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6 shots to take out 1 rhino? Wth are you firing, cheese rounds?

I takes me 2 shots maximum to take out a rhino and has not failed me yet. Even with using A.S.S

6 shots to take out 1 rhino? Wth are you firing, cheese rounds?

I takes me 2 shots maximum to take out a rhino and has not failed me yet. Even with using A.S.S

Then you're very lucky the maths doesn't lie. It takes on average 6 railgun shots without TA/ML support to take down a Rhino.

FlingitNow wrote:

6 shots to take out 1 rhino? Wth are you firing, cheese rounds?

I takes me 2 shots maximum to take out a rhino and has not failed me yet. Even with using A.S.S

Then you're very lucky the maths doesn't lie. It takes on average 6 railgun shots without TA/ML support to take down a Rhino.

average number of kills for penetrating or glancing hit killing (per shot): 49/144 which is about .34 kills
double that with 2 shots is 47/72 which is about .65 kills
add another one to total 3 shots is 139/144 which is about .97 kills
add another one to total 4 shots is 23/18 which is about 1.27 kills

Ummm....I know my math isn't that good but I'm pretty sure between 3 and 4 shots is < 6.

average number of kills for penetrating or glancing hit killing (per shot): 49/144 which is about .34 kills
double that with 2 shots is 47/72 which is about .65 kills
add another one to total 3 shots is 139/144 which is about .97 kills
add another one to total 4 shots is 23/18 which is about 1.27 kills

Ummm....I know my math isn't that good but I'm pretty sure between 3 and 4 shots is < 6.

Your maths is off please see over leaf the maths is all there spelt out for you. If you beleive I've made an error please point it out. Here it is again for convenience:

3/4 hit = 15/24 penetrate = 15/48 after smoke = 15/96 destroy

3/4 hit = 3/24 penetrate = 3/48 after smoke = 3/288 destroy

48/288 = 1/6 exactly

Your error is here: "average number of kills for penetrating or glancing hit killing (per shot): 49/144 which is about .34 kills " That final number should read 1/6 not 49/144

FlingitNow wrote:
Your error is here: "average number of kills for penetrating or glancing hit killing (per shot): 49/144 which is about .34 kills " That final number should read 1/6 not 49/144

Your error is here :-

Don't mislead others by taking into account smoke. It is not as if you can smoke for 5 turns. Mathhammering that way is epic failure.
And obviously the argument was for TA against A.S.S. You failed once again.

Mathhammer is my friend. It told me that Cyclic Ion Blaster is horrible, as well as Kroot Guns.

Davicus, it seems like you're getting a little excited...

guys, can we chill out? honestly?

FlingitNow wrote:

average number of kills for penetrating or glancing hit killing (per shot): 49/144 which is about .34 kills
double that with 2 shots is 47/72 which is about .65 kills
add another one to total 3 shots is 139/144 which is about .97 kills
add another one to total 4 shots is 23/18 which is about 1.27 kills

Ummm....I know my math isn't that good but I'm pretty sure between 3 and 4 shots is < 6.

Your maths is off please see over leaf the maths is all there spelt out for you. If you beleive I've made an error please point it out. Here it is again for convenience:

3/4 hit = 15/24 penetrate = 15/48 after smoke = 15/96 destroy

3/4 hit = 3/24 penetrate = 3/48 after smoke = 3/288 destroy

48/288 = 1/6 exactly

Your error is here: "average number of kills for penetrating or glancing hit killing (per shot): 49/144 which is about .34 kills " That final number should read 1/6 not 49/144

Here is the thing, my aprox. does not in this instance take into account any external stimuli (as you did not want any bonuses to the bs of the broadsides) making this aprox. as valid on turn 1 as turn 7. Taking into account a once a game ability makes the formula more accurate only when dealing with that one instance, in all other instances it makes the aprox. completely invalid. My point was, original, that there is almost no difference between hitting between two low number (for example 12 and 11). You countered this by saying that the a.s.s. allowed you to move into position to kill easier, and then cite the rhino as an example. Neglecting the front and side armor of a rhino is 11, I was attempting to demonstrate why the extra shooting accuracy was more effective than the movement (especially if you deploy well).

All I was trying to do was show what I believed an error to be in a suggested list. Forgive me if it seems that I veered off topic to prove a point.

The Bringer wrote:Mathhammer is my friend. It told me that Cyclic Ion Blaster is horrible, as well as Kroot Guns.

Davicus, it seems like you're getting a little excited...

I disagree the CIB ain't half bad.
Its EV profile is

CYCLIC ION BLASTER
MEQ Hits = 3.3
MEQ Saves = 0.56
MEQ Wounds = 0.74

IG Hits = 3.3
IG Saves = 0
IG Wounds = 1.67


Compare that to the Plasma which EV is

PLASMA RIFLE (both IG and MEQ)
Hits = 0.67
Saves = 0
Wounds = 0.56

At rapid fire this doubles to 1.1.

It doesn't really seem that half bad. And in battle my CIB + PF does wonders on a close up MEQ.

Here is the thing, my aprox. does not in this instance take into account any external stimuli (as you did not want any bonuses to the bs of the broadsides) making this aprox. as valid on turn 1 as turn 7. Taking into account a once a game ability makes the formula more accurate only when dealing with that one instance, in all other instances it makes the aprox. completely invalid. My point was, original, that there is almost no difference between hitting between two low number (for example 12 and 11). You countered this by saying that the a.s.s. allowed you to move into position to kill easier, and then cite the rhino as an example. Neglecting the front and side armor of a rhino is 11, I was attempting to demonstrate why the extra shooting accuracy was more effective than the movement (especially if you deploy well).

I didn't say this. I said the ASS is a better option than the TA. I never stated why, IMHO it is due to 2 reasons. 1 You can overcome the lack of TA with ML support you can't overcome a lack of an ASS with anything. 2 is that DoW screws you if you don't have ASS, even without BSF as the enemy can be so close from the beginning and you can't as easily position in turn 1 so could require further positioning in turn 2. But I do like the TA option as well as that is used pretty much every turn where as the ASS will probably only be used once per game.

Why I brought up the Rhino was because someone said that they reliably neuter Land Raiders with 2 shots which is BS. The reason I use the example with smoke is because you get generally 1 turn to stop that Rhino with shooting before the enemy is upon you and blowing it up after then is pretty pointless...

FlingitNow wrote:

Here is the thing, my aprox. does not in this instance take into account any external stimuli (as you did not want any bonuses to the bs of the broadsides) making this aprox. as valid on turn 1 as turn 7. Taking into account a once a game ability makes the formula more accurate only when dealing with that one instance, in all other instances it makes the aprox. completely invalid. My point was, original, that there is almost no difference between hitting between two low number (for example 12 and 11). You countered this by saying that the a.s.s. allowed you to move into position to kill easier, and then cite the rhino as an example. Neglecting the front and side armor of a rhino is 11, I was attempting to demonstrate why the extra shooting accuracy was more effective than the movement (especially if you deploy well).

I didn't say this. I said the ASS is a better option than the TA. I never stated why, IMHO it is due to 2 reasons. 1 You can overcome the lack of TA with ML support you can't overcome a lack of an ASS with anything. 2 is that DoW screws you if you don't have ASS, even without BSF as the enemy can be so close from the beginning and you can't as easily position in turn 1 so could require further positioning in turn 2. But I do like the TA option as well as that is used pretty much every turn where as the ASS will probably only be used once per game.

Why I brought up the Rhino was because someone said that they reliably neuter Land Raiders with 2 shots which is BS. The reason I use the example with smoke is because you get generally 1 turn to stop that Rhino with shooting before the enemy is upon you and blowing it up after then is pretty pointless...

First of yes, markerlights rock and can do wonders, but I have learned the hard way...Don't expect them to work when you need them to...they will fail you lol.

Secondly, you use a.s.s. for DoW? Great, you can get your d6" move into position and then fire with night fight...And if your close enough with those sides to hit something, they are close enough to die.

Heck, imo a.s.s. has absolutely no benefit that is greater than the potential benefit of just about ANY other support system...

I did have my mathammer charts off for the CIB... shame on me.

FlingitNow wrote:1 You can overcome the lack of TA with ML support you can't overcome a lack of an ASS with anything.

FLAWED
Overcome with smart deployment.
You spend points for MLs too, it's not like they come for free.
Spending ML for a single RailGun shot on a SINGLE transport is a total waste. Spending MLs on a squad of 3 RailGuns for a SINGLE transport is an OVERKILL. MLs are mostly used on FireKnives against a SQUAD of infantry.

FlingitNow wrote: 2 is that DoW screws you if you don't have ASS, even without BSF as the enemy can be so close from the beginning and you can't as easily position in turn 1 so could require further positioning in turn 2.

You need 2 turns (with move + run) to position a Broadside properly?? Really?

FlingitNow wrote:But I do like the TA option as well as that is used pretty much every turn where as the ASS will probably only be used once per game.

Not that this is true, but if it is, then you are slapping yourself in the face. Why spend points on something you ll use only once, when you can spend points on something you ll use for almost throughout the game.

Davicus, calm down. Nobody's attacking you.

I think A.S.S. is just a matter of preference. I think it is one of the more useful systems for broadsides. If you can deploy on a high hill so you see the whole board, good for you. Not everyone can use ideal deployment, and the enemy won't always be directly in your LOS.

No smart deployment could really ever ensure that you always see enemy tanks.

The Bringer wrote:Davicus, calm down. Nobody's attacking you.

Wait, you see smoke? Otherwise, justify your words.

The Bringer wrote:I think A.S.S. is just a matter of preference. I think it is one of the more useful systems for broadsides. If you can deploy on a high hill so you see the whole board, good for you. Not everyone can use ideal deployment, and the enemy won't always be directly in your LOS.

No smart deployment could really ever ensure that you always see enemy tanks.

Which is why you don't deploy 2 squads of broadsides together...

Davicus I think he saw the "FLAWED" and thought you where shouting.

The DoW point was quite valid as it counts as walking on from the board edge and you may not get the best deployment out of that.

So A.S.S allows you to fire turn 1 and then better position yourself turn 2 and fire with more success hopefully. Although the ability to fire Turn one on DoW is reason enough I mean if you can neuter that Land raider turn 1 then great.

syanticraven wrote:Davicus I think he saw the "FLAWED" and thought you where shouting.

The DoW point was quite valid as it counts as walking on from the board edge and you may not get the best deployment out of that.

So A.S.S allows you to fire turn 1 and then better position yourself turn 2 and fire with more success hopefully. Although the ability to fire Turn one on DoW is reason enough I mean if you can neuter that Land raider turn 1 then great.

2 words - Night Fight.

Davicus wrote:

syanticraven wrote:Davicus I think he saw the "FLAWED" and thought you where shouting.

The DoW point was quite valid as it counts as walking on from the board edge and you may not get the best deployment out of that.

So A.S.S allows you to fire turn 1 and then better position yourself turn 2 and fire with more success hopefully. Although the ability to fire Turn one on DoW is reason enough I mean if you can neuter that Land raider turn 1 then great.

2 words - Night Fight.

That was 3 words.
And the point is moot, you can still actually fire and hope to strike lucky on your rolls where as no A.S.S = no firing at all.
Oh then you can move forward some more for an extra D6" meaning you need to roll less and still fire.

Please don't act cute - Night Fight = 2 words. Obviously average comprehension skill would tell you that.

Yes of course you can stand like 36-48inches away and pretend you are lucky and can see. I don't go against the odds... Maybe you do, that's why everything seems moot to you.

Give the attitude a rest I was having a joke.

If you want me to explain it to you then the sentence "2 words - Night Fight." Contains 1 number, 3 words, a hyphen and a full stop. I was making a joke that you had already said 1 word.
It similar to the "Can I ask you 1 question?" joke people make when you ask them that.

And I would much rather go against the odds then have none at all. It makes me feel better to know that if DoW comes up I have a chance still to use my 200pt unit to some effect then it being a useless and a waste.

syanticraven wrote:And I would much rather go against the odds then have none at all. It makes me feel better to know that if DoW comes up I have a chance still to use my 200pt unit to some effect then it being a useless and a waste.

Your expected return = super low probability of seeing x 200pt
instead of purchasing TA to make your 200 pt unit give you greater expected returns for the rest of the 4-6 turns, you are giving that up for the negligible expected return on turn 1.

Proper mathhammering and sound reasoning is what differentiates good players from mediocre ones.

Tactics is what makes the difference.

I want that first and 2nd turn edge because by the 3rd turn they are in my face and it is all over for my broadsides unless they survive combat.

syanticraven wrote:Tactics is what makes the difference.

I want that first and 2nd turn edge because by the 3rd turn they are in my face and it is all over for my broadsides unless they survive combat.

Tactic and the above 2 attributes are not mutually exclusive, you don't know what you are talking here.

As debated above, you have negligible edge on turn 1, and no edge on turn 2 (in fact at a disadvantage throughout the rest of the game from here onwards). So again, I don't know what you are talking about here.

I am trying to be civil and you are making that rather hard you know.

Turn 2 I have advantage as I can move to better my view of the field or to hit that tank that need to die, in the side or in a way that negates its cover save. I want the best possible chance to kill tanks before turn 3 rolls round and I have to run away.

Me too. I am just laughing at your idea, not you.

D6 movement don't suddenly grant you side shots, or negate cover. I ve played enough games competitively to back that claim up. If you want that to happen, take HH with MT.

With regards to view of the field, I have already explained that you need to deploy 2 squads of broadsides away from each other (to cover all possible arcs of firing lane). Do read previous posts.

Instead of trying to be defensive, feel free to playtest a couple of games for the deployment of your broadsides, and come back to me again if you realize i m seriously wrong.

I'm not being to defensive just trying to say they are not a complete flop they do have their uses - It may not always pay off but it feels great when it does. Especially if you only have 1 unit of Broadsides.

As I said. I personally use the TA when I play.

syanticraven wrote:...It may not always pay off but it feels great when it does. Especially if you only have 1 unit of Broadsides.

So you are saying that you should take something that isn't useful more than 1/18 of the time (1 out of 6 turns in 1 out of 3 games)? Idk about you, but I would definitely prefer something that can be used more effectively more often (TA,TL,MT(big maybe, but still better than a.s.s.), basically everything except blacksun filters).

And you only have 1 tankbusting squad? That seems like a problem. And if you are going to say "Don't be stupid Weasel King, of course I have more anti tank", then use the 1 team of sides one what the can see with good deployment and use the other stuff (suicide suits, maybe seekers(not my choice...)) to kill what the sides can't see.

Personally I prefer running 2 teams of 2 sides where 1 side has 2 shield drones (cc tie up if it comes to it and invul saves), 1 is team lead with t.l. and b.k.(hit multiple light tanks and allow reroll of failed moral if the 2 drones die), and both have plasma rifles. True the rifles aren't overly useful unless the sides become targeted for death by med. range stuff (which they normally are). My sides have NEVER had a turn (other than t1 DoW because of nf) where there was nothing to shoot at. And if you REALLY REALLY REALLY wana kill a tank that has popped smoke(I advise just shooting something else for 1 turn), just throw a few m.lights on it to remove that pesky smoke cover.

Edit: Made it a little less of a mini wall

No Im not saying you should take it. Just that it is a valid choice to take for my said reasons if you want to take it.

syanticraven wrote:No Im not saying you should take it. Just that it is a valid choice to take for my said reasons if you want to take it.

The problem is every reason you have stated has boiled down to night fight. And the effectiveness of a.s.s. in nf has been refuted a few times by the fact that in order to even see the enemy you have to be uncomfortably close (which usually results in death). If your that worried about 1 turn of having to move, I would suggest not taking any army that relies on heavy weapons. DoW is not even that detremental to simply a broadside or 2.

Try taking my tau sniper army (3 sniper teams, 2x8man paths 3 with rails, and deep striking vespids, and plasma/fusion suits doing their ninja thing ), over half my army is heavy weapons(or deepstriking). In fact, I win a decent amount of my DoW games simply by good deployment off the board edge.

You just have to be smarter than normal on what you have to do. Try bringing the sides in to shoot where the tanks will be t2, not where they are t1 of DoW.

While m.lights can minimize poor rolling, skill can minimize not being able to shoot your 2-4 models for 1 turn.

davicus can you not post on my threads anymore please? i asked for some help not you whining that everybody is stupid and arguing points.