one handed guns and close combat

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**Scott-S6**

Gwar! wrote:
Scott-S6 wrote:
forkbanger wrote:Pistols do.
Non-Pistols don't.

Unless they are described in their codex as being single-handed.

Only the oldest codexes still have these descriptions.
Which are almost exclusively Pistols or CCW of some sort.

Almost exclusively, is right. There are one or two oddities.

**Kommissar Kel**

Scott-S6 wrote:
Gwar! wrote:
Scott-S6 wrote:
forkbanger wrote:Pistols do.
Non-Pistols don't.

Unless they are described in their codex as being single-handed.

Only the oldest codexes still have these descriptions.
Which are almost exclusively Pistols or CCW of some sort.

Almost exclusively, is right. There are one or two oddities.

And if those oddities are ranged weapons that are not Pistols; nor state in their rules that they are also/can be CCWs then it really doesn't matter how many hands they take to wield(aside from Purchase requirements), they are not close combat weapons.

**Frankie**

don_mondo wrote:Yes, they do. Any two single-handed weapons can give the +1 bonus. Class of weapon doesn't matter, it can be Assault (Callidus Neural Shredder, for example) or some heretofore unkown single handed Heavy weapon. All that matters is that the model has two single-handed weapons and isn't breaking any of the other rules (powerfists, more than one special, etc). The fact that all pistols automatically count as close combat weapons does not rule out the possibility of other weapons doing so as well.

Page 37:
• +1 Two Weapons: Engaged models with two singlehanded weapons (typically a close combat weapon and/or pistol in each hand) get an extra +1 attack. Models with more than two weapons gain no additional benefit – you only get one extra attack, even if you have more than two weapons.

Note, typically, not exclusively.

Page 42:
FIGHTING WITH TWO SINGLE-HANDED WEAPONS
Some models are equipped with two single-handed weapons they can use in close combat, with the rules given below for the different possible combinations.

Again, it merely references single-handed weapons, without limiting it to any single class of weapon.

So yes, if you have a one-handed gun, be it Heavy, Rapid Fire, or Assault, it would give the +1 attack when combined with any other single-handed weapon.

So, wait a minute. Your saying if a model has a pistol AND a CC weapon he gains an extra attack for each weapon?
For example: If a chaos marine has a chainsword in one hand and a bolt pistol in the other, how many attacks would he gain?

**Gwar!**

Frankie wrote:So, wait a minute. Your saying if a model has a pistol AND a CC weapon he gains an extra attack for each weapon?
For example: If a chaos marine has a chainsword in one hand and a bolt pistol in the other, how many attacks would he gain?

That isn't what he has saying at all.

You get a single bonus attack if you have two or more close combat weapons (which pistols are).

Furthermore, the model could be holding a banana for all the rules care. The rules for the model have to say he has two ccw to get the attack.

**Leo_the_Rat**

Actually the rules say that he has to have 2 one handed weapons to gain the extra attack. There is no specific rule that says that they have to be designated a CCW and/or pistol.

**Frankie**

Gwar! wrote:
Frankie wrote:So, wait a minute. Your saying if a model has a pistol AND a CC weapon he gains an extra attack for each weapon?
For example: If a chaos marine has a chainsword in one hand and a bolt pistol in the other, how many attacks would he gain?
That isn't what he has saying at all.

You get a single bonus attack if you have two or more close combat weapons (which pistols are).

Furthermore, the model could be holding a banana for all the rules care. The rules for the model have to say he has two ccw to get the attack.

Oh, okay. So you only gain one extra attack from having two weapons. Thanks.

**Xca|iber**

This argument has no purpose. There are no single handed ranged weapons that are not pistols (or do not exclusively count as close combat weapons).

No post Black Templars codex defines any ranged weapon as single handed, and all previous codices' single handed items are either pistols, CCWs, not weapons, or count as CCWs.

The Neural Shredder is never defined as a single handed weapon. You don't gain a bonus attack from it.

**luggnuts**

Scott-S6 wrote:
forkbanger wrote:Pistols do.
Non-Pistols don't.

Unless they are described in their codex as being single-handed.

Only the oldest codexes still have these descriptions.

but what if they are single handed but not pistol

**Spetulhu**

Xca|iber wrote:TThe Neural Shredder is never defined as a single handed weapon. You don't gain a bonus attack from it.

Q. Does the Callidus Assassin’s neural shredder
count as a single or two-handed weapon?
A. Single handed

From the GW WH FAQ document found here:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180142_Witch_Hunters_FAQ_2004-08_5th_Edition.pdf

Just the FAQ section though, not the Errata... meaning it's how the staff play it.

**luggnuts**

Xca|iber wrote:This argument has no purpose. There are no single handed ranged weapons that are not pistols (or do not exclusively count as close combat weapons).

No post Black Templars codex defines any ranged weapon as single handed, and all previous codices' single handed items are either pistols, CCWs, not weapons, or count as CCWs.

The Neural Shredder is never defined as a single handed weapon. You don't gain a bonus attack from it.

but what if for example on meganobz who have an assault weapon on one hand and a powerklaw on the other would they gain a bonus

**Xca|iber**

luggnuts wrote:
Scott-S6 wrote:
forkbanger wrote:Pistols do.
Non-Pistols don't.

Unless they are described in their codex as being single-handed.

Only the oldest codexes still have these descriptions.

but what if they are single handed but not pistol

Since the rules that refer to single handed weapons granting bonus attacks are under the Close Combat Rules, most players I know interpret that as only referring to close combat weapons.

Not that it matters much. The only codices with such weapons that are not pistols are DH and WH. All other codices (that have armouries which define single and two handed weaponry) do not have single handed ranged weapons that are not pistols. Newer codices do not define "handedness" which means that NO, you do not get the bonus unless your ranged weapon is a Pistol type.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

luggnuts wrote:
Xca|iber wrote:This argument has no purpose. There are no single handed ranged weapons that are not pistols (or do not exclusively count as close combat weapons).

No post Black Templars codex defines any ranged weapon as single handed, and all previous codices' single handed items are either pistols, CCWs, not weapons, or count as CCWs.

The Neural Shredder is never defined as a single handed weapon. You don't gain a bonus attack from it.

but what if for example on meganobz who have an assault weapon on one hand and a powerklaw on the other would they gain a bonus

Read the rules for power fists and you will learn the answer to that question.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spetulhu wrote:
Xca|iber wrote:TThe Neural Shredder is never defined as a single handed weapon. You don't gain a bonus attack from it.

Q. Does the Callidus Assassin’s neural shredder
count as a single or two-handed weapon?
A. Single handed

From the GW WH FAQ document found here:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180142_Witch_Hunters_FAQ_2004-08_5th_Edition.pdf

Just the FAQ section though, not the Errata... meaning it's how the staff play it.

Ah, didn't see that. Basically then, we're arguing over less than half a dozen weapons in the entire game, used exclusively by two armies that very few people play, on models that are not really all that good either way.

**Spetulhu**

Xca|iber wrote:Basically then, we're arguing over less than half a dozen weapons in the entire game, used exclusively by two armies that very few people play, on models that are not really all that good either way.

Basically yes, although the thread (as usual) started from asking if you'd get the +1A for a model that holds a gun one-handed and has a CCW of some sort already. This time it was orks and not Terminators, but same deal anyway. Someone sees the "single-handed" part in the Assault rules and immediately comes to think of all those heroically posed models that heft a ranged weapon onehanded where normal men use two hands for it.

**thunderingjove**

This discussion is not without merit. I asked something similar last week about the big mek; he is allowed to exchange is choppas (a sword) for a burna while retaining his slugga (a pistol). To my mind the burna would act like a choppa in close combat (i.e., a blunt, bashing object) and the slugga would confer the extra attack per the pistol-in-combat rule. But the forum said no.

**Xca|iber**

thunderingjove wrote:This discussion is not without merit. I asked something similar last week about the big mek; he is allowed to exchange is choppas (a sword) for a burna while retaining his slugga (a pistol). To my mind the burna would act like a choppa in close combat (i.e., a blunt, bashing object) and the slugga would confer the extra attack per the pistol-in-combat rule. But the forum said no.

Because a Burna is neither a close combat weapon nor is it ever defined as being one handed, not because the forum says no.

**Cheex**

luggnuts wrote:
Xca|iber wrote:This argument has no purpose. There are no single handed ranged weapons that are not pistols (or do not exclusively count as close combat weapons).

No post Black Templars codex defines any ranged weapon as single handed, and all previous codices' single handed items are either pistols, CCWs, not weapons, or count as CCWs.

The Neural Shredder is never defined as a single handed weapon. You don't gain a bonus attack from it.

but what if for example on meganobz who have an assault weapon on one hand and a powerklaw on the other would they gain a bonus

/Facepalm.

**Eternal Newb**

luggnuts wrote:but what if for example on meganobz who have an assault weapon on one hand and a powerklaw on the other would they gain a bonus

No, because with a Power Fist (Which a Power Klaw is), you'd need two of them to gain the +1 Attack.

**MekanobSamael**

luggnuts wrote:but what if for example on meganobz who have an assault weapon on one hand and a powerklaw on the other would they gain a bonus

Ranged weapons do not confer extra attacks (except in the sense that they let you attack without being in close combat). This would be like me saying that a broadside battlesuit has extra attacks from its two weapons (railgun and smart missile system).

Melee weapons confer extra attacks.

But not with a Klaw, seeing as it counts as a Power Fist (i.e. only another power fist confers extra attacks).

**VoxDei**

MekanobSamael wrote:Ranged weapons do not confer extra attacks (except in the sense that they let you attack without being in close combat).

Unless they have special rules

**yournamehere**

How is this happening? this thread has gone so far down the drain. All the answers are in the thread including the page numbers and reference points and anyone ( especially lugnuts) still asking stupid questions that have already been answered should go read there rule book.

References for people that have o far been to lazy to look up the rules in there book
page 29 under pistols stated only pistols are also used as CCWs, no other weapon type does this, it does not matter how many hands it is or if an ork nob can hold a god damn shoota in one hand IT IS NOT A PISTOL THERE FORE IT IS NOT A CCW, get it through your head it's not hard (of course if the codex you have over rides this then w/e but ork's does not.
Don mondo's references : page 37 and 42 will be helpful to read after looking under the pistol heading on 29.

I seriously don't know how this is taking up 2 pages, well I mean the same question has been asked and answered about 5 times and counting so far.

**kight**

Also no codex states rather any weapon is one or two handed so how you are saying i can model my bolter or flamer as one handed to get a extra attack? only pistols and ccw give extra attacks. If I am wrong and there is a codex that stats which weapons need one or 2 hands for the entirety of the codex please let me know. Besides that it is RAI for which weapons are one or 2 handed.

**insaniak**

yournamehere wrote: I seriously don't know how this is taking up 2 pages, well I mean the same question has been asked and answered about 5 times and counting so far.

Part of it is people not taking the time to read what has actually been posted.

This issue always causes some disagreement though, largely because the rules are a little inconsistent. Page 42 talks about combinations of close combat weapons, and how they work, and grants the bonus attack for having two close combat weapons or pistols. It does seem to suggest that the weapon needs to be classified as either a CCW or a pistol to grant the bonus.

However, page 37 states that the bonus is granted for having two single handed weapons, which are typically (which would conversely mean 'not always') close combat weapons or pistols.

Some players read page 37 as being nothing more than an initial summary, with the rules on page 42 being how it actually works... while some take page 37 to mean that any weapon that is classed as single-handed without being classed as a CCW or pistol will still grant an attack.

It won't be an issue once the last couple of 3rd ed codexes are updated. Without breaking out the books, the Callidus Assassin is probably about the only remaining example of this actually happening on the table.

**Arctik_Firangi**

If I give my Deff Dredd two Skorchas, do they count as one-handed for the purposes of gaining extra attacks? What Strength are they? If I use them as power weapons do I get +2 attacks each instead? When my Dredd fleets due to a Waaagh!!! can it still shoot its Skorchas or do I have to use them as power weapons? Can I choose not to use them as power weapons if I don't shoot and get +3 attacks each instead?

Come on guys, I know this thread can get wackier! You can do it!

**yournamehere**

Its a skortcha...

Only burnas can be used in the assault phase...

**Kommissar Kel**

Facetious; he was being it(I hope).

You can tell the sarcasm from this line:

Come on guys, I know this thread can get wackier! You can do it!