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So I feel like writing a Necron fan-dex to tide me over after reviewing style guides, and until I work up the courage to face writing a technical description.

Codex: Necrons
Being wishful thinking about how the next edition of Codex: Necrons might look.

Army Special Rules
The Necrons have several army-wide special rules, or rules shared by several units.

We'll Be Back
Casualties from We'll Be Back units are placed back in reserve. We'll Be Back units that fail Morale checks are placed back in reserve. Once an entire We'll Be Back unit is placed back in reserves, it is available to return to the board. The controlling Necron player must make a reserve roll for each We'll Be Back unit that can return to the board, with success on a 4+ regardless of the turn. However, We'll Be Back units returning to the board can only do so via Necron Power Icons. If there are insufficient Necron Power Icons for We'll Be Back units returning to the board, then excess units of the player's choice are destroyed.

Necron Power Icon
Each turn a single Necron unit arriving from reserves may treat a friendly model with a Necron Power Icon as their home board edge.

Construct
Constructs are mindless automata, rather than entombed Necrontyr. As a consequence, units with the Construct rule are both Fearless and cannot be joined by Independent Characters with the We'll Be Back rule.

Wargear List
Necrons employ an extensive arsenal of wargear, from simple razor-edged metal Claws, to the horrific Gauss weapons. Sometimes they employ even more esoteric technologies, displaying their mastery of space-time.

Close Combat Weapons
Claws
Models with claws count as having a normal close combat weapon.

Disruption Field
Models with a Disruption Field count as having rending attacks in close combat.

Khopesh
A Khopesh is a Power Weapon.

Warscythe
A Warscythe is a Power Weapon that also ignores Invulnerable Saves. It cannot be used with another Close Combat Weapon, though it can be combined with a Disruption Field.

Staff of Light
A Staff of Light is a Power Weapon and once per game may count as a Solar Pulse. It cannot be used with another Close Combat Weapon, though it can be combined with a Disruption Field.

Ranged Weapons
Particle Whip
Rng24" S9 AP2 Ordnance, Large Blast

Particle Projector
Rng36" S9 AP2 Heavy, Blast

Gauss Flux Arc
Rng12" S4 AP1 Heavy D6 per unit within range

Gauss Flayer
Rng18" S4 AP1 Assault 1

Gauss Blaster
Rng24" S6 AP1 Assault 1, Twin-Linked

Gauss Cannon
Rng24" S6 AP1 Assault 2, Twin-Linked

Heavy Gauss Cannon
Rng36" S8 AP1 Heavy 2

Armour
Infiltrator Chassis
Provides an Armour Saving throw of 4+

Standard Chassis
Provides an Armour Saving throw of 3+

Immortal Chassis
Provides an Armour Saving throw of 2+

Destroyer Chassis
Provides an Armour Saving throw of 3+, allows a unit to count as a Jetbike unit for the purposes of movement.

Wraith Chassis
Provides an Armour Saving throw of 3+, allows a unit to count as a Jetbike unit for the purposes of movement, and follows the rules for having a Phase Shifter.

Other Equipment
Gaze of Flame
Meeting the eyes of the Necron bearing the Gaze of Flame is see into the soul of something that has watched the galaxy burn for millions of years, that time itself cannot conquer. The Necron and any unit it joins count as having Defensive Grenades. In addition, it may be used in the Shooting phase as a Template weapon with S5 AP4 Assault 1.

Solar Pulse
A Necron with a Solar Pulse can generate intense blasts of photons, blinding all those who would dare look into its corona. Instead of shooting, a Necron bearing a Solar Pulse may use it to inflict the Night Fighting rules on an enemy unit within line of sight. Neither Searchlights, nor Acute Senses, nor Blacksun Filters can aid a unit against a Solar Pulse as it overloads sensory systems, rather than taxing their acuity.

Nightmare Shroud
A Necron with a Nightmare Shroud can cast a pall of madness and fear on everything around it. Instead of shooting, a Necron bearing a Nightmare Shroud may activate it. Activation causes every enemy unit within 12" of the Necron to take a morale test. Fearless units must instead take a pinning test, despite normally being prohibited from doing so.

Lightening Field
Thanks to the crackling lightening field around the body of the Necron bearing this potent ward, the Necron and any unit it has joined gain an invulnerable save of 5+, and count as having Assault Grenades.

Phase Shifter
A Phase Shifter allows a Necron step out of phase with reality and back, its form stuttering like a slow motion pict-reel. Bearing this item enables a model to ignore terrain and enemy models while it moves, though not when it stops, so it cannot stop inside of terrain besides buildings, or within 1" of an enemy model. They never take difficult or dangerous terrain tests. In addition a Phase Shifter confers an Invulnerable saving throw of 3+.

Resurrection Orb
A Resurrection Orb is a Necron Power Icon.

Phylactery
These devices override the Necron directive of self-preservation, providing the Necron bearing it and any We'll Be Back unit it joins with the Fearless rule.

Chronometron
These devices allow a Necron to bend the very fabric of space-time, allowing a Necron player to re-roll one reserves roll. Each additional Chronometron in play allows the Necron player another re-roll to a reserves roll.

Veil of Darkness
A Necron can use the Veil of Darkness at the start of the turn, whether it is locked in close combat or not. If the Veil of Darkness is used, then the Necron and any unit it has joined are removed from the board and then immediately returned using the rules for Deep Strikes as if the unit was coming in from reserves. Alternately, just the Necron bearing the Veil of Darkness can be removed from the board, and immediately returned using the rules for Deep Strike joined by a We'll Be Back unit returning to the board from reserves via We'll Be Back. Additionally the Veil of Darkness confers the Deep Strike rule on a Necron and any unit it joins prior to deployment.

Units Descriptions
Head Quarters
Name: Lords
Type: Infantry
Number: 1 per unit
Points Per Model: 100
Characteristics: WS4 BS4 S5 T5 W3 I4 A3 Ld10 Sv3+
Wargear: Standard Chassis, Claws
Special Rules: We'll Be Back, Stubborn, Independent Character
Options:
May be upgraded to have a Disruption Field (+15pts)
May have either a Khopesh (+15pts), Staff of Light (+20), or a Warscythe (+25)
May have either a Lightening Field (+40), a Phase Shifter (+25), or a Gaze of Flame (+10)
May have either a Solar Pulse (+20), a Nightmare Shroud (+30), or a Veil of Darkness (+40)
May have either a Resurrection Orb (+10), a Chronometron (+15), or a Phylactery (+20)
May upgrade its Armour to either an Immortal Chassis (+15), a Destroyer Chassis (+30), or a Wraith Chassis (+50)

Name: Nobles (1-2 units per HQ slot)
Number: 1 per unit
Type: Infantry
Number: 1 per unit.
Points Per Model: 80
Characteristics: WS4 BS4 S5 T5 W2 I4 A2 Ld10 Sv3+
Wargear: Standard Chassis, Claws
Special Rules: We'll Be Back
May be upgraded to have a Disruption Field (+10)
May be upgraded to have a Khopesh (+15), Staff of Light (+20), or a Warscythe (+25)
May have either a Lightening Field (+40), or a Gaze of Flame (+10).
May have either a Nightmare Shroud (+20), or a Veil of Darkness (+40)
May have either a Resurrection Orb (+10), or a Phylactery (+20)
May upgrade its Armour to either an Immortal Chassis (+10), a Destroyer Chassis (+20), or an Infiltrator Chassis and Skin (FREE).

Elites
Name: Necron Pariahs
Number: 3-9 Pariahs per unit
Points Per Model: 20
Type: Infantry
Characteristics: WS4 BS4 S5 T5 W1 I4 A2 Ld10 Sv3+
Wargear: Standard Chassis, Claws, Nightmare Shroud
Special Rules: We'll Be Back, Psychic Abomination (Psychic powers cast within 24" canceled on 4+, only one roll per psychic power)
May be upgraded to have Disruption Fields (+5 per model)
May be upgraded to have Gauss Blasters (+5 per model)
May be upgraded to have a Khopesh (+10) or Warscythes (+15)
May be upgraded to have Soulless Perfection (Counter-Attack, or Preferred Enemy) (+5 per model)

Name: Immortals
Number: 3-9 Immortals per unit
Points Per Model: 20
Type: Infantry
Characteristics: WS4 BS4 S5 T5 W1 I3 A2 Ld10 Sv2+
Wargear: Immortal Chassis, Claws, Gauss Blaster
Special Rules: We'll Be Back
May be upgraded to have Disruption Fields (+5 per model)
May be upgraded to have Khopesh (+15 per model)
May be upgraded to have Soulless Perfection (Counter-Attack, or Preferred Enemy) (+5 per model)

Name: Tomb Spyders (1-3 units per Elite slot)
Type: Monstrous Creature
Model Per Unit: 1
Points Per Model: 100
Characteristics: WS3 BS3 S6 T6 W3 I2 A2 Ld10 Sv3+
Wargear: Standard Chassis, Claws and also Claws.
Special Rules: Construct, Artificer (confers Feel No Pain to all units within 6"), Jet Pack
May replace one set of Claws with Particle Projector (+30) or Gauss Cannon (+20)

Troops
Name: Flayed Ones
Number: 3-9 Flayed Ones per unit
Points Per Model: 15
Type: Infantry
Characteristics: WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A2 Ld10 Sv4+
Wargear: Infiltrator Chassis, Claws
Special Rules: We'll Be Back, Infiltrate, Deep Strike, Move Through Cover, Terrifying Visage (all successful hit rolls against them in the first round of combat re-rolled if they charge)
May be upgraded to have Disruption Fields (+5 per model)
May be upgraded to have Skin (Stealth) (+3 per model)

Name: Warriors
Number: 9-27 per unit
Points Per Model: 15
Type: Infantry
Characteristics: WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I3 A1 Ld10 Sv3+
Wargear: Standard Chassis, Claws, Gauss Flayer
Special Rules: We'll Be Back
May be upgraded to have Disruption Fields (+5 per model)
May replace Gauss Flayer with Khopesh (+5 per model)

Name: Scarabs
Number: 3-9 Scarab Swarms per unit
Points Per Model: 10
Type: Jump Infantry
Characteristics: WS3 BS3 S3 T3 W3 I2 A3 Ld10 Sv5+
Wargear: Scarab Chassis (Sv5+), Claws
Special Rules: Construct, Swarm, Deep Strike
May be upgraded to have Disruption Fields (+5 per model)

Fast Attack
Name: Wraiths
Number: 1-3 Wraiths per unit
Points Per Model: 50
Type: Infantry
Characteristics: WS4 BS4 S5 T5 W2 I5 A2 Ld10 Sv3+
Wargear: Wraith Chassis, Disruption Field, Claws, and more Claws
Special Rules: We'll Be Back
May upgrade one set of Claws to Power Weapons (+15 per model) or Warscythes (+25 per model)
May upgrade to have Phantom Menace (Hit and Run or Counter-Attack)(+10 per model)

Name: Destroyers
Number: 1-6 Destroyers per unit
Points Per Model: 50
Type: Infantry
Characteristics: WS4 BS4 S5 T5 W2 I3 A2 Ld10 Sv3+
Wargear: Destroyer Chassis, Claws, Gauss Cannon
Special Rules: We'll Be Back
May upgrade Gauss Cannons to Heavy Gauss Cannons (+20 per model).
May be upgraded to have Disruption Fields (+5 per model)

Heavy Support
Name: Monolith
Number: 1 per unit
Points Per Model: 200
Type: Vehicle (Tank, Skimmer)
Characteristics: FAV14 SAV14 RAV14 BS4
Wargear: Necron Power Icon, Particle Whip, Gauss Flux Arc
Special Rules: Ponderous (never faster than combat speed), Living Metal (-1 to Damage rolls, ignores Shaken and Stunned), Deep Strike, Crusher (any models under the hull upon a Deep Strike are moved out of the way rather than causing a mishap).

Name: Barque
Number: 1 per unit
Points Per Model: 150
Type: Vehicle (Tank, Skimmer, Open-topped)
Characteristics: FAV13 SAV13 RAV13 BS4
Wargear: Particle Projector
Special Rules: Living Metal, Capacious Hold (Can transport Swarms and Monstrous Creatures), Transport: 12 (up to 12 wounds worth of Necron models)

Name: Tomb Stalker
Number: 1 per unit
Points per Model: 175
Type: Monstrous Creature
Characteristics: WS3 BS3 S6 T6 W3 I2 A4 Ld10
Wargear: Two Gauss Blasters, Claws and more Claws, Disruption Field, Phase Shifter, Jet Pack, Necron Power Icon
Special Rules: Construct, Acute Senses, Hit and Run
May replace Claws with Warscythe (+25)

C'tan (0-1 per army)
Number: 1 per unit
Points Per Unit: 300
Type: Vehicle (Walker)
Characteristics: WS4 BS4 S10 FAV14 SAV14 RAV14 I4 A5
Wargear: Necron Power Icon, Nightmare Shroud, Particle Projector, Solar Flare (as Solar Pulse, but up to three different units at once), Gaze of Death (instead of regular attacks centre 5" marker over model, and all enemy models in close combat take S4 AP- hit), Warscythe, Disruption Fields, Phase Shifter, Chronometron, Jet Pack.
Special Rules: Living Metal

Edit for preliminary stab at points values.

Pretty interesting to read.

The phylactery isn't very fluffy in my opinion as I've never even heard of a Necron having a sense of self preservation.

Also I think the fact that just about every squad can purchase an item that gives them rending is a bit much.

Nightmare Shroud - For orks - base or modified leadship test for pinning?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, weren't warriors slower than Orks in CC?

Nightmare Shroud
A Necron with a Nightmare Shroud can cast a pall of madness and fear on everything around it. Instead of shooting, a Necron bearing a Nightmare Shroud may activate it, causing every unit with 12" of it, or a unit it has joined, to take a morale test. Fearless units must instead take a pinning test, despite normally being prohibited from doing so.

Is this the GW influence on you? or does the shroud really effect any Necron unit a character holding the shroud joins?

Warboss Imbad Ironskull:

According to Codex: Necrons all Necrons have an innate instinct for self-preservation, hence having Ld10 instead of beng Fearless

the_ferrett:

Depends on the number of Orks I'd imagine. So long as there's 10+ they're going to have Ld10 vs the effect of a Nightmare Shroud. Also, I decided that I3 would be better for Warriors. It doesn't matter for Sweeping Advances, and puts them on par with charging Orks and Imperial Guardsmen.

Mr. Burning:

Good eye. I'm gong to fix that.

Nuglich: If it puts them on par with orks for the first round.... how are the orks meant to destroy the Necrons in CC? Or are they not supposed to?

Interesting read. I feel that all the infantry weapons being AP1 is way OP...

the_ferret:

One imagines that they'll do it the way they've always done it, with an avalanche of attacks. This way the Warriors will take a few down with them in the offing.

agnosto:

That's why I reduced the Gauss Flayer to Assault 1. Sure, they'll ignore all armour saves, and cause +1 damage to the AV10 they can glance, but they only have one shot and it doesn't ignore cover or invulnerability. Seems about right.

So, your standard troop gets a 24" S4 Ap1 Assault 1 gun? Umm... I'd suggest you rethink that. That would just mean this becomes "Codex: BA!"

Or, you know, you could do the math and consider the strategic implications.

Nurglitch wrote:That's why I reduced the Gauss Flayer to Assault 1. Sure, they'll ignore all armour saves, and cause +1 damage to the AV10 they can glance, but they only have one shot and it doesn't ignore cover or invulnerability. Seems about right.

It makes it the best basic infantry weapon in the game and guarantees that any troops caught in the open are murdered because Necron Warriors have BS4 so they hit on a 3 and wound on a 4 (vs MEQ) so a 50% or better chance to kill anything hit. A unit of 12 warriors is nearly guaranteed to cause morale tests in any unit they shoot at, outside of cover and if you can't kill a unit of nearly anything with a full, 27-man unit, you've done some poor dice rolling.

People justify firewarriors costing 10pts and only having a BS of 2 because of their "awesome" basic weapon (S5, AP5 and 36" range). How many points will a Necron Warrior cost? 30pts each?

I like your take on WBB but don't you think it would be simpler to just give them all FnP?

agnosto:

My version of the Gauss Flayer is really not the best basic infantry weapon in the game. Sure, troops caught out in the open will be murdered. They're Necrons, that's what they're supposed to do. The solution is naturally a tactical and strategic solution: Use cover, lock them in combat, pin them down, take invulnerable troops, take masses of troops.

Incidentally, Firewarriors have BS3, it's WS2. Also, Pulse Rifles have a 30" range and they're Rapid Fire. Per shot they're going to be better than my version of Gauss Flayers against everything Sv5+, AV11+. They're worse than Bolters against Imperial Guard Infantry, Termagants, Ork Boyz, Bloodletters, and so on.

Regarding Feel No Pain: I'm simply going to quote myself from another thread.

Nurglitch wrote:Feel No Pain is boring, uncharacterful, and over-used.

Quite a while ago I proposed something similar to the original proposal, except that casualties were removed and put into reserves. Once an entire unit was back in reserves, it could be brought back onto the board via the usual reserve rules. Additionally, I'd add that Necrons would be put back in reserve if they fail Morale checks. And the difference between Necrons and Constructs would be fixed so that We'll Be Back applied to a subset of Necron units with Necron units being all units in the Codex (similar disambiguation to Chaos Space Marines and Enhanced Warriors).

The notion was to have stuff like the Resurrection Orb be like Icons to Lesser Daemons in Codex: Chaos Space Marines. Stuff like the Monolith Portal would also be an entry point back onto the board, just as it is now.

So it's sort of like combining We'll Be Back and Phase Out in that the entire army can be forced off the board with no entry points and thus forfeit the game.

This retains the balance of Necrons and Constructs, with Constructs like Monoliths providing re-entry points to the Necrons, Tomb Spyders providing a Feel No Pain aura, and so on. Basically it keeps the character of the army while retaining the opportunity for a suite of universal special rules to replace overcomplicated Necron specialist rules. That would give players the option of numberless undead robot hordes, elite super-death robots, and a mixture.

So yeah, basically Tomb Spyders provide a Feel No Pain aura via their Artificer rule, and We'll Be Back gives Necrons an undead feel of dying and returning rather than dying more slowly.

Sorry but I have to agree that AP1 for Gauss Weapons seems a little steep. I appreciate that that's what Guass weapons are meant to do but it seems far too OP and it'll make Warriors very expensive, with their natural toughness & We'll be back etc. Personally I can see GW making them into Rending weapons. I agree they should be Assault as it fits with the 'slow march of death/doom' thing. 24'' Str 4 AP 4/5 Assault 1/2, Rending - that's how I see them going. I like the Disruption Field but I could also see them counting as Assault & Defensive Grenades that always count even if they are not within cover instead/as well. I like the stacked stats for Gauss weapons - perhaps starting at AP 4 and finishing at AP 1 - all with Rending?

I like the idea of We'll Be Back being a reserve buffer type thing A LOT - but I don't think they should need Icons. Instead I'd have something like roll a dice for each model using the reserves rule before the movement phase. Any model that becomes available is placed back within the unit but the unit counts as 'Slow and Purposeful' for the remainder of the turn. Any model that fails its reserve roll is either treated as a casualty (?) or is held back in reserve but returns on a 5, then a 6, then counts as a casualty if these are failed. If the unit is wiped out they are not subject to the We'll Be Back rule - or something like that - otherwise you could have 'invincible' Troops choices depending on how beardy the Necron player is. I feel if you went with Icons Tomb Spiders should be given them. I feel the combination of Feel No Pain with the We'll be Back rule as it stands is a far too pwerful combination.

I don't think Warriors should have the option to have Power Weapons, and I'm unsure of I3, as I feel Rending from the Disruption Field (+ the possibility of making them count as Assault/Defensive Grenades always) is enough. I know this will irk you but I can see GW giving them Feel No Pain, or making Tomb Spiders confer that ability - essentially I think We'll Be Back may turn into a Feel No Pain based rule - perhaps with Tomb Spiders confering bonuses. I look forward to seeing how your dex develops though

Also, have you gotten rid of phase out? I know it's an incredibly annoying Achilles heel, but I always felt that's part of what made the Necrons so unique. With your modification to a Monolith's Living Metal, they wouldn't need phase out any more, but I'd like to see it in some form.

Is there some way to tweak it, so that it's still around in spirit but not nearly as devastating to Necrons? Perhaps tie it in with WBB, so that if you have to recycle too many squads, the Necrons just think this battle isn't worth it and leave? Set the bar high enough so that it's not a major issue, but can sometimes still come up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Drop the 12 wound transport restriction on the Barque. Make it a straight 12 models. A Lord should be able to fit in at the same size as any other model, right?

Nurglitch wrote:agnosto:

My version of the Gauss Flayer is really not the best basic infantry weapon in the game. Sure, troops caught out in the open will be murdered. They're Necrons, that's what they're supposed to do. The solution is naturally a tactical and strategic solution: Use cover, lock them in combat, pin them down, take invulnerable troops, take masses of troops.

Incidentally, Firewarriors have BS3, it's WS2. Also, Pulse Rifles have a 30" range and they're Rapid Fire. Per shot they're going to be better than my version of Gauss Flayers against everything Sv5+, AV11+. They're worse than Bolters against Imperial Guard Infantry, Termagants, Ork Boyz, Bloodletters, and so on.

Yeah, it's BS3 for firewarriors...I typed one thing and was thinking another, apparently. The point remains that for 10 points, a firewarrior has much worse stats a weapon with 6" bonus to range and the ability to rapid fire (but in reality, if a firewarrior is rapid firing, he's dead in your opponent's assault phase so it's not that great an ability) and +1 S. Honestly, I'd much rather have your 1 shot, AP1 weapon, at least then it'd kill plague marines with one shot instead of my entire army shooting a 7-man unit and killing maybe 1 after saves and FnP.

Fair enough, I certainly don't want to give the impression that I'm tearing you down or anything; I understand your thinking, I'm afraid that I just don't think it's doable while keeping the basic unit inexpensive enough to field in any numbers. Troops are meant to be cannon fodder so that the elite elements can make it across the board. What you're doing by making the basic weapons able to kill nearly anything with one shot is turning the Necrons into a Daemonhunters type of army (the elite of the elite of the elite) instead of the unstoppable, shambling horde. As we all know, any bonus abilities turn into points somewhere and by making your basic troop choice cost 30+ points, you'll completely change the flavor of the army.

While your opinion about Gauss weapons is clearly a thing of beauty and self-obvious, I think you should run the numbers and build an argument from there because I have an equally beautiful and self-obvious opinion that AP1 for Gauss weapons is a very good idea in the context of the army.

Likewise if you're not going to back up your other assignations of value ("seem a little steep", "seems far too OP", etc), your feedback is kind of useless since there's no way of judging its value. If you think something is "OP", then please explain why it is, and at least compare it to something you think it equivalent or a good point of reference. For example, agnosto at least referred to Firewarriors and Pulse Rifles, even if he got the numbers wrong.

For example, imagine that the Warriors had their initial value pegged at 15pts. Their characteristics are equivalent to those of Space Marines, although they lack Krak Grenades, Frag grenads, a Pistol, Combat Tactics, Combat Squads, And They Shall Know No Fear, half the shots of a Bolter, and no special or Heavy weapons, they make up for it by being a Revenant unit and having an AP1 shot. I'd peg Disruption Fields as +5 pts per model, and the Khopesh as +10pts per model. So you can double their price and half their numbers by giving them close combat capabilities to replace their shooting capabilities, and an anti-vehicle option. Plus the khopesh looks like a sickle so there's the image of hunched peasants labouring in the fields...

That means you'd get 12 Warriors for 180pts, so up two bodies from 10 for 180pts, eight fewer shots within 12", and 2 more between 12" and 24", a loss of effect on AV11 vehicles via shooting (hence the bulked up Gauss Cannon and Heavy Cannon). Disruptions Fields are knocked up in cost since they affect saving throws as well as armour values, as well as making up for the anti-armour deficit, and the cost of the Khopesh takes into account the loss of the Gauss Flayer.

Eventually I'll get around to explaining various design decisions, but it might be something to understand that this isn't the beginning of the design process: This is a development of something that began a long while ago. You can probably dig up an early version using the Search function.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grakmar:

Phase Out has been incorporated into We'll Be Back with Revenant units returning to the board from reserves requiring a Necron Power Icon. No Icons (or not enough Icons), and no return. Voila, Phase Out in a We'll Be Back wrapping.

The Barque can transport any models, like Scarab Swarms, Destroyers, etc. Easier to consider them by number of wounds. Don't think of it was volume so much as the number of plugs and power consumption.

agnosto:

Yes, a S4 AP1 Assault 1 weapon would be nice for Firewarriors, but there are Necron Warriors. In fact, as mentioned above, it's actually appropriate to reduce the Warriors in points to 15 from 18 because of the loss of firepower.

Uhm... no. The number of things I see wrong here... no.

Zid wrote:Uhm... no. The number of things I see wrong here... no.

Constructive, yet pithy. The zen of feedback, if you will.

Thank you from absenting your opinion from this thread.

Nurglitch wrote:Yes, a S4 AP1 Assault 1 weapon would be nice for Firewarriors, but there are Necron Warriors. In fact, as mentioned above, it's actually appropriate to reduce the Warriors in points to 15 from 18 because of the loss of firepower.

I guess we'll have to disagree then. Going by that reasoning, it'd be appropriate to reduce a firewarrior's points to 5 or 6 because of a worse save, extremely worse leadership and worse every other stat....without any special abilities...zero....unless you call the tendency to die and run screaming from the battlefield when struck by a strong wind a special ability.

And I don't necessarily agree with loss of firepower with unit sizes of up to 27...

I'll be interested in reading any batreps from playtesting. I imagine chaos players will scream when you're wiping their plague marines off the board in one turn.

They'd wound Plague Marines on a 5+ and presumably either keep them in a Rhino (invulnerable), in cover (Cv4+), or keep them out of range. Or not take Plague Marines. Or lock them down in assault.

Seriously, I'd like to hear an argument showing some math that there's something unreasonable about how I'd configured Gauss weapons here.

Nurglitch wrote:Seriously, I'd like to hear an argument showing some math that there's something unreasonable about how I'd configured Gauss weapons here.

Figure a full squad of warriors within range (24") vs. plague marines:
Total number of hits 18
Total number of wounds 6

Outside of cover, 6 dead.
Using cover, 4 dead.

Vs. MEQ:
Total number of hits 18
Total number of wounds 9

Outside of cover, 9 dead.
Using cover, 6 dead.

Vs. GEQ:
Total number of hits 18
Total number of wounds 12

Outside of cover, 12 dead.
Using cover, 8 dead.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now let's figure a bolter from a MEQ 10-man unit vs. Plague Marines:

Total number of hits 6.66 (13.33)
Total number of wounds 2.22 (4.44)

Outside of cover, .11 dead (factoring FnP). (1.2)
Cover doesn't matter.

Now, marines have special and heavy weapons so you could comfortably tack on a kill or two if they don't move.

Vs. MEQ:
Total number of hits 6.66 (13.33)
Total number of wounds 3.33 (6.66)

Outside of cover, 1.66 dead. (3.33)


Vs. GEQ (figure 4+ save):
Total number of hits 6.66 (13.33)
Total number of wounds 4.44 (8.88)

Outside of cover, 2.96 dead. (5.92)
Using cover, same.

Rapid firing should never be an issue because Marines should always assault but in the off chance it happens, I've put the relevant data in parenthesis.

So you see, for about the same price as a marine, the necron warrior is a better killer, no contest, at range AND up close.

Nurglitch wrote:
The Barque can transport any models, like Scarab Swarms, Destroyers, etc. Easier to consider them by number of wounds. Don't think of it was volume so much as the number of plugs and power consumption.

Well, then you'll have to give it a special rule. Currently, it can't.

Okay - evidence of why Warriors hurt:

We'll assume firstly that its 27 vs 30. Now that wouldn't be equal in points, but with those limits that's generally what you'd see in head to head smashes. Now you could multiassault but that's now multiple FOC slots to take down 1 squad.

So the warriors shoot - That's 12 dead as a conservative effort, not bad not bad and not unexpected either.

And for the giggles we'll givbe orks a round of shooting - say they're slugga boys. so that's '30' s4 shots. Hits 10, wounds 5. Okay, they'll come back later, we can deal with that.. later.

CC
With the charge - they hit the same time. Okay okay.
Crons - hit 4s wound 4s , 22 attacks. 11 hits, 6 wounds
Orks - hit 4s wound 4s 18*4 attacks, 18*2 hits, 18 wounds

All as expected hmmm?
Saves - Crons - make 6 unsaved wounds
Orks - make 5 unsaved wounds.

So when they're charging they're just better? And when they're charged/Next round? Bugger me dead, they're wiping the floor? All this from a Non CC army.

Gotta say, blooming impressive.

the destroyer chassis should add 1 to the toughness characteristic as in the current codex. t5 is half the point of taking bikes.

edit: unless this is implied by the jetbike rule, but for purposes of wargear, it's better not to leave it to chance.

agnosto:

So, let's review. The Necron Warriors have 27 shots, hitting on 3+ for 18 hits, 6 of which wound, 3 if they're in cover.

Looks pretty painful, until you realise that you're figuring 405 points of Necron unit shooting. Two Assault Terminator Squads with Thunder Hammers would do 20 attacks, hitting on 4+ for 10 hits, 8 of which wound. And the Necrons are still more expensive, less protected, and so on.

Let's see what would happen if a Battle Squad or three of Chaos Space Marines opened fire with their Bolters. I say a Battle Squad or three, because Chaos Space Marines are also pegged at 15 points apeice and don't have all those extra rules and funky junk.

So, at 12"-24" you'd get 27 shots at 3+, 18 hits at 5+ to wound, 6 wounds at 3+ to save, 2 unsaved wounds at 4+ to Feel No Pain. One Plague Marine buys it. So if they were in cover, the Gauss Flayer is a 300% improvement over the Bolter.

At 12" and under, you'd get 54 shots at 3+, 36 hits at 5+ to wound, 12 wounds at 3+ to save, and 4 unsaved wounds at 4+ to Feel No Pain. Two Plague Marines buy it. So if they were in cover, the Gauss Flayer is only at a 50% improvement over the Bolter.

It gets better if we down-grade to Space Marines. 27 Warriors in range could expect 18 hits, 9 wounds, and 9 Space Marine casualties out of cover and 4.5 in cover, while 27 Chaos Space Marines in range could expect 3 at 12"-24" and 6 at 12"-24" regardless of cover.

If we down-grade to Orks then the Necrons can expect 9 Ork casualties out of cover and 4.5 Ork casualties in cover. The Chaos Space Marines can expect 9 Ork casualties out of cover and 4.5 Ork casualties in cover, between 12" and 24". Within 12" the Chaos Space Marines can expect 18 Ork casualties out of cover and 9 in cover.

So for the same price as a Necron, the Chaos Space Marine is better at killing Sv5+ models. I regard this flattening of target-effect to be a good thing since it limits their abilities against hordes of troops, and we're only consider Bolters vs Gauss Flayers and not, say, Plasma Cannons or somesuch.

Similarly, with the_ferret's example of 405pts of Warriors vs 180pts of Slugga Boys, the numbers are again appropriate. Supposing, somewhat counter-intuitively, that there's 30 Boyz within 12" of a Warrior, then that's 30 shots, 10 hits, 5 wounds, 1.6 or about 2 Warriors buy it.

Then the 30 Slugga Boyz charge, attacking simultaneously with 25 Warriors left. That's 120 attacks, 60 hit, 30 wound, 10 unsaved. The Warriors inflict 25 attacks on the Boyz, 12.5 hits, 6.25 wounds, 5 unsaved wounds. The Boyz win by 5, meaning that the 15 surviving Necrons either pass a morale test by Ld5 or get removed from the table and placed in reserves. Not bad.

But lets suppose the Warriors do get a round of shooting in. Recall the shooting vs the Orks. We can reasonably expect only 25 Orks to shoot the Necrons with their sluggas, for 1.38 expected casualties, or 1 casualty. That means 100 Ork attacks, 50 hits, 25 wounds, 8.33 failed saves, or 8 Necron casualties, while 26 Necron attacks, 13 hits, 6.5 wounds, and 5.5 unsaved wounds, or 6 Ork casualties means that the Orks still win although by a narrower margin. The surviving 19 Necrons stick around on a Ld roll of 8 or less.

Either way, not bad for assaulting a force with 44% of its points in troops.

Let's consider 27 Chaos Space Marines assaulting the same 27 strong horde. The Chaos Space Marines go first with their magnificent armament of Pistols and Close Combat Weapons. That's 81 attacks, 40.5 hits, 20.25 wounds, 6.75 unsaved wounds, or ~7 casualties. 20 Necrons attack back, 10 hits, 5 wounds, 1.67 unsaved wounds for ~2 casualties. Chaos Space Marines win by 5...

I'm sorry, but again these numbers look right. They still get flattened by a stampede of Ork boyz less than half their value, are distinctly subpar at anti-horde, and still can't handle AV11.

On a different note, however, I'm inclined to readjust the range on Gauss Flayers to 18" because 24" wouldn't encourage the encroachy hordiness I'm going for here.

Grakmar:

Good point about the Swarms and Monstrous Creatures. I shall add a special rule.


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hemingway:

I'm leaving the Toughness bonus off, but you have a good point that it isn't clear. I will attempt to clarify.

I actually think that S4 AP1 assault 1 gauss flayers are perfectly reasonable although I would prefer the range to be 18" (to balance the terminator killing ability by allowing the enemy squad could get into rapidfire range next during their turn).
The weapons that I think are OP are the gauss blasters and cannons because they get multiple shots at higher strength.
A unit of 9 destroyers with gauss cannons (heavy or not) gets 27 shots at while being fast, tough and relentless.
27 gauss cannon shots= 18 hits = 15 wounds on Geq, Meq or Teq and 9 wounds on a TMC. On average they will kill a full marine or terminator squad or 2 carnifexes per turn (assuming no cover) or 7-8 marines/terminators with cover (or 5 TH/SS termies).
Heavy gauss cannons will ID T4 models and cause 15 wounds on TMC per turn (killing a full brood of carnifexes). 5 destroyers with heavy gauss cannons get 15 shots=10 hits= 8.33 wounds, killing one greater daemon per turn on average.

A unit of 9 Immortals or pariahs gets 18 shots = 12 hits = 8 wounds on Meq/Teq or 10 on Geq or 4 on TMC.
All of these guns have 24" range which means that they will get at least 2 rounds of shooting before getting charged (3-4 rounds if they're walking backwards while shooting). Since you have no guns with longer than 36" range in this codex I would suggest increasing the range on the gauss cannons and lowering their rate of fire. If you want to make them better tank killers then maybe give them the lance rule. I think that making the gauss blaster rapid-fire (and giving immortals and pariahs relentless) would also be a good idea if you want to keep them relatively cheap.

I do think that the WBB rule boosts the warriors above 15 points (because when they die they can simply be redeployed). There really is no comparison unit for necrons because WBB completely changes how the unit works; with this army I would be perfectly comfortable charging warriors at a cc army so that when they die I can redeploy them (around necron lords sitting near objectives) and give them extra rounds of shooting. I'm worried that the battle may revolve too much around necron lords and monoliths since they make every thing else practically invincible though. What do you think about giving WBB a chance to fail or making the coming in from reserve a deepstrike (and therefore inherently risky).

Random observation: Lords and nobles have no shooting attacks other than gaze of flame, was this intentional?

I'd like to point out that re-deploying a Revenant unit from reserves is slightly harder than you might imagine. You have to make the reserve roll, and have Necron Power Icon free to do so. If they're competing with a unit coming in from reserves, either the arriving unit uses the Icon and the returning unit is gone, or the returning unit uses the Icon and the arriving unit walks on.

As mentioned earlier this wraps Phase Out in a We'll Be Back wrapping, meaning that you take a risk every time a Necron Revenant unit is destroyed, and it makes Necron Power Icons a brittle point in the army.

Also, tarpitting Revenants so that they stay on the board scoring pyhrric victory round after close combat round is a good idea, if you have the resources and wherewithal to carry it off.

Regarding Lords and Nobles, I have a personal preference for HQs to function as enhancing and coordinating an army rather than doing the heavy lifting, so the lack of shooting is intentional. That's why the Gauss Cannon and the Heavy Gauss Cannon are crushingly powerful, to compensate for the segregation of anti-tank firepower where previously any Necron unit could down a vehicle unit. Looking at it though, I think I might restrict some of the items available to Nobles as they're currently a no-brainer for some combinations of items (why take a Lord with a Chonometron when more Nobles can take them?).

Regarding then the larger Gauss Weapons, consider that a unit of nine Destroyers can only shoot one unit per turn. Yeah, they'll make a hash of it, but then nine Destroyers is an investment equivalent to nine Battlesuits or 27 Warriors... I don't want to use Lance or similar rules to represent their anti-tank ability since they're moreso death-rays rather than spears of energy, and I don't want to make vehicles too easy for them. I do think that making them twin-linked to enhance reliability at the cost of potential is a good compromise though. I think I'll tweak them slightly that way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also fiddled around with the Tomb Stalker's stats, adjusted the Monolith so it can Deep Strike without mishap on enemy units (they get moved out of the way), and I gave Nobles and Lords the options of a Khopesh. It might be an idea to give them the options of a flail-like weapon to riff on the whole crook and flail symbolism but I can't really see much reason to include something like that in the game. Maybe just as an option for a Lord, like Digital Lasers or similar +1A item?


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Hmm, they're called "Nekhakh". I'm thinking just a Close Combat Weapon. 15pts for a Khopesh, and 10pts for a Nekhakh sounds about right.

If a Revenant unit is in destroyed and goes to reserves but no power icons are available is it immediately destroyed? Do the reserve rolls always start at 4+ or is it determined by the turn number?

Here's a scenario:
Say I have an army with a Monolith and two nobles with resurrection orbs. The monolith is very hard to kill (because of living metal, AV14 and I'm assuming it still die from weapon destroyed or immobilised results) and the nobles sit in the back of my army on objectives/out of sight and use solar pulses to blind anything that can hurt the monolith (multi-meltas, lascannons etc). Every turn I can walk my towards your killiest units and shoot them, unless you have vehicles most of your units will probably die, and if you kill my units they teleport back to my objectives/monolith. I can lose up to three units per turn without any risks and if those are large units of warriors then they'll be hard to kill anyway.
Unless I'm facing an army with huge amounts of long-range firepower (imperial guard), lots of tanks or enough speed to get to the nobles my army can inflict kill a lot of stuff before dieing and then simply get back up and kill more stuff.
While I like the idea of your WBB and necron power icons I think potentially infinite respawn is OP. Power icons seem fairly easy to get and hard to kill so I don't think they're enough of a weakness to compensate.

balthydes:

Correct. If the Revenant unit is destroyed, or fails a morale test, then it goes into reserves. If no Necron Power Icon is available in the next player turn when the unit makes its reserves roll, then they are destroyed. The reserve roll is determined by the turn of the game, as normal, so units will regenerate faster in the latter turns of the game.

I had considered starting a separate reserve count-down for each unit, but extra work aside, they already risk stiff competition over Necron Power Icons at that late stage in the game anyways.

So let's consider your scenario:

The Monolith is going to be more vulnerable than before, despite the anti-AP1 of the Living Metal. All those Lances, Melta weapons, Monstrous Creatures, and whatnot are going to hurt. The Nobles can hide at the back of the army, in theory, but in practice they're going to be jumped by all the stuff that usually jumps units trying to lurk at the back of an army (Terminators, Vanguard, Snikrot, Genestealers, Lictors, etc).

Supposing that they may have a line of sight to a unit that can hurt the Monolith and get their one-shot Solar Pulses from their Staffs of Light, and that they can therefore somehow survive unscathed as they hurl hordes of Necrons at the enemy, while recycling them from turn to turn, then the potential for respawning is good.

But consider: If you get lucky and units respawn the turn after they are destroyed, then they're going to respawn from the Nobles and the Monolith hiding in the backfield. And you'll only have three respawn points, one of which cannot come back.

So either your respawn points are going to need to be near the objectives, where it's both useful and dangerous to be, or they're going to need to be away from the objectives where it is safe and less useful to be. Using a Veil of Darkness is just going to put your Noble in harm's way, but otherwise the Necrons are going to have to slog it back to the fighting.

Nobles are W2 Independent Characters, and you can have up to 4 of them, and up to 3 Necron Power Icons in Heavy Support which will need concentrate power to kill, but won't come back. Consider if your Nobles start getting killed or engage in tactical retreats, suddenly you have more units requiring fewer portals back onto the field.

So no, you won't be able to lose up to three units a turn without risk because you will be risking three things:

(1) That they might not make their reserve roll next turn and leave the Necron Power Icon bearers high and dry as the remaining targets of opportunity,

(2) Incur the opportunity cost matrix outlined above, such that either the Necron Power Icons are somewhere useful and dangerous or less useful but safer. Optimizing this will require tactics, and that can only be good.

(3) If the units with the Necron Power Icons are the units you lose, your army will no longer respawn, and the odd Tank Shock by a 35pt Rhino may cause 405pts of Necron Warriors to misuse what little free will they have left (and count as destroyed).

Furthermore consider the implications for a kill-point game: Respawning risks giving away kill-points to the enemy. Not really that important, but still a wedge issue.

Please give the Lord more then 4 ws/bs.
Please.
He's like older then anything. Ever. You think he woulda picked up some tricks along the way.