they are wielding/using two different specials.

Though the rules do not state what happens if you have 3 special weapons (By Strict RAW) But the rules do say its what weapons you are using/wielding that matters and not simply what you are equipped with.

Except that isnt true, as the rules quotes have shown.

You are ignoring the NEVER waaaay too much here.

OK, hijacking my own thread a bit there, what's so ambiguous about the part on pg. 30 of the Black Templars Codex? It does clearly state that you lose your old weapon(s) if you buy upgrade weapons. Thus, if I buy one lightning claw for my chaplain, he loses his crozius. If I buy two, he loses his crozius and the only weapons I have is LCs, yes?


Hmm, now that I think abou it, wouldn't this mean that if you took a pfist for "versatility" you'd end up with only a fist, as it's an upgrade?

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except that isnt true, as the rules quotes have shown.

You are ignoring the NEVER waaaay too much here.

I am not ignoring the never. it is what you use/wield determines the rule set that you use. Its only never when you use/wield two different special weapons. Simply having two special weapons means nothing, by the rules you have to use them to gain any benefit. Since we know a model can only use two single-handed weapons at a time, we then know that a third weapon hanging at the side adds nothing to the combat.

so the steps for having 3 or more CCW's look like this

1. Determine what CCW's you will use for the combat.

2. Determine what category those two weapons fall into.

and thus never does not even come into play unless you use/wield two different special weapons.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:OK, hijacking my own thread a bit there, what's so ambiguous about the part on pg. 30 of the Black Templars Codex? It does clearly state that you lose your old weapon(s) if you buy upgrade weapons. Thus, if I buy one lightning claw for my chaplain, he loses his crozius. If I buy two, he loses his crozius and the only weapons I have is LCs, yes?


Hmm, now that I think abou it, wouldn't this mean that if you took a pfist for "versatility" you'd end up with only a fist, as it's an upgrade?

Yes if it states you lose the crozius then "he loses his crozius and the only weapons [you] have is LCs"

but either way you are good, even if he had his crozius still (See my post above)

Either way you arent good, see the other 3 pages of people disproving DR.

Have you CHOSEN which special CCW to use? Then you may NEVER gain the bonus. Whether you attempt to obfuscate by trying to pretend you havent chosen until you only had 2 weapons left or not, you have still chosen.

Never is really, really, REALLY strong.

Having read the thread again, more carefully, supposedly there's some sort of controversy about the templar chaps being able to take 2 LCs legally at all. Why is this?

Just wanted to note that ustilizing army builder to build a BT list, you can take the 1st LC as an extra weapon but in order to take a second LC you need to then drop the crozius.

Not claiming AB as a definitive source for all rules and equipping models but thought it was interesting it was set-up this way.

From a personal standpoint I disagree with those stating that taking the 2 LCs and having a 3rd weapon automatically loses you the extra attack. I have read all of the posts and have seen nothing that would convince me of the other position. I think the folks attempting to defend the loss of attack position are demonstrating rules lawyering at its worst. The dual LC wielding model is well known to benefit from the extra attack but some folks just seem to take the opposite point of view to either be difficult or gain some benefit for their own little plastic army in a game that is supposed to be fun. Some rules are clearly written and some seem fairly universally clear in their intent, but certain types of people would rather ignore the second part of this just because they can.

You do not need to be Jervis Johnson or Gav Thorpe or Matt Ward to have a reasonable understanding of intent of something that is written by a third party, but you do have to have a modicum of reasonableness and a willingness to play a game the way it was probably intended.

If you asked a reasonable person with knowledge of the rules and the game if a model with 2 LCs would get an extra attack the answer would be yes. If you asked that same reasonable person if the same would apply if that model somehow picked up a shiny sword laying on the ground and stuck it in his belt the answer would still be yes even though that model now had a 3rd weapon, as a reasonable person would still expect that model to fight with his two LC and not the sword in his belt.

If I were in a game we someone like this I would let them have their way, finish the game and then avoid them like the plague from that point on. In my opinion, in some of these rules discussions, a bit of common sense and reasonableness would go a long way towards resolving some of these issues. I think to often we are looking to make things more difficult than they have to be, or some would be lawyer, is obviously frustrated and wants to show us all how smart they are in pointing out loopholes in the rules.

Death reaper; when you are equipped with more than 1 special weapons, you only get to USE 1 weapon(not 1 pair of weapons, not 1 special and 1 normal: 1 weapon) The fact that when you are presented with a choice, you can only choose to use 1 means you are never going to gain the benefits of fighting with 2 weapons.


almightyWalrus; that rule is there for troopers taking upgrades(anything listed under "options" in the army list), the armory is for Characters and simply states that you may select 2 weapons, only one of which may be two-handed.

This is also thew crux of the issue, when the codex was written the BRB told us how to deal with armory purchases, this no longer exists in 5 th edition.

edit: sorry got your name wrong

nosferatu1001 wrote:Either way you arent good, see the other 3 pages of people disproving DR.

Have you CHOSEN which special CCW to use? Then you may NEVER gain the bonus. Whether you attempt to obfuscate by trying to pretend you havent chosen until you only had 2 weapons left or not, you have still chosen.

Never is really, really, REALLY strong.

"Have you CHOSEN which special CCW to use?"

No, your choice only matters if you are WIELDING two different special weapons.

I have yet to see anything disproving that simply having three weapons prevents you from gaining a +1 attack it only makes a distinction for what weapons you are using/wielding.

and "Never is really, really, REALLY strong." if you are using/wielding 'two different special weapons' that rule will apply.

However you are not using/wielding 'two different special weapons', you do not use the rules for such, since you are using/wielding 'two of the same special weapon' in this case the 2 LC's.

A special weapon not in use (hanging at your side, or still in its sheath) has no bearing on the combat.

therefore models armed with power sword, bolt pistol, power fist, force weapon, dual lightning claws, and a crozius arcanum have many options on which rules to use dependent on which two weapons they chose to use/wield. since we can not determine what rules to look at till we see what two weapons the model will use in any given situation, we then have to determine which two we will use and look at the rules for that set of weapons.

Reaper: even if you could choose the 2 weapons you are useing/wielding(you cant as I keep telling you, you only choose to use/wield 1) you still have to make a choice by being equipped with multiple special weapons. That Choice alone means that you are fighting with 2 special weapons and as such you do not gain the bonus attack(not Ever)

Hiamar - "it alwyas worked this way" is a REALLY bad argument to make.

It always used to be that youcould assault from a moving, closed topped transport (3rd ed) therefore you should still be able to do it now.

You have ALWAYS been able to fire a heavy flamer plus multilaser after moving a chimera 6", so you can still do so now! (4th ed)

You could ALWAYS fire weapons from a firepoint after moving 12"! (4th ed)

See how that argument flounders? 5th ed has changed a LOT of rules and the rules for using weapons HAS changed. You can no longer gain an extra attack if you have 2 or more different special CCW. Deal with it, or houserule it, but know it IS a houserule.

DR - see above. You have no rules support for your position.

DeathReaper wrote:
"Have you CHOSEN which special CCW to use?"

No, your choice only matters if you are WIELDING two different special weapons.

Wrong. You are equipped with more than one special weapon, you have to choose between them, and that means no bonus attack.

As for not having seen anything, try reading our responses and the rules, it's all right there for you..........................

nosferatu1001 wrote:Hiamar - "it alwyas worked this way" is a REALLY bad argument to make.

It always used to be that youcould assault from a moving, closed topped transport (3rd ed) therefore you should still be able to do it now.

You have ALWAYS been able to fire a heavy flamer plus multilaser after moving a chimera 6", so you can still do so now! (4th ed)

You could ALWAYS fire weapons from a firepoint after moving 12"! (4th ed)

See how that argument flounders? 5th ed has changed a LOT of rules and the rules for using weapons HAS changed. You can no longer gain an extra attack if you have 2 or more different special CCW. Deal with it, or houserule it, but know it IS a houserule.

DR - see above. You have no rules support for your position.

P. 42 supports my position 'Some models are equipped with two single-handed weapons they can USE in close combat...' , it matters what you are using/wielding not what you have on you. The rulebook assumes that you only have 2 CCW's so when you have more than 2 you have to look at what you are using/wielding to determine your bonuses.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Reaper: even if you could choose the 2 weapons you are useing/wielding(you cant as I keep telling you, you only choose to use/wield 1) you still have to make a choice by being equipped with multiple special weapons. That Choice alone means that you are fighting with 2 special weapons and as such you do not gain the bonus attack(not Ever)

Being equipped with more than one special weapon only matters if you are using/wielding 'two different special weapons' simply having them does not stop you from using dual LC's


I suspect that when the BT book gets updated the chaplains wont even have an option for dual LC's, this is a Hypothesis however since the book is not out .

ARE EQUIPPED - you keep not bolding that, despite it being right there.

Have you chosen which weapon you want to fight with? Did you have more than one special, different CCW to choose from? If the answer is YES then you never gain the bonus.

You have been shown the rules, repeatedly, which show you are wrong on this.

Kommissar Kel wrote:
almightyWalrus; that rule is there for troopers taking upgrades(anything listed under "options" in the army list), the armory is for Characters and simply states that you may select 2 weapons, only one of which may be two-handed.

Ah, but upon looking at the Chaplain entry, it says "Options: A Chaplain can be given any equipment allowed from the Black Templars Armoury.". Thus, since the rule allowing me to purchase special weapons is under "options", I replace my base weapon (in this case the crozius) with my 2 lightning claws. At no point in the codex (that I've found at least) does it say that the rule regarding options only applies to troopers.

Reaper; Being equipped with multiple weapons means that you must make a choice as to which weapon to use, if you make that choice you are only able to choose 1 weapon, therefore can never gain the bonus for fighting with 2 weapons(because, you know, you are only fighting with 1 weapon). Please go back and read it again note when the word "Weapon" does, nad does not have an "S" on the end of it. That "S" denotes plurality(meaning more than 1), the lack of that "S" denotes singularity(1, and only 1). If you do this you will find that models Equipped with more than 1 weapon, must choose to Use only 1 weapon. You cannot, never, ever choose to use 2 Lightning claws, you can only choose to use 1 of them.

Walrus: Between the options rules on page 30, the Armory, and the individual options in the army list you will find the differences in when you do or do not exchange weapons(based on the Page 30 rules). Any Squad that can exchange basic weapons for upgrades actually tell you to replace the basic weapons, this satisfies the wording on page 30 that "upgrade weapons" replace basic weapons. Chaplains and similar characters that have the options listing in their armylisting simply tell you that they have access to the armory, and the armory simply tells you that you may select up to 2 weapons. now where between any of those 2 areas does it tell you that the Armory weapons are "upgrade weapons" nor does it tell you exactly which weapons would be replaced(that was in the core rulebooks when the codex came out).

Of course when 4th edition came out i never "upgraded" my Chaplain's(or librarian's) pistols to anything else, because I liked having the Free Power(/force) weapon(4th edition stated that all base weapons were lost if you selected any weapons from the armory; and games workshop actually told me when phoned that "it should work just like it did in 3rd", to which i replied then so should all the vehicle rules and every other rule you guys changed and why did I buy this "new edition" rule book if nothing actually changed).

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:
almightyWalrus; that rule is there for troopers taking upgrades(anything listed under "options" in the army list), the armory is for Characters and simply states that you may select 2 weapons, only one of which may be two-handed.

Ah, but upon looking at the Chaplain entry, it says "Options: A Chaplain can be given any equipment allowed from the Black Templars Armoury.". Thus, since the rule allowing me to purchase special weapons is under "options", I replace my base weapon (in this case the crozius) with my 2 lightning claws. At no point in the codex (that I've found at least) does it say that the rule regarding options only applies to troopers.

This is the only legitimate argument for Chaplains getting twin LCs and the bonus attack. Taking this approach, it comes down to whether you interpret "selecting from the armoury" to be the same as "taking an upgrade weapon." Since neither of those terms are well defined (since both have been phased out in 5th), it's unclear. Note that if you take the "replacement" approach, all other choices from the weapons section of the Armoury will also remove his Crozius. (Which is why I don't subscribe to that interpretation).

Like I said, I'm a Templars player and I've come to terms with the fact that I can win without that extra attack, and that RAW I shouldn't have it in the first place. Frankly the fact that my Chaplains can take a ton of awesome wargear more than makes up for one measly attack. Denying a player the bonus is not being TFG. Being TFG is not allowing BT Terminators the benefits of Terminator Armour since it's not listed in their wargear (so no 5+ save), or not letting anything benefit from zeal because no unit types are given in the codex.

nosferatu1001 wrote:ARE EQUIPPED - you keep not bolding that, despite it being right there.

Have you chosen which weapon you want to fight with? Did you have more than one special, different CCW to choose from? If the answer is YES then you never gain the bonus.

You have been shown the rules, repeatedly, which show you are wrong on this.

I am correct, the rules support me:

"Did you have more than one special, different CCW to choose from?" you have more than one, but are not using more than one, therefore you do not use the 'two different special weapons' since you are equipped with, but not using 'two different special weapons'.
You have to satisfy both the 'equipped' and the 'use' clause in this statement to make the statement true. so if you are not using a weapon you do not use any of the rules for said weapon. you have to follow all the rules.

Being equipped with something does not mean you have to use it. look at space marine tac. squad, they have a bolter and a bolt pistol, they get to chose which to fire with and use the rules for what they are actually using, instead of adding the rules for both to the situation.

Yes the rules seem a little ambiguous due to it not listing what happens if you have more than 2 CCW's but models that are equipped with 2 or more weapons may use any combination of them in CC, and thus you look to whatever you are using to derive your rules for that combat.

You have to be wielding/using 'two different special weapons' to follow the rules for 'two different special weapons' simply having one strapped to your hip does not add or subtract any rules.

DeathReaper wrote:You have to be wielding/using 'two different special weapons' to follow the rules for 'two different special weapons'

So you are saying that a model equiped with two different special weapons does not have to follow the rules for "two different special weapons?"

kirsanth wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:You have to be wielding/using 'two different special weapons' to follow the rules for 'two different special weapons'

So you are saying that a model equiped with two different special weapons does not have to follow the rules for "two different special weapons?"

That is what he is saying in the case of a model with 3 or more CCWs. Because, a model can only attack with 2 weapons, so if he has 2 special+1 normal, he can choose to just grab the 1 special+1 normal.

DeathReaper: The rules, unfortunately, don't really cover this. There is, in fact, nothing stating that a model is restricted to only using 2 CCWs at a time (or an equal number to the number of arms). And, there's no rule allowing you not to use a weapon you have. So, a model is assumed to be using every weapon it is equipped with. That means that it is always using 2 special weapons if it has 2 in it's inventory.

This isn't particularly logical, but that's the way it goes sometimes.

If it helps: Assume your models are all really dumb, and they take a while to decide which weapon loadout they want to attack with, and because they took so long, they loose the ability to get a bonus attack.

But, I do agree with your argument in spirit and hope this makes it into errata, or at least into 6th edition!

DR - no, really, just no. The rules do not support it because you entirely ignore the "are equipped" clause.

As soon as you are equpped with 2 or more different special CCW you can NEVER gain the bonus attack, as you must choose.

You also have ignored KKs excellent point. Dont let that stop you though.

Reaper if you are not using more than 1 because you chose to use another weapon(which you HAVE to do) you are still not using 2 weapons because you are Choosing to use 1 weapon, and as such you do not gain an additional attack(because you only gain that from using 2 weapons to begin with).

Kommissar Kel wrote:Reaper if you are not using more than 1 because you chose to use another weapon(which you HAVE to do) you are still not using 2 weapons because you are Choosing to use 1 weapon, and as such you do not gain an additional attack(because you only gain that from using 2 weapons to begin with).

kirsanth wrote:So you are saying that a model equiped with two different special weapons does not have to follow the rules for "two different special weapons?"

you can use 2 weapons to attack in CC. see below.

nosferatu1001 wrote:DR - no, really, just no. The rules do not support it because you entirely ignore the "are equipped" clause.

As soon as you are equpped with 2 or more different special CCW you can NEVER gain the bonus attack, as you must choose.

You also have ignored KKs excellent point. Dont let that stop you though.

I understand what you are trying to say about being equipped with multiple weapons, and I am not ignoring the equipped clause, i am reading the rest of it where it tells you that you can use those two weapons in CC.
I.E. if you are EQUIPPED with AND are USING... Both equipped and using have to apply, or the sentence does not.

So you have to be equipped with a weapon to use it, but you do not have to use a weapon you are equipped with. you have to be equipped with and be using 2 different special weapons for that rule to take effect.

note p.37 under number of attacks, second bullet point '+1 two weapons: engaged models with two single-handed weapons get an extra +1 attack. models with more than two weapons gain no additional benefit.' so having more than two weapons does nothing because you can only use two at a time, the two you use will determine the rules you use. if its dual LC then you get +1 attack, if its a Crozius and a Power fist, you do not get the +1 attack.

DeathReaper wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:Reaper if you are not using more than 1 because you chose to use another weapon(which you HAVE to do) you are still not using 2 weapons because you are Choosing to use 1 weapon, and as such you do not gain an additional attack(because you only gain that from using 2 weapons to begin with).

kirsanth wrote:So you are saying that a model equiped with two different special weapons does not have to follow the rules for "two different special weapons?"

you can use 2 weapons to attack in CC. see below.

not if you have to make a choice between Special Close combat weapons, see the rules.

Hint if you forget where they are it is the bottom section of the second column on page 42. Look to the 13th word under "Two different special weapons"; now is that word in the singular or plural?

Kommissar Kel wrote:
not if you have to make a choice between Special Close combat weapons, see the rules.

Hint if you forget where they are it is the bottom section of the second column on page 42. Look to the 13th word under "Two different special weapons"; now is that word in the singular or plural?

\

Yes!

"if you have to make a choice between Special Close combat weapons, see the rules."

If you are Using/Wielding 'Two different special weapons' you chose aka have to make a choice of which weapon to use that turn.

If you are Using/Wielding 'Two of the same special weapon' you get the bonus attack.

you have to use a weapon in order to use the rules for that weapon.

if you are not using a weapon you can not use the rules for that weapon.

Ok let's then go back to the Beginning of that section shall we; FIGHTING WITH TWO SINGLE-HANDED WEAPONS(caps used because that is direct from book): "Some models may be equipped with two single-handed weapons they can use in close combat, with the rules given below for the different possible combinations."

It then goes on to tell you 2handed weapons cannot be used with a second weapon(again support the only fighting with 1 weapon in some circumstances).

then we go through the 4 Types to see which ones we have available on our chaplain:
1)Two normal close combat weapons; no he doesn't have that
2) Two of the Same close combat weapons; well he does have two of the same, but then I see a few other types, I should keep reading.
3) A normal and a Special weapon; Hey look he has this too!, but wait there is one other type available, lets keep going.
4) Two different special weapons; Yep he definitely qualifies for this, but now how do i choose what type i get?

We know that he has a normal, and 3 specials, we also know that 2 of the special are the same and thus the 3rd is different, we are never given any options to choose which rules we need to use, so the only option we have is to use the most restrictive rule available, especially since it is the only rule that gives us an option as to which special weapon we may use to attack with.

Look back to the basis of the rules themselves; you need only to be equipped with the weapons in order to discover which weapon(or combination of weapons) you can use. If you are equipped with 2 different special weapons you must use that ruleset; no matter how many other rulesets you have available, because only the 2 different special weapons ruleset allows you to make any choice as to what weapon is used.

PS; lets just all agree to thank what ever deities we all believe in that the BT have no 2-handed Close combat weapons; there is literally NO way to figure out how a Chaplain with BP, Crozius and a 2 handed CCW(special or not) chooses to make his attacks.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Ok let's then go back to the Beginning of that section shall we; FIGHTING WITH TWO SINGLE-HANDED WEAPONS(caps used because that is direct from book): "Some models may be equipped with two single-handed weapons they can use in close combat, with the rules given below for the different possible combinations."

It then goes on to tell you 2handed weapons cannot be used with a second weapon(again support the only fighting with 1 weapon in some circumstances).

then we go through the 4 Types to see which ones we have available on our chaplain:
1)Two normal close combat weapons; no he doesn't have that
2) Two of the Same close combat weapons; well he does have two of the same, but then I see a few other types, I should keep reading.
3) A normal and a Special weapon; Hey look he has this too!, but wait there is one other type available, lets keep going.
4) Two different special weapons; Yep he definitely qualifies for this, but now how do i choose what type i get?

We know that he has a normal, and 3 specials, we also know that 2 of the special are the same and thus the 3rd is different, we are never given any options to choose which rules we need to use, so the only option we have is to use the most restrictive rule available, especially since it is the only rule that gives us an option as to which special weapon we may use to attack with.

Look back to the basis of the rules themselves; you need only to be equipped with the weapons in order to discover which weapon(or combination of weapons) you can use. If you are equipped with 2 different special weapons you must use that ruleset; no matter how many other rulesets you have available, because only the 2 different special weapons ruleset allows you to make any choice as to what weapon is used.

He qualifies for #4 only if he is "FIGHTING WITH TWO SINGLE-HANDED WEAPONS(caps used because that is direct from book)"

He is not Fighting with 'Two different special weapons.'

He is fighting with 'Two of the Same close combat weapons.'

Kommissar Kel wrote:"If you are equipped with 2 different special weapons you must use that ruleset"

You have to be equipped with and using 'Two different special weapons.' just being equipped does not follow the
"Some models may be equipped with two single-handed weapons they can use in close combat, with the rules given below for the different possible combinations." since it mentions you are equipped with and using. both apply. if you are not using a particular weapon you can not use the rules for said weapon.

if he is not Fighting with 2 singlehanded weapons(because he has 4) then none of the Types are available, and as such he does not get a bonus anyway.

Also it does not say "equipped with and Using" It says "Equipped with, that they can use"

You can use any of the 4(well only three based on the lack of options to use the normal once you get into the ruleset) Weapons you are equipped with; the only way to figure out which weapons you do use is to go through and find the subset of rules that best fit with what you are equipped with.

It seems after reading through the weapons section of the assault rules several times that the rules simply don't cover this at all. Superficially the rules would seem to state that no bonus attack is granted because of the need to choose...but if you look deeper the rules are only ever talking about two weapons. The idea that a character could have a special weapon and then a pair of special weapons which can be used together isn't even touched on within the rules. The assumption the rules make is that you either have a pair of special weapons listed as working together (e.g. power fist, lightning claws) or two different special weapons whose abilities must be chosen between (i.e. do I use the lightning claw in my left hand or the thunder hammer in my right).

So house rule it is.

On a related tangent someone earlier mentioned that the BT chaplain would actually trade in the Crozius but I can find no such reference in the codex.