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General Fuzzum wrote:Please give the Lord more then 4 ws/bs.
Please.
He's like older then anything. Ever. You think he woulda picked up some tricks along the way.

I have to agree with this. I know crons are not cc beasts, but I have to think that their ultimate leaders should be better than their rank and file warrior. WS/BS5 is perfectly good and not unreasonable.
Also I can't get behind your restructuring of the c'tan as walkers (and again with WS/BS4). Even at AV 14 they're hideously vulnerable compared to how they were. I do appreciate the increase to their movement though, so they are not so easily danced around.

Other than those complaints I have to say I really like most of the changes. The addition of the nobles and selection of warrior wargear, makes the standard warrior much more customizable than before. AP1 is perfectly fine, especially since only DE need to be worried about their vehicles from those weapons. Glad to see the boosts to the heavier gauss weapons though. About time the most advanced tech in the galaxy actually seems like thats what it is.

I see what you're getting at and I like the tactical implications but I think you're underestimating the toughness and reliability of this WBB. Currently necron models come back on a 4+ and squads sometimes can't respawn at all. With this rule they come back on a 4+ turn 2, 3+ turn 3, 2+ turn 4 etc and can always respawn as long as a lord/noble/monolith/tomb stalker/C'tan is alive.
Since the nobles are independent characters they can be put in squads (potentially large squads of warriors or stealthed flayed ones) making them hard to target without cc (which deepstrikers can't do the turn they arrive). They can also be put into barques making them even harder to kill.
Deepstriking units also generally deepstrike in the open to avoid terrain tests but against necrons anything in the open will get torn apart by AP1 shooting. Outflanking units can be screened by expendable squads that respawn next turn. Yes there are ways to kill power icons but those ways come with their own risks and counters that IMO make the power icons too easy to protect.
Think about it this way: if necron units are as good as those of other armies (in terms of killyness per point) and can also respawn then a 400 point necron squad can walk up the board kill 400 points of enemies, die and when they come back it will be as if the game just started over except now the necron player has a 400point advantage. Therefore necron units will have to be significantly worse than other units to be balanced (either by making them more expensive or less good at killing stuff). Making WBB better makes the line between invincible horde of death and overcosted junk much thinner.

(I also think you should add better anti-tank and anti-horde guns to your codex, currently it will perform much better against marine armies than orks or guard or daemons)

General Fuzzum:

Is there a reason that the Lord should have a better WS/BS than 4? I think I've already mentioned that I'd rather see HQ models enhance an army than do the heavy lifting. How does having a better WS/BS improve the player's opportunity to use more/different strategies and tactics? Remember it's now AV14 Living Metal Iv3+ rather than T8 Iv4+. Seems reasonable that even a skin of living metal might be burst like a bubble thanks to the titanic energies it contains, though that's strictly a representative varnish to cover the addition of a Jet Pack equipped Walker to the Necron arsenal.

Tortoiseer:

T8 is still vulnerable to S5, and a Iv4+ is pretty weak. Besides, Living Metal is vehicle wargear. To be honest it was added more as an afterthought than for any specific necessity of gameplay I could think of, although some people have clamoured for a Necron uber-Dreadnought.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
balthydes:

Game-wise I'm not worried about power so much as ensuring that the players have more live tactical and strategic options. Once you ensure a variety of live options, power balances itself.

So whereas previously We'll Be Back didn't require any reentry point, and negating it depended on strategy, the dependence on an entry point balances out with theW reliability of returning Revenants.

Consider the Independent Character status of the HQs, particularly the combinations of wargear allowed. While a Necron Noble may hide from direct fire in a massive unit of Necron Warriors, he'll be vulnerable to We'll Be Back, taking his Resurrection Orb with him if they fall back off the board. That's a "eggs in one basket" kind of risk that offsets the protection against shooting that Independent Character status confers.

If you want to mount them in Barques, then you're trading mobility and protection for another Necron Power Icon. The Barque itself is virtually unarmed. That's intentional.

Monoliths, Tomb Stalkers, and C'tan are neither Independent Characters nor Revenants. They're all very sturdy, but they can all be destroyed.

Similar to the trade off of Resurrection Orbs and Phylacteries, and similar items. Likewise a hefty bodyguard of Revenants can see off unsuccessful Deep Strikers, or outflankers, or perhaps absorb the impact and come back, but the risk is that they won't and the impact will be mulitplied by We'll Be Back.

That's why, unlike the old Tyranid "Without Number" rule, I decided against allowing Necron units to voluntarily engage in "We'll Be Back" (that's a premium with the Veil of Darkness) as a standard item, because there's got to be a risk to every advantage, and one that curves with the advantage it brings (twice the advantage has to carry more than twice the risk, else twice the advantage and twice the risk is the no brainer in a game of linear resources like Warhammer).

Similarly the flatness of Gauss weapons is a trade-off of trade-offs, making them less able to deal with extremes of armour and hordes. Again this forces Necron players to take risks in tournament situations.

I think one of the problems facing anyone writing an army list either for fun or profit, is writing a list, is that they want to balance the unique features of an army with the number of live strategies available. Having a single competitive build that simply duplicates what another army does is undesirable. In particular you don't want an army that telegraphs its strategy with its list.

The worst way to do this is to give an army the tools it needs to overcome any situation. Then the players just plonk for those tools and only those tools, and that's the single competitive build. A better way to do this is create a series of binary (or trinary) choices that cover some situations, but not others. For every advantage you gain somewhere, you lose it elsewhere.

So for We'll Be Back, you gain the advantage of recycling units, but you lose the advantage of longevity and toughness. You can lose entire units to bad Morale tests, they can be pinned down, they can fail to come back, and they're slow once they get there.

Necrons, by this design, are hard and brittle. Brittleness, as applied to games, means that when they fail something, they will fail by a large margin. A 405pt unit of Warriors fails a Morale test? They leave the board. A 200pt Lord joined to the unit leaves with them? Now neither might return. Phase Out. Maybe it was a bad idea to put all those eggs in one basket.

Or consider that while five units might We'll Be Back off the board in the bottom of the fifth game turn, you may only have three Necron Power Icons surviving until the top of the sixth turn when they all come back from reserves. They come back automatically when it's least convenient, but it's the open question of what you did to preserve re-entry points on the board that makes it interesting, that opens space for tactics, for player action on the board to make a difference.

Anyhow, a little insight into why I think that the We'll Be Back mechanic, the Gauss weapon configurations, and so on complement each other to make the game interesting (i.e. full of hard choices), and therefore fun for Necron players.

Sure S5 could wound them (on a 6), but at least one marine with a melta gun couldn't one shot a star god.

Anyways, a few questions

Pariahs are neither constructs nor revenants? Psyhcic abomination override those or something?

Sorry to harp on the WS/BS thing, but why the drop in wraith WS? Aren't they supposed to be the premier necron cc interceptor?

I'm curious as to the alterations to the tomb stalkers stat line. Mind elaborating a bit?

I'm really confused about WBB, it's longer and more confusing. Just do it as WBB now, FnP or put the entire unit into reserve and call it back via reserve rolls and comes in via deep strike or something.

No sure the point in power weapons and rending attacks? Only benefit is against vehicles.

mercer wrote:I'm really confused about WBB, it's longer and more confusing. Just do it as WBB now, FnP or put the entire unit into reserve and call it back via reserve rolls and comes in via deep strike or something.

No sure the point in power weapons and rending attacks? Only benefit is against vehicles.

The last part of your first sentence just described exactly how his new system works, except that the units "walk on" from power icons rather than deep striking (which be pretty unhelpful).
Just reread it; it's not that hard to understand.

While rending attacks are helpful against armor, both power weapons and rending attacks are also useful against things that have armor (like space marines maybe?). You know, the kinds of things every other faction uses power weapons against.

mercer wrote:I'm really confused about WBB, it's longer and more confusing. Just do it as WBB now, FnP or put the entire unit into reserve and call it back via reserve rolls and comes in via deep strike or something.

No sure the point in power weapons and rending attacks? Only benefit is against vehicles.

And on really-high T models. For Str 4, you'd need a model with 8+ toughness for it to make a difference and a wraithlord is the only model I can think of that fits that.

Tortoiseer wrote:

mercer wrote:I'm really confused about WBB, it's longer and more confusing. Just do it as WBB now, FnP or put the entire unit into reserve and call it back via reserve rolls and comes in via deep strike or something.

No sure the point in power weapons and rending attacks? Only benefit is against vehicles.

The last part of your first sentence just described exactly how his new system works, except that the units "walk on" from power icons rather than deep striking (which be pretty unhelpful).
Just reread it; it's not that hard to understand.

While rending attacks are helpful against armor, both power weapons and rending attacks are also useful against things that have armor (like space marines maybe?). You know, the kinds of things every other faction uses power weapons against.

It's too long winded going on about Necron icons and other specials rules. WBB is even easier than that currently.

Power weapons ignore armour saves, so do rending attacks, like I said rending only benefits against vehicles. My point is why have power weapons only work with dis fields with minimum advantages.

Grakmar wrote:

mercer wrote:I'm really confused about WBB, it's longer and more confusing. Just do it as WBB now, FnP or put the entire unit into reserve and call it back via reserve rolls and comes in via deep strike or something.

No sure the point in power weapons and rending attacks? Only benefit is against vehicles.

And on really-high T models. For Str 4, you'd need a model with 8+ toughness for it to make a difference and a wraithlord is the only model I can think of that fits that.

@nurgltch
I can see you've thought this through and come up with a very tactical codex. I would very much like to play with/against this army when you give it points costs.

@mercer
where does it say that power weapons are dependent on disruption fields?

balthydes wrote:@nurgltch
where does it say that power weapons are dependent on disruption fields?

It doesn't. It does however, give you the option of having both.
While perhaps not the most efficient combination, it may be useful if you have points to burn. On something like a wraith perhaps

Tortoiseer:

Regarding the Star-God, they're neither stars nor gods, just organisms that evolved on stars. The Necrontyr mistook them for gods, and the C'tan discovered junk food...

Keep in mind that beyond Melta range a C'tan will be invulnerable to Melta Guns because of Living Metal (S8 will only glance, Living Metal cancels AP1). At Melta range you'll need 7+ to penetrate, and then only 1/3 destroyed results. The single-hit kill is a good idea because the C'tan isn't the one being attacked, but the Necrondermis straining to contain its collosal essence. That it takes a point blank Melta shot to burst such a vessel is a testament to the power of the C'tan. Also it makes them immune to poison...

mercer:

Does the following make things clearer?

Revenants
Casualties from Revenant units are placed back in reserve. Revenant units that fail Morale checks are placed back in reserve.

We'll Be Back
Once an entire Revenant unit is placed back in reserves, the controlling Necron players must make a reserve roll for it as normal. Revenant units returning to the board can only do so via Necron Power Icons. If there are insufficient Necron Power Icons for Revenant units returning to the board, then the excess units are destroyed.

Necron Power Icon
Each turn a single Necron unit arriving from reserves may treat a friendly model with a Necron Power Icon as their home board edge.

I admire what you have come up with as it is very characterful, but I feel too radical and strangely both OP/UP to fit within 5th Ed and its current Codex books (although without points costs for everything it is difficult to picture what an army would look like & gauge its 'power' in relation to other armies). These are, I feel, the reasons why (I can't say for sure without playtesting - so if I am wrong on all points, I accept it and apologise):

The Necron army does not have enough variety and is conducive to a set way of playing:

Any sensible player would be tempted/forced to take as many Icons as possible, as this means all their units will have a better chance (and more tactical options) of returning consistently throughout the game. As the game progresses it will be easier for units to return, whilst the enemy is weakened during every Necron turn. I can instantly tell you that my army would consist of as many Icons as possible – as it plays to my greatest strength, the ability to return once destroyed – which I assume every unit will pay for in points in relation to its own power/significance? Any player would have to be mad not to field as many of these as possible, as I said, without comprehensive points values for anything it is tricky to gauge the full effect of Power Icons.

The Necron army as you have them would be OP against most MEQ armies because:

There'd be as many Necrons as Marines, with Marines having a far less capable ability of ignoring armour. Yes a Tactical Marine would strike first & be at equal footing to hit & wound. You'd get an armour save and they'd have a possibility that they wouldn't. A Tactical Marine's krak grenade would become irrelevant against the Necron army, as no vehicle can be penetrated, or even glanced, by it, whilst reducing them into combat squads weakens them in assault. Any fall back move made through ATSKNF will leave any Tactical Squad open to almost instant annhilation, escpecially if they weren't in cover, from the Necron retaliation. Necron Warriors can more easily kill Tactical Marines from a distance and within close combat if given the abilty to cause Rending.

Any low AP blast weapons Marines would have are made less effective thanks to We'll Be Back. Any army would have to annhiliate all your Icon carrying units with careful placement of blast markers/concentrated heavy firepower against Monoliths/Tomb Stalkers. Even Plasma Cannons wouldn't guarantee kills when a Necron unit is in cover, along with a potential 4+ Feel No Pain roll nearby.

The Necron player would instantly seek to destroy the main threats to his army, i.e Vindicators et al, and due to the ammount of high strength, AP1 shots that a Destroyer unit would have they would get a decent chance of doing so within the first turn. Lascannons won't worry the Necron player at all and all Marine armour saves, their greatest strength against all other armies, are made redundant.

The Necron army as you have them would make them UP against Horde armies (particualrly Tyranids):

Any army that outnumbers the Necron Warriors 3 to 1 (or more) will be very hard to kill as the Necrons have too little firepower to deal with them. The enemy would only have to concentrate on assaulting/targeting the units with Icons and the amount of Monstrous Creatures they can take would destroy the majority of Vehicles in the Necron army. If they unleashed a well timed assault against the majority of Necron units, the Necrons would have little hope to survive. Also the Necrons would struggle against the Instant Death/Poisoned weapons of the upcoming Dark Eldar.

General:

Why is nigh on every unit a multiple or division of 9?

AP1

Warriors may only fire 1 shot, but can still kill an enemy Monstrous Creature in a turn far more easily than any other Infantry unit in the game. So they hit a Carnifex on 3's, wound on 6's and the Carnifex receives no save. A single unit of Warriors, depending on their size, can re-coup their points costs against a wide array of opponents, too quickly, and have the chance of coming back again if they were wiped out. They are called Gauss Flayers', not Gauss 'you may as well be nakeds''. Necrons would wipe out the benefits of PA based armies and equivalent Elite units, who pay points to have protection against standard enemy Infantry – those points would be forfeit making the opponent pay a lot of points for the ability to have a 2+/3+/4+ Sv value that is useless against the Necrons, without being able to reciprocate in turn. This is unbalanced and saying "Well they'll just have to use cover all the time" is not conducive to a good game as the Necrons would have a major psychological and tactical advantage over the opponent (which may be fitting for the background, but is not for the game).

In addition Gauss flayers' are still capable of scoring glancing hits if positioned correctly and then roll a D6 - 1 on the damage table, meaning they can still potentially destroy most enemy light vehicles/transports with an AV of 10, albeit by hitting and rolling two sixes in a row. Keeping this in mind why would I want to give the Warriors power weapons, when I can have 12 24'' (30'' if you include movement) Strength 4 AP1 shots for 180 points, with a 3+ Sv, any cover save and Feel No Pain from the Tomb Spiders I'm blatently going to take - how does this make Warriors remotely vulnerable to the majority of Infantry based weapons?

I'm sorry to say but there's a reason why GW has given most Infantry weapons a similar stat line and rate of fire within the game, no matter how much it goes against background – consistency. AP1 weapons on a 15 pts model, that is pretty much a Marine, is broken. A lower rate of fire than most Infantry is insignificant compared to the ability to kill/wound anything with a Toughness value of 7 or less, or any vehicle with AV10.

Revenent:

Making every unit be able to come back means it'll be an endless slog for the opponent, whilst they struggle to deal with multiple Icons and threats. In a sense when playing against the Necrons it becomes a game of trying to destory all the Icons within a single turn, or reducing them down enough to put yourself in a position where they can be, whilst trying not to get killed in the process.

Any player would be better served trying to limit the Necron units with Blast/Ordnance without killing them completely for as long as possible. To me choosing not to shoot or assault an enemy because you realise that they have a reasonable chance of coming back again at full strength goes against the nature of the game and would be boring to play against. I understand this scarily fits the background but it doesn't fit the game as it is. The rule as it is would mean that an opponent would potentially face a x hundred, perhaps even x thousand, points deficit whenever they played against Necrons – how is this balanced or fair? Revenent units who come back as if from the table edge, basically out flanking from wherever you positioned a model with an Icon, and can shoot on the turn they enter play are OP. This is doubly so considering you can give Lords/Nobles the ability to be a Jetbike, meaning your reserve units can be placed anywhere at anytime if one were tactically astute enough. On the last turn if two Nobles were still alive and, say, 2 units came back due to the auto reserve roll, they could come back, move and any tactically minded player would either contest objectives or else secure them by moving the Nobles a turn in advance.

How do you prioritise units in relation to We'll Be Back? Is it the player's choice or in the order of removed units? If it's the player's choice this gives them a superior strategic advantage, as they can place what units where/when they want to if they were skilled enough. As the game progresses it is likely at least 1 unit will will always become available. If you have just two icons on the table and at least 3 units in reserve that's still about about 400 points of armour save ignoring death returning to the table. How is this not OP?

The limitation on Power Icons is offset by an armies ability to wipe out Units that can have them in any given turn. I feel you are overestimating the majority of opponent's chances to eradicate Icons/Necron units quickly enough. What are the chances of an opponent killing 4 Nobles within units as they are essentially T5 Marines with the possibilty of having Feel No Pain and the ability to return themselves as well? Also consider that one of these options is a 3 wound T6 Monstrous Creature with a 3+ Invulnerable Sv that can benefit from Feel No Pain, I find this a highly unlikely possibility. Have you ever played against Ku'gath? He may have 3 more wounds than a Tomb Stalker but I shot at him with an Imperial Guard Infantry Platoon, an Exorcist, a Sisters Squad and a Baneblade (sans main gun) for 3 turns - only causing 3 wounds in the process - and he 'only' has a 4+ Invulnerable save.

So a Necron unit that fails a Ld10 roll gets removed from play & placed in reserve, and? I play with 'vanilla' Marines, among others, and I rarely fail a Morale check unless I get pwned in assault. Ld10 is not a weakness.

Lords: Why would I want the option of becoming Fearless if I'm already LD10 Stubborn?

Do Revenent Independent Characters get treated as seperate units in regards to We'll Be Back (I assume they do)? This is very important when treating the rule to any kind of feedback/critique. Even if they did they are hard to kill to almost everything bar high strength power/ordance weapons and you could easily block them against enemy fire by placing them behind a Monolith or Tomb Stalker, meaning they'll at least have another turn or two to recoup any destroyed units around them, and as the game progresses this becomes far more likely.

Immortals: Please tell me these are 50 pts + each. They exceed Terminators in every sense, strike first in combat with the option of having power weapons, have much better firepower and can purchase the ability to hit on a 3 + against anything in close combat, as well as the chance of coming back again at some point if you do kill them. So they can't hurt vehicles as much – this won't matter when all scoring Infantry units have been eradicated.

Note: Necrons hate all living things. If you wanted to give them a boost in CC why not simply give the the Preferred Enemy special rule against all organic life (i.e. every other army in the game)? This would be simple, characterful and balanced, taking into account their current Initiative of 2 and lack of grenade capability.

Tomb Spiders: They are 1 wound away from being as tough to kill as a Carnifex, with powerful weaponry options and the ability to leap behind cover, whilst confering Feel No Pain to all units within 6'' (including themselves?). If 3 were taken you could potentially give every unit in the army Feel No Pain, on top of armour saves and cover saves, as well as the ability to come back again. I understand BA have Sanguinary Priests have such an ability, but they aren't 3 wound Monstrous Creatures and who's to say it wasn't an eager mistake on Mr Ward's part? If a Sanguinary Priest is 50pts, how much will these cost? If Tyranids could have a similar option would you consider that OP, bearing in mind they wouldn't have the potential ability to return at full strength? Also taking away their ability to produce Scarab Swarms is a negative in regards to their character.

Flayed Ones: Why would I ever want 3? I feel these should cause Rending as standard, as should Wraiths.

Wraiths: Have a 3+ Sv, a 3+ Invulnerable Sv and are Jetbikes – a potential turbo boosting 3+ Invulnerable Sv. A tripple buff that I'm paying more points for. Why not just keep them as having a single 3+ Invulnerable save as they'll only ever get one? Or give them an ability to re-roll if they moved a certain distance if you wanted them to be a little different?

Destroyers: They can position quickly whilst receiving a 3+ Invulnerable save. Even a Land Raider shooting at a unit with all its weapons is unlikely to kill one. Also at Strength 8 they can only ever score a glancing hit, against Land Raiders say, meaning they have been weakened - but 3 shots more than makes up for this as even their glancing hit has a chance to destory the Land Raider – the ability to fire 27 Strength 8 AP1 shots if a full unit were taken is an OP ability. How would you class Eldar if they could take this amount of firepower on their Jetbikes, even if they kept the same stat lines, making them easier to kill? Would you consider this OP against most enemy units? A unit of 2 Destoyers could easily kill a Monstrous Creature in a single turn of shooting – recouping their points instantly. They'd have to be very expensive given their characteristics, weapon and the ability of a Jetbike to reposition itself almost anywhere with a 3+ Invulnerable save to boot.

Monolith: Why would I consider taking one of these when I can have a Tomb Stalker instead?

Barque: So those 12 Warriors can fire their Strength 4 AP 1 weapons from an AV13 all round vehicle that can ignore cover when moving and position itself to cause most damage within a turn or two, while possibly positioning itself to be Hull Down against the weapons that can hurt it & firing its Strength 9 AP 2 Blast weapon. I like the idea of it being able to carry all units though, however if you were to put 6 Destoryers in here that's a potential 18 S8 AP1 shots, additional protection and a Blast Lascannon firing in a single turn. Against any 10 man unit in the game they hit on 3's and kill on 2's, with the majority of cover giving a 5+ or 4+ Invulnerable save - the possibility of that unit being either wiped out or reduced to be ineffective is very high.

Tomb Stalker: A Monstous Creature with 3 wounds, a 3+ Invulnerable save, Hit and Run, a twin-linked Strength 5 AP 1 Assault 2 weapon, that can move through any terrain, and move again, that also counts as an Icon – how can this be anything other than OP? Do Tomb Spiders confer Feel No Pain to this unit? Why would I want to have Rending as standard when I'm a Monstrous Creature and I ignore armour saves anyway with the option of ignoring Invulnerable saves as well? Why would I need a Jepack when I am such a large target with a 3+ Invulnerable save anyway? Oh, wait - the Jetpack makes it harder for enemy units to position themselves into Assault which means that an enemy unit can be easily baited, weakened by your fire & doubly so in combination with another unit. A Tomb Stalker can then strike at any weakened unit with relative impunity. Why would I want a Monolith when I can have one of these as this would make enemy anti-tank weapons (lascannon's et al) next to useless against me, being more or less unable to re-coup their pts values?

C'tan: I'd personally prefer to have a T8 5W monstous creature any day, and the current C'tan have lost their character, making them 'unspecial' characters.

These are the instinctive issues I have with it. Some wargear options are void and I feel you are overestimating an enemy's chance of killing all Icon carriers within a given time period, escpecially seeing as a possible four of them can return once they do finally die. LD10 is not as weak as you think, unless you get bogged down in Assault, in which case Horde armies will own Nercrons quite easily. Marine and other elite armies couldn't dent them given the high amount of casualties they'd suffer getting there/trying and takes away the Sv value, krak grenade and effectiveness of the Bolters. This is why they cost 16 pts each, even with all their special rules, which are more minor Tactical boosts than anything else. A vanilla Marine army can't utilise Feel No Pain the way Necrons can.

I would like to playtest this army in order to prove my instinct true or false. Points values would be a blessing if you would bestow them unto us

balthydes wrote:

@mercer
where does it say that power weapons are dependent on disruption fields?

It doesn't. Says can take dis fields with power weapons, very is very little point in doing that.

Nurglitch wrote:

mercer:

Does the following make things clearer?

Revenants
Casualties from Revenant units are placed back in reserve. Revenant units that fail Morale checks are placed back in reserve.

We'll Be Back
Once an entire Revenant unit is placed back in reserves, the controlling Necron players must make a reserve roll for it as normal. Revenant units returning to the board can only do so via Necron Power Icons. If there are insufficient Necron Power Icons for Revenant units returning to the board, then the excess units are destroyed.

Necron Power Icon
Each turn a single Necron unit arriving from reserves may treat a friendly model with a Necron Power Icon as their home board edge.

Yes but still complicated. You've made a single special rule into three seperate rules and made it harder. Just say we'll be back unit is placed into reserve and can come on via deep strike, add icons onto units as upgrade and they "lock" onto these like teleporter homers.

By adding the revenants rule and power icon rule it's making things more complicated, plus any deep striking Necron units i.e Flayed Ones could use the icons too

mercer:

I'm not really sure that's too complicated, and believe it to be simpler than the current We'll Be Back rules. What are you finding so complicated about it?

As mentioned the Revenant rule is basically a reiteration of the Necron rule in the current codex, but without the problem of having "Necron" refer to all units in the codex and units with the "Necron" special rule. I'd prefer a better name than Revenant, but whatever the rule is named it's a necessity.

The Necron Power Icon rule likewise works better as a board edge rather than a locator beacon, both in terms of game mechanics, and representationally since both Resurrection Orbs and Monolith Portals are being represented.

Besides, it's not like Flayed Ones can't be held in reserve and use a Necron Power Icon to move directly into combat...

Nurglitch wrote:I'd prefer a better name than Revenant, but whatever the rule is named it's a necessity.

Well, then just make the rule called: "We'll Be Back". No need to overcomplicate things

Although, with Orks and Waagh!, we may not be able to trust GW to only list WBB on units that can use it.

Grakmar:

It seems you're right, the rules can be blended.

I should probably point out that what GW does is irrelevant to what I'm writing here. This isn't going to be the next Codex: Necrons.

I think there is a logically inconsistency with having the gauss flayers at strength 4 AP 1. A weapon that completely ignores 2+ saves (artificer armor, broadside plates, and TMC extended exoskeletons) but is completely neutralized by the 11+ vehicle armor seems to be at odds with itself. Having a volley from gauss flayers annihilated a squad of broadsides but the same volley fail to shoot down a dark eldar ravager seems a bit off. The idea that power armor offers no protection from the shot doesn’t account for the time/energy expended to strip away the armor to get at the marine. Also I think the point values need adjusting. When GWS change the storm troopers’ hellgun from AP 5 to AP 3 their price jumped from 10 points to 16 points. You lowered the AP of the gauss flayer to AP1 and dropped the price of the necron warrior.

In the Inquisitor game the flayer is given a fairly low damage value of D10, a lasgun is 2D6 for comparison. For those not familiar with the game, damage inflicted against a target is resolved first against their armor and then all the remaining force of the shot is directed against the model. If someone wearing armor with a rating of 5 on their chest takes a strength 7 hit from a lasgun, the armor will deduct 5 from the damage and the model will take 2 points of damage to that area. If the strength hit is lower than the armor no damage is taken. The special rule for the flayer is that armor that blocks a shot is cancelled out. If a model had power armor, value 10, takes a strength 6 gauss hit to its chest the armor stops it all, but is reduced to a value of 4.

I think the problem is that the nature of the gauss flayer can’t be captured just by using the standard rules of Strength and AP. Here’s a suggestion that everyone is just bound to hate:

Gauss Flayer: Range 18 Strength 4 AP 5 Rapid-fire, Flayer

Flayer: The unique manner in which flayer weapons deal damage means that they are capable of stripping through anything with enough concentration of fire. Before any shots are fired by a unit with flayer weapons, the necron player can decided to halve (rounding down) the total number of shots in order to raise their strength by one and lower their AP by one. Doing this will cause the shots to be twin-linked. They necron player can keep halving the shots if they desire.

So 20 necrons at 18 inches can get:
20 strength 4 AP5 shots
10 strength 5 AP4 shots twin-linked
5 strength 6 AP3 shots twin-linked
2 strength 7 AP2 shots twin-linked
1 strength 8 AP1 shots twin-linked

This way the flayer is once again able to threaten vehicles like they did when their codex first came out. Math hammering it out will show that it is definitely in the necrons interest to concentrate their shots to meet the armor value of their target in most situations (carnifexes, marines, firewarriors, or just imperial guard at the lowest concentration). This could create the penetration effect you desire without being to over powering or suffering against vehicles or Toughness 8 creatures.

C’tan: I would rather the c’tan just be outright moved into apocalypse as improved gargantuan creatures in general. Not really sure I like the idea of the C’tan getting immobilized by haywire grenades or by moving through difficult terrain. Your C’tan is a lot more vulnerable with lance weapons, wraith cannons, grenades, and other tank busting weapons that are out there. Why stick a vehicle tag on the C’tan but leave Tomb spiders as monstrous creatures?

WBB: I think this may be a bit too powerful. When dark eldar use the webway device it is rather the same situation as a respawning necron unit except that the dark eldar have to place the webway, they only get one at 50 points, and they can’t bring back a 400 point unit form the dead. If the one eldar character carrying the webway dies before placing it, all units that where held in reserve for the web can be counted as destroyed in some situations, else wise they use the table edge. FNP is better than the GWS WBB save necrons get (it is less conditional), by using tomb spider the necrons get a FNP save and can respawn through an orb carrying HQ. Also from the fluff standpoint, the current WBB has the necrons healing from damage on the spot; I like this better than damage necrons disappearing and new one teleporting onto the battlefield as if they were appliances under warranty.

I think you have a lot of good ideas, but I would like to see them used elsewhere like in a codex/race entirely of your making rather than used on necrons. Your rules completely changes how a necron army would play, it is kind of like remaking orks as an elite army and space marines as a horde. Specializing them into marine killers is quite a change, it makes them strong against everything they were weak against and weak against everything they were strong against – that is a major alteration to the army. My opinion is that necrons should play as a horde army - it says “we are legion” right on the binding of their codex after all.

If it were up to me I would lower the necron WS and BS to 3 give them 4+ armor but reduce their price considerably. Why should necrons shoot and fight as well as space marines and aspect warriors; and their metal is soft and malleable, made to regenerate damage unlike power armor. This would help them against the armies they have problems with that use a lot of AP3/Ap2 guns and power weapons, you are killing them at the same rate but there is more of them; and it would also help out disadvantage armies like tau as they would not have to contend with the 3+ saves.

Love the idea on the flayer I know people will dislike it for its non streamed lined nature but its not that bad, and a great idea.

As a necron Player I would love to see this it would allow my one and only troop choice to act as if it had say, a single heavy weapon (Str 8 AP 1 shot) or heavy bolter equivalent weapon.

Would go a long way toward making necron warriors useful in a broader range of situations

I would also like to see necrons as more of a slow moving hoard army rather than an elite force fits the idea of them better

Grunt13:

Actually no, there is no logical inconsistency between being able to defeat all armour savings throws and not being able to penetrate armour values above 11. That's because those things are independent in the game, and independent in the background: vehicle armour is very different from body armour, the least of which being that a vehicle has dead space in between the occupant and the protective layer.

Inquisitor mechanics are irrelevant because, as I've pointed out, this codex is written from a game perspective and takes no account of how anyone believes it should represent.

I've given the reasons for my decision regarding We'll Be Back, and the reasons you give against it are incommensurate (it's not comparable to the Webway portal for the Dark Eldar), irrelevant (your opinion of what the rule represents), and without any quantifiable basis deriving the conclusions you simply assert. Yes, a 400pt unit may return if it failed a morale check or was destroyed, there's an available Necron Power Icon, and it passes its reserve roll. So? That's a condition for value, not a conclusion about the value that such a condition generates.

Furthermore, consider the title of the thread: Nurglitch Butchers Your Favourite Army, so I don't think the suggestion to go write a fandex about some non-canon army really works since the intent is obviously to radically reinterpret an existing army. Which is to say while my fandex does make radical changes, it orients the army towards a horde rather than an elite "marine-killer" army, unless you have some sort of convincing argument otherwise (like building an army using the list provided, and an army using the official codex, and showing how its capabilities change to support your thesis).

Nurglitch wrote:
Actually no, there is no logical inconsistency between being able to defeat all armour savings throws and not being able to penetrate armour values above 11. That's because those things are independent in the game, and independent in the background: vehicle armour is very different from body armour, the least of which being that a vehicle has dead space in between the occupant and the protective layer.

Killer kans are completely immune, but Broadsides kick the bucket? Why should eldar jetbikes die by the droves but the vypers have a much higher comparably resistance? The air is resisting the flayer effects? Didn’t the flayer just shoot through 18 inches of dead space to strike their target? That protective layer is the vehicle itself, wouldn’t stripping the vehicle away from the crew affect the unit. If a unit of warriors opens up on a leman russ the end result would be five people standing in the field saying you can’t hurt us because of the surrounding air.

Nurglitch wrote:
Inquisitor mechanics are irrelevant because, as I've pointed out, this codex is written from a game perspective and takes no account of how anyone believes it should represent.

Fluff is irrelevant? Fair enough, I will focus my comments entirely on game mechanics.

Nurglitch wrote:
I've given the reasons for my decision regarding We'll Be Back, and the reasons you give against it are incommensurate (it's not comparable to the Webway portal for the Dark Eldar), irrelevant (your opinion of what the rule represents), and without any quantifiable basis deriving the conclusions you simply assert. Yes, a 400pt unit may return if it failed a morale check or was destroyed, there's an available Necron Power Icon, and it passes its reserve roll. So? That's a condition for value, not a conclusion about the value that such a condition generates.

See below for response.

Nurglitch wrote:
Furthermore, consider the title of the thread: Nurglitch Butchers Your Favourite Army, so I don't think the suggestion to go write a fandex about some non-canon army really works since the intent is obviously to radically reinterpret an existing army. Which is to say while my fandex does make radical changes, it orients the army towards a horde rather than an elite "marine-killer" army, unless you have some sort of convincing argument otherwise (like building an army using the list provided, and an army using the official codex, and showing how its capabilities change to support your thesis).

That was meant as a complement. I said I like some of what I saw I just don’t think it fits for necrons or working as a whole. Math hammering is just one approach of assessing a proposed rule. Another much easier and effective way is to compare them to preexisting units that share similarities.

Assessment through comparison:
Flayer:
Storm troopers had their ranged reduced to 18 inches and AP reduced from 5 to 3. These changes caused their price to jump up 60 percent from 10 to 16. This is pretty much what you did with the gauss flayer, so it is a nice reference for seeing how price changes should be accounted for a significant change to AP. Using this as a basis the price of the necron, just due to their gun change they should be raised to about 30 points.

I called your army an elite marine killers because this is the title bestowed upon the storm troopers with their strength 3 AP 3 guns by GWS. Truth is I didn’t take your price of 15 point warriors into account, I saw your rules before you had priced them and was acting on the belief their value would be raised. So yes you have created a horde army, a horde of marine killers.

Necron Power Icon:
I compared the Power Icon to the webway device because the webway device is the only piece of wargear in the game that extends a player’s table edge (that I know of). Your Power icon allows necrons to walk onto a board the same way a webway allows dark eldar to enter the game, thus the comparison. The eldar webway is the closest match to your Power Icons that exist in the game. Chaos Icons just work on deep striking units offering a more precise placement and nothing more.

Webway Pros:
Lets models move onto the board as if they entered the table edge.
Works on all units, not just those with deep strike.

Webway Cons:
Character has to forfeit shooting to place.
Once placed it becomes a fixed point.
All webway units are destroyed if webway is destroyed before placement (these are units that have yet to enter the game)
Enemy can prevent/kill webway units by blocking webway
50 points each (I was wrong multiple webways can be used)

Chaos Icon/ Teleporter Homer Pros:
Cheap and can be fielded by many units
Doesn’t have to be placed in a fixed location as it is based on character’s position

Chaos Icon/ Teleporter Homer Cons
Only works for deep strike units
Deep strike restrictions on placement and units abilities upon arrival

And there are restrictions on both items according to who can have them, deep striking units and bikes are commonly excluded from having such devices due to their enhanced movement. There also is the issue of durability. Your resurrection orbs are given to characters that also have the WBB rule, this means that successfully killing them is just as hard as killing the units of necrons in which they are placed. Saying that you deal with WBB by killing Power Icons doesn’t work if they also use WBB. With four orb nobles (assuming no other power icons) you would have to kill all four on the same turn to prevent WBB.

Your Icons combine all the strengths of both items and none of their weakness. They are much, much better than the dark eldar webway that cost 50 points; you have them priced at 10 points - hence my issue with them. All this ignores the issue of a 27 necron unit getting annihilated and then walking back into the game through one of these Power Icons which is a major issue in itself.

Grunt13:

Yes, I really don't see a problem with Killer Kans being immune to Gauss Flayers while Broadsides get eaten alive. To be a logical inconsistency Mega Armoured Nobz would have to be eaten alive by Gauss Flayers and Broadsides would be immune. That would be a logical inconsistency, and require a very complicated special rule to implement. Low Strength low Armour Piercing low shots simply hits a sweet spot that isn't covered by existing weapons.

You see, the thing about Warhammer 40k is that the human armies get flexibility within squads, while xenos get flexibility armies - there's variety in there, no doubt, but that's the design.

That means that units don't exist in a vacuum, and that units need to be complemented in order for an army to defeat a range of other armies. Nobody complains that Pulse Rifles can't penetrate AV12, or that Lasguns can't touch vehicles at all. That's because those weapons have integral and external anti-vehicular support.

Necrons were an exception to this design, as they were in so many other ways, and the popularity of the army is absent as a result, and they rightly have a reputation for being boring.

So, I've built this fandex list so that units complement either other, and that the Necron Warrior's murderous anti-infantry efficiency has the drawback of being useless against any vehicle that isn't easily trashed by most small arms. They have very sharp and very brittle scissors.

You need to make up that deficit by either strategy, taking units that have sufficient anti-tank capabilities to meet your perceived needs, or by tactics, taking units that allow the Necrons to close with and destroy vehicles in combat. In fact you'll need to do both, as S4 Rending only gets you so far.

Which brings us to cost. According to your analysis Warriors should cost 30 points because Storm Troopers get Hellguns or Hotshot Lasguns (I forget which is the codex option). However, you're missing all the extra rules that Storm Troopers get as well. It wasn't just their weapons that added to their cost, but their flexibility. Flexibility comes at a premium, and the zeitgeist is that units need to specialize so that their other abilities aren't somehow 'wasted'.

So let's not take things out of context. Storm Troopers can waste AV14 vehicles, have twice as many shots with their standard weapon, and actual Bolter-resistant armour.

The changes I've made to Necrons are nowhere near the improvement that Stormtroopers got, and have drawbacks. And let us not forget that Stormtroopers are marginally less popular than Ogryns.

So let's qualify the claim that they're Marine killers by accepting that they're going to suck against Marines in cover, in vehicles, that get stuck in the 6" sweet spot where they'll be in range of the Flayers but not close enough to prevent that with a charge, and not entombed in a Dreadnought.

So now let's talk about Icons. Lesser Daemons must use Icons to enter the game. If an Icon is not available, then the unit is lost. When an Icon is available they must be placed within 6" of one and then can run and assault. This is the same as using the Icon model as an extension of the board edge. In addition, Terminators and Obliterators can use them as teleport homers. Similarly the Necron Power Icon can only return We'll Be Back units, but can be used by Necron units in reserve.

Considering your list of drawbacks, clearly the Necron Power Icon can be blocked, and they are costly, both in terms of the points and opportunity cost. They are limited to two Heavy Support choices and two HQ choices.

So, clearly one does not have to kill all the Nobles in a single turn, as one can simply block the surviving models, with close combat being the easiest way. One cannot depend on the Necron player accidentally block egress from Necron Power Icon bearing models, but you can overload them. If you kill three Nobles, for instance, only one can come back. There's a reason they don't have access to Phase Shifters...

Of course, that's supposing the player wants to forgo the benefits of having Lords, or Phylacteries. The opportunity cost multiplies out with the points cost. Likewise players shouldn't be discouraged from taking the 27 Necron uber-unit when the risk of losing them all to We'll Be Back is so high.

Personally I consider this a feature, as it requires tactics.

You might be confusing the lesser daemon arrival with one from a previous chaos codex. Lesser daemon follow all the rules for deep strike, they cannot assault when they enter the game. All deep striking units can either shoot or run as running takes place in the shooting phase. The only other portable table extender in the game that lets a model walk out and take a normal turn (movement, shooting, assaulting) is the eldar webway. Blocking icons is a lot harder than blocking webways, with icons there is a 6 inches all around the character that unit can be placed. Simply keep the noble in the back so it can't be surrounded means that units can enter the game even if it is stuck in hand to hand. Chaos Daemon players don’t have much of a problem with their icons getting cut of from assaults neither would your necrons.

Armor Issue: Space marines and eldar make their body armor out of the same material that they make their vehicles out of. Jetbikes verse vypers, marine bikes verse land speeders, tau suits verse their vehicles – it all is the same exact material. Two inches of armor is two inches of armor, but you make a huge distinction on whether or not that armor is part or a power armor suit or a vehicle hull. When a 27 unit of warriors guns down a unit of 10 marines the amount of ceramite and steel that disappears exceeds the amount of ceramite and steel in the front side of a rhino. Same exact material, completely different effect. Whether it works on a purely game mechanics or not, it is a bit hard to shallow from a rational standpoint. I could make a rule where flak armor gives a 3++ save and have it in a balanced codex, but that doesn’t mean it will make sense to the people playing.

Mobility:
Your necrons are extremely mobile, more so than any other army. In a large game verse chaos marines a unit of heavy destroyers can fly out of a necron orb blast up abbadon’s land raider then give him and his whole army the middle finger. Next turn they are on the other side of an eight foot table pulling the same trick to on a defiler. You give jet packs to cheap monstrous creatures, they can hunt down vehicles and intercept squads with ease. You say that flexibility is a premium, but your army enjoys far more flexibility than any other. Especially more than the elite storm troopers that you say pay for that perk.

Storm Troopers: The tactical flexibility enjoyed by your necron warriors exceeds that of the storm troopers by a large margin. Saying that their base price is increased because they have the options of paying more points to buy upgrades only makes marginal sense. If I wrote rules allowing them to buy heavy weapons and a land raider transport should I then raise the price of the basic trooper so that they are 18 points? If I remove the ability to buy flamers, grenade launchers, and select scouts/move through cover does this drop them down to 14 points?

Their upgrades are also fixed before the game, saying that they had the option of buying a melta gun doesn’t help a squad that has a plasma gun and flamer when they are staring down a leman russ. Your warriors on the other hand enjoy the ability to adjust their options after the army list has been written by adjusting their character placement. The warriors can be adjusted to handle a lot more situations then even the most adaptable troop/elites from other armies. If my dire avengers had a magic magician hat in which they can reach in and pull out a squad of banshees or fire dragons then I could not really complain about their inability to handle things like vehicles or high armored adversaries.

Cover: Saying that marines have to stay in cover is like telling an average guy in a boxing ring against a heavy weight not to get hit. Units have to leave cover to achieve their objectives and counter their enemy. By sitting in cover they are sacrificing mobility against an extremely mobile army.

Transports: Transports are just moving tombs. Here’s one way to wipe out an expensive unit in relative ease using sacrificial units that can be discarded without loss. A unit of Heavy/Normal destroyers fly out of an orb near to an enemy transport, they fly over the vehicle and prepare to shoot up its rear armor. Right before this, a unit of wraiths wrap themselves around the vehicle covering the exit points via turbo boost. The vehicle takes a bunch of strength 8 AP1 hits to the rear armor and typically dies with its squad being wiped out regardless of how powerful the characters/unit. The opponent fires every available gun in his arsenal against the two WBB units and wipes them out. The process repeats itself next turn. In many cases the wraiths wouldn’t even be needed as the destroyers themselves could block the assess points of the transports.

Suggestions that work with your codex:
WBB: Shouldn’t be 100%. Perhaps after a unit is destroyed it has to roll a 4+ if it doesn’t the unit is gone for good, maybe having a fixed roll per unit like immortals get a 5+ and destroyers a 6+ due to their complexity. This will prevent necron players from outright sacrificing their units just so they can hop out a power icon next turn. It also prevents a favorite super unit from taking mad solitary attacks against the opponent and getting wiped out every turn only to return the next.

Icons: Should work like chaos icons. Unit arrives as if it performed a deep strike using a teleporter homer. Daemons, a deep strike army, have to follow the restrictions imposed by DP when using their icons, why should necrons have a much better system than daemonettes?

Price Adjustments: They are needed. Those people with necron armies try this: Take your army and divide into two similar forces (200-500 points) one using the GWS rules and the other using Nuglitch’s rules. And play out a game. GWS necrons aren’t a disadvantaged codex, they do quite well; so if there is a misbalance in results, like 200 points of Nuglitch’s necrons butchering 400 points of GWS necrons, it is a strong indicator that something is off.

Grunt13:

Please read Codex: Chaos Space Marines, Forces of Chaos section, Lesser Daemons, Summoning Daemons inset, p.61:

"Units of Daemons always start the game in Reserve, even in Missions that do not normally allow the Reserves rule to be used. When a Daemon unit becomes available from Reserve, it must be deployed as detailed below."

And:

"Once deployed, the Daemons cannot do anything else in that turn's Movement phase, but after that they are free to act as normal (they can Assault in the same turn as they enter the game)."

Blocking Necron Power Icons is as easy as blocking a Webway Portal, since the units move onto the board from that point rather than being deployed via the rules for Deep Strike.

Regarding armour, as mentioned your opinion that the fluff you imagine is not being adequately represented is irrelevant to the fact that armour penetration is treated differently from armour saving throws in the game. Strictly speaking, the fact that it may not suit your preconceptions of how the rules should represent is neither rational nor relevant, it's how the game works.

Your objection is not relevant because it does not address the fact that this is a matter of game mechanics and not representation. It is not rational because a rational objection would not apply subjective standards (your opinion of how armour penetration and armour saving throws should represent) to an objective matter, which is how the set of values collated under the label "Gauss Flayer" function.

Likewise your claim that the Necron Warriors as I have written them enjoy greater flexibility than the new Stormtroopers is both irrational, because it offers no objective data to contradict the objective data that I offered to support my claim that Necron Warriors lose flexibility, and irrelevant, because Stormtroopers have too many points of difference to make them comparable (and no, that doesn't make my point about Stormtroopers likewise irrelevant because I was discussing how units are valuated in general, not trying to generalize from one unit to another).

In general terms, then, removing partial options (in the Stormtroopers case removing Flamers and Grenade Launchers, but not Melta Guns and Plasma Guns, or removing Scouts/Move Through Cover without the other options) does not change the value of any unit because retaining the other options retains their flexibility (in the Stormtrooper case: to address vehicles, being deployed, having effective armour and characteristic upgrades, and being an Elite unit).

Your objection regarding the fact that Stormtroopers have to choose their upgrades prior to the game is nonsensical as the Necron Warriors also have to choose their upgrade options prior to the game, and Stormtroopers can also be joined by Independent Characters that can change their role and increase their flexibility.

You would be better off comparing them, in terms of relevance, to Fire Dragons that can only engage standard units (i.e. non-vehicle units), and you'll see the cost is comparable.

Your objection regarding cover only halfway (if that) addresses my point that cover is one option to defeating Necron Warriors, and other options include attacking them with vehicles they cannot harm, assaulting them so that they cannot shoot, pinning them down, making them fail a morale check, hanging back out of range, or engaging them with a horde (since they get one shot each). You may notice that they have very few weapons that ignore cover...

While you're understating the tactical options available to combatting them, you're overstating their mobility, possibly because you don't know the rules for Icons and Lesser Daemons. The army can be mobile, but getting that mobility involves trade-offs. Fast Attack units are expensive, Scarabs take up Troops choices and can't capture objectives, Lords and Nobles lose the Nightmare Shroud and Solar Pulse if they take the Veil of Darkness, taking a Barque means one less Necron Power Icon in Heavy Support, and their weapons are short-ranged to boot.

A horde of 27 Necron Warriors coming out of a Necron Power Icon will be nicely clumped up for incoming templates and makers, unless they run, in which case their fabulous anti-vehicle firepower evaporates, and they are only able to engage one unit per turn. Sure, they might ice that unit with prejudice if that unit is a vehicle, T4-, in range, not in cover, and fewer than ten strong, but they are going to have problems with multiple small units.

So let's address your transport idea. Let's suppose a Rhino is the transport, since it has AV10 on the rear and three exit points to be covered by the Wraiths despite the fact that they cannot come within 1" of the Rhino in their movement or shooting phases. Let's suppose a unit of three Wraiths, and a single Destroyer. That's 200pts. The Destroyer has to start the game within 2" of the front of the Rhino to fly over it because the Rhino is ~6" long and the Destroyer must land 1" from it, and its own base is 3" wide, and moving further than 12" prevents it from shooting.

It has two shots, twin-linked, so 1.77 hits, penetrating on 5 or 6, glancing on 4, so 0.59 penetrations, 0.30 glances, for:

Shaken = 0.1
Stunned = 0.2 (no extra armour)
Weapon Destroyed = 0.2
Immobilized = 0.2
Wrecked = 0.2
Explodes = 0.2

Or: 0.3 of doing nothing much, 0.4 of causing damage, and 0.4 of destroying the vehicle and its contents. Pretty good for 200pts of Necrons, who then get fragged.

Of course, this can only happen on a minimum of T2, with a Rhino 2" in front of a Necron Power Icon, a unit of Destroyers in Reserve, and at least two Necron Power Icons available next turn for them to recycle through. Perhaps if you luck out for all that, you'll also get lucky with your opponent obliging you by driving another Rhino into the wreckage or exploded remains of the previous Rhinos.

Of course, this is something all units in Warhammer 40k can do much more easily for fewer points, requires the application of tactics, and less risk. Because as a player facing a Necron opponent you will know that they can do this, and don't park your Rhino within 2" of a Necron Power Icon...

So regarding your recommendations, We'll Be Back only permits a 100% reliability of recycling units if:

1. A Necron Power Icon is available. Remember only one unit can recycle through an Icon per turn.

2. They pass their Reserves check. This will be automatic in the turns that the Necrons are least likely to have Necron Power Icons available

3. Necrons aren't a Deep Strike army, and unlike Chaos Daemons require the presence of Icons to re-enter the board (or be destroyed completely), and treating the Necron Power Icons like Chaos Icons makes it much harder to block them. They are deliberately unlike Chaos Daemon Icons for these reasons, and more like a hybrid of Webway Portals and Chaos Space Marine Icons with Lesser Daemons for that reason. They are not better, they are different, and the benefits they accrue come at that cost, both in points and opportunity cost (more than Personal Icons, less than standard Icons that confer a Mark benefit).

Regarding the suggestion to see how they play against the existing codex, I strongly agree. It'll be important to remember that AP1 does not negate the existing We'll Be Back rule, so that a unit of current Necron Warriors can be reasonably expected to beat my Necron Warriors in a firefight, remain on the board longer, and no carry the same Phase Out risk.

For example: 10 Original Flavour Necron Warriors engaging 12 Nurglitch Flavour Necron Warriors at two ranges: 24" and 12":

24"
OF Necrons: 10 shots, 6.67 hits, 3.33 wounds, 1.11 unsaved wounds
NN Necrons (including move 6" forward to 18" range): 12 shots, 8 hits, 4 wounds, 2 fail We'll Be Back.

First shot score: 1:2

12"
OF Necrons: 20 shots, 13.33 hits, 6.66 wounds, 3.33 unsaved wounds, 0.08 risk of We'll Be Back destroying entire unit.
NN Necrons 12 shots, 8 hits, 4 wounds, 2 fail We'll Be Back.

First shot score: 3:2

50% increase/decrease either way. Looks right, more hordey for NN Necron Warriors, and encourages the Necrons to advance at the risk of losing all. That's without the OF Necrons using cover...

Don't think I'm dismissing your advice though. Being able to show how your analysis is wrong enables me to check my own work, and discuss the math underlying some of the design choices I've made (and thus gives me something to write about in the Design Notes I promised).

Yep you got me on the chaos marine lesser daemons. But to be fair the part that says they have the special ability of assaulting is not under the big bold title Lesser Daemon entry nor the chaos icon wargear description – so did see it when I looked up the entries and confused it with dated material. The fact that an entire daemon codex exist in which that is not the case might have been a factor. The marine daemons belong to a rather excluded club of units that can assault after deep striking – your necrons can move, shoot, and assault a range which is 12 inches for normal walkers and 18 for wraiths and jetbikes; daemons get 6 inches, that is a big difference. The vehicle example was a very distorted example. If a model with a three-inch base is an inch away from an access point it is impossible for a unit to exit. It only takes 4 destroyers to wrap a rhino so that not even a single model can escape with a Power icon being up to 5 inches from the side of the vehicle. The rhino is the most difficult vehicle to pull this on as most just have one rear access. If 9 heavy destroyers (you insisted on using 1 normal destroyer in your example) fire upon Abaddon’s land raider you wreck the tank 3 times over on average. All you need is a unit of wraiths to wrap the Raider to auto kill Abaddon and his terminator buddies, so a power icon or wraith unit within 20 inches should do nicely. The sacrifice of the necron units is hardly a penalty as you are getting the unit right back (see link).

But all this is relatively moot. I actually practiced what I preached and play tested out your rules. Here’s a link to the two battle reports:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Necron_Fandex_Playtesting_Battle_Report_1
You might notice a connection between how they played out and the comments and insights people have been making against your codex.

Grunt13:

While I congratulate you on taking the time to play out and write a battle report, I have to reject them and their conclusions for several reasons:

1. You really need to edit that report. You need to distinguish between the Nobles, as I couldn't tell which was which and I was concerned that you allowed a Necron Noble in combat to bring We'll Be Back units in through its Necron Power Icon, which would be impossible seeing as it would have been in combat and no model could use it as a board edge without moving within 1" of an enemy model (GW's 25mm base aren't 1" in diameter...). Plus it was difficult to follow since you were inconsistent with notation (either say "inches" or use the scare-quotes).

2. Non-standard mission on virtually no terrain, and that's saying that as someone that very recently played in a tournament where the terrain on one table consisted of a small bush on a small hill. An important part of 5th edition is the fact that games are random length, and likewise an important part of my design for Codex: Necrons.

3. Adding your own rules to interfere with my design. It was a nice thought, but don't call them Nurglitch Necrons if you're going to introduce house rules. I can respect you leaning on the scales to prove a point, but I cannot respect counterfeiting.

4. Uneven army lists. If you're going to make a comparison, either you should continue adding new rules to the systems you're comparing and give the GW Necrons a pair of Nobles instead of an extra Warrior unit, or remove the Nobles from the 'Nurglitch' army and add a unit of Warriors.

5. Bad play. While I can see that you might want to play to prove a point, deliberately playing badly with either side is bad form and invalidates whatever data you claim to have generated. Given the ridiculous mission and the opposition, the GW Necrons should have deployed the Lord and Warriors in cover, and left the rest in reserves.

So here's what I suggest you do:

1. Revise the armies so they have identical units. They should each have the units in the GW list, though obviously the 'Nurglitch' list will follow the rules that I have written, with no extra house rules attached.

2. Add more terrain to the board. As a rule of thumb 2% or enough to completely cover 1/4 of the board is the bare minimum.

3. Play a mission out of the book. Two, for preference, with one being an objective mission and the other being annihilation.

4. Write your report, then leave it a day and come back and edit it. Or I can edit it for you, if you'd like, as I'm currently in school for that sort of thing and need the practice.

5. Play to win, not to validate whatever point you want to make.

Finally I want to thank you again for taking the time to play-test, and I want to encourage you to try it again because its nice to see someone taking the time to actually try something I wrote.

The basic Wraith entry should have a Disruption Field (oops, good eye). The competition with Destroyers is a good idea, since the Wraiths are strictly close combat and the Destroyers are strictly ranged, and neither can compete outside their chosen field. This suites the design of xenos units being specialists.

The Stalker is mainly extrapolated from the Forgeworld rules. It could probably do with some refinement. But remember it's T6, W3, Iv/Sv3+ and a construct unit (I've deleted the Revenant rule as superfluous). Despite its Phase Shifter it's easier to kill than the Monolith (remember that the Living Metal rule I propose pretty much negates non-Melta range melta-weapon shots). We can grind the numbers, if you'd like.

It's easier to kill the Monolith and the Tomb Stalker for precisely the reasons that Grunt13 objects to the version of We'll Be Back I've proposed, so that there is no easy recycling of units.

Something else to consider is that despite their Leadership, Necrons are less resistant to being pinned than many other armies, particularly if you're inclined to put them all in one basket, so to speak.

If people are really feeling skeptical of We'll Be Back, then how about making recycling a flat 4+ for such units. It'll underpower the army, but I suppose that beats the perception of overpowering them.

What is the point of leaving the basic Wraith almost untouched? The basic Wrath entry lists has the exact same problems as the current one: too small to be effective and competes with Destroyers. The option to give them power weapons is critical, but I question why the opportunity to field them without power weapons is present at all, especially at S5.

I'm iffy on the Monolith. Without immunity to melta effects, I believe that it will usually get melta'd and die in short order regularly. It's too slow, too big, and too short ranged to keep alive. Even if you bubblewrap it in the middle of your army, it is still a good target for melta suicide runs.

A Stalker is likely to provide a better Icon carrier, as it is faster, cheaper, easier to hide, and harder to kill. In fact, looking at the list, it seems quite amazing. T6 W3, phase shifter, jet pack? AND HnR?

Initial review seems that there are 2 main ways to fight this army. Bleed revenant units down as far as you can and then try to stay away from them until you can knock down a bunch in one turn. Or, charge for the Icons. Of which there is unlikely to be more than 6 due to the cost of the HS ones. And I'm not certain if every army has a way to deal with 4 Destroyer Nobles that don't want to be caught.