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Look, you seem to have a bit of a chip on your shoulder. One that I certainly didn't do much to provoke. Kindly aim the agression somewhere else if agressive you must be.

By the by..."disgraced" doesn't mean what you seem to think it means. It has no place in the context you put it.

Chinchilla wrote:

But anyway, back on topic:
So we have agreed to put forces in the middle... Ok... But what then? What to do after he comes from both sides? Split or not to split?
Is his battlewagon optimised, does he need grabbin klaw and boarding plak?
What would you add in (or rearange) in 1750pts? Is one more boyz wagon good idea?

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EDIT: I have edited his list, so that you can see all the details... For better comments (yes, I know it's starting to be army section, but why posting another thread )

So, back on topic

Araenion wrote:Look, you seem to have a bit of a chip on your shoulder. One that I certainly didn't do much to provoke. Kindly aim the agression somewhere else if agressive you must be.

By the by..."disgraced" doesn't mean what you seem to think it means. It has no place in the context you put it.

I m not sure if you are in a position to correct me, especially when you can't even spell "aggressive", "aggression".

So you actually have problem with Math as well as English . Ok, don't need to tell me your age, think I ve got a pretty good idea already.

I really hope next time the MODs contact you about your attitude towards other forum members they actually give you a ban for it instead of a play nice. Seriously why all the personal attacks on people.

Also Ive noticed if ANYONE is even slightly in disagreement with how you play they are instantly attacked. Im guessing you only play either a kan list, or a BW spam list. Which IMO is rather boring as well as giving you tunnel vision on TACTICS. You cannot give good tactics advice, if your only answer to every question is BW SPAM! RAM THEM SPAM!!!! SPPPAAAAAMMM!!!!!

So yea, keep telling everyone (me included) Im mediocre (Or worse then that in the PM) at tactics. At least I have a broader view because I play more then just one build. At least Ive got the balls/enjoyment of playing with every unit in the codex, and therefore can honestly tell people how they work. You know, from personal real table usage. Not vassal. Which is NOT playing real 40k

Okay, let's just remember we're all on this hobby for fun. Now, I own to the fact I'm probably the worst offender here when it comes to being off-topic. Still, let me remind you that the question posed by the OP is:

How to bring this 1500 list up to 1750. I myself like the 4th Battlewagon option. Even if it is a pretty single-minded approach to list building(which is not bad in itself, really...Orks are seldom boring to fight).

And Ive got t agree with Araenion on dice rolls. Yes you can math hammer it all you want guys, but when it comes down to brass tacs, it isnt completely sound. 50% is just an average. Ive passed ALOT of FNP rolls before, infact sometimes WAY more then 50%. And IVe also witnessed an entire Ard boyz trukk mob get KO'd in one round of horrible rolling


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PErsonally Id bring some rokkit buggies, as the eldar can counter the BW thing to easy. TL rokkits, can hammer vehicles. Not to mention are cheap cheap cheap and can grant much needed cover

Actually, I can tell you a few reason why that list lost.

It wasn't built all to well. It could use some work and a lot more threatening units.

KingCracker wrote:And Ive got t agree with Araenion on dice rolls. Yes you can math hammer it all you want guys, but when it comes down to brass tacs, it isnt completely sound. 50% is just an average. Ive passed ALOT of FNP rolls before, infact sometimes WAY more then 50%. And IVe also witnessed an entire Ard boyz trukk mob get KO'd in one round of horrible rolling.

To be fair, anyone who ever played 40k will know that luck matters a lot more than simple statistics, so yes, I was no doubt right. But if I was in their shoes, I'd have argued the same thing. Because luck can go either way, so the only way to successfully make your point across is to stick to the average middleground.

KingCracker wrote:Personally Id bring some rokkit buggies, as the eldar can counter the BW thing to easy. TL rokkits, can hammer vehicles. Not to mention are cheap cheap cheap and can grant much needed cover

Well, as a general rule, we're trying not to tailor our lists to each other. My list is by no means tailored against his, it'd be a bit unfair if he'd tailor his to counter mine. But rokkit buggies sound interesting. My friend could try proxying them a couple times to see how they work.

If he has AOBR deffkoptas, then just take them off the flying stand. Thats basically the size (its a little smaller but close enough anyways) Im a big fan of rokkit buggies. Obviously YMMV but they have pretty much always worked well for me, and for the reasons Ive posted above.

As far as tailoring lists, if you two were perfect equals as far as generalship goes, then sure I get what your doing. But maybe your just better all around as far as running an army goes. It happens. You might want to help him out a bit by doing just that, tailor his list towards yours a little more. That should even out your games.

I used to play CSM (forever ago, they were my starting army) and I just couldnt beat my oldest brother. His SM force would just counter everything I would try. Fast forward years later, and now with my Orks we are usually a pretty good match. It came with experience and an army change, and now I can beat him/go toe to toe with him. Im not saying your friend should change armies but at least help him see things a little better?

Araenion wrote:

KingCracker wrote:And Ive got t agree with Araenion on dice rolls. Yes you can math hammer it all you want guys, but when it comes down to brass tacs, it isnt completely sound. 50% is just an average. Ive passed ALOT of FNP rolls before, infact sometimes WAY more then 50%. And IVe also witnessed an entire Ard boyz trukk mob get KO'd in one round of horrible rolling.

To be fair, anyone who ever played 40k will know that luck matters a lot more than simple statistics, so yes, I was no doubt right. But if I was in their shoes, I'd have argued the same thing. Because luck can go either way, so the only way to successfully make your point across is to stick to the average middleground.

KingCracker wrote:Personally Id bring some rokkit buggies, as the eldar can counter the BW thing to easy. TL rokkits, can hammer vehicles. Not to mention are cheap cheap cheap and can grant much needed cover

Well, as a general rule, we're trying not to tailor our lists to each other. My list is by no means tailored against his, it'd be a bit unfair if he'd tailor his to counter mine. But rokkit buggies sound interesting. My friend could try proxying them a couple times to see how they work.

The Rokkit Buggies provide a few things... cheap units, mobile cover, light armored threats, and Light AV poppers.
Being cost efficient you can get a lot done, and then have more room for the list.

Here's my 1850 http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/322380.page This list went 3-0 and 2-0-1(draw)

The_Savior wrote:Actually, I can tell you a few reason why that list lost.

It wasn't built all to well. It could use some work and a lot more threatening units.

I don't think it can be tailored any way differently actually... At 1500pts you have lots of things you have to find the room...

As for koptas, they're my favorite unit... And you can't say that buggy is better than kopta... They are both great, and both can be used for same purpose... It's one of the ymmv things... If you take buggies, you have to take lot more than koptas, and thus you get to same thing... And 1st turn assault is my favorite tactic

As for tweeking list against eldar, that is exactly what we're trying to avoid... All our lists are all-comers... So all tweeks are heading in that direction... Once you start making anti-lists, it's not fun... So tactics how to make it better will do... I'm certain that wagon rush can fight against eldars...

Chinchilla wrote:

The_Savior wrote:Actually, I can tell you a few reason why that list lost.

It wasn't built all to well. It could use some work and a lot more threatening units.

I don't think it can be tailored any way differently actually... At 1500pts you have lots of things you have to find the room...

As for koptas, they're my favorite unit... And you can't say that buggy is better than kopta... They are both great, and both can be used for same purpose... It's one of the ymmv things... If you take buggies, you have to take lot more than koptas, and thus you get to same thing... And 1st turn assault is my favorite tactic

As for tweeking list against eldar, that is exactly what we're trying to avoid... All our lists are all-comers... So all tweeks are heading in that direction... Once you start making anti-lists, it's not fun... So tactics how to make it better will do... I'm certain that wagon rush can fight against eldars...

I'm not saying it's bad, just the setup I can think of would be a little more threatening. But this more of a "to each their own" and I won't tell you how to play your army. So go go koptas

Chinchilla wrote:

The_Savior wrote:Actually, I can tell you a few reason why that list lost.

It wasn't built all to well. It could use some work and a lot more threatening units.

I don't think it can be tailored any way differently actually... At 1500pts you have lots of things you have to find the room...

As for koptas, they're my favorite unit... And you can't say that buggy is better than kopta... They are both great, and both can be used for same purpose... It's one of the ymmv things... If you take buggies, you have to take lot more than koptas, and thus you get to same thing... And 1st turn assault is my favorite tactic

As for tweeking list against eldar, that is exactly what we're trying to avoid... All our lists are all-comers... So all tweeks are heading in that direction... Once you start making anti-lists, it's not fun... So tactics how to make it better will do... I'm certain that wagon rush can fight against eldars...

Well see thats the problem then. Because what your looking for starts falling into that whole, knowing how to be fluid in a game. Sure we can say things like, use terrain, use this unit to fight that unit and so on. But thats about it, what your talking about comes with experience, and sometimes people just dont pick up on it. Sorry man, but if you 2 arnt willing to at least somewhat tool his army to counter at least parts of yours, then unless you start throwing games your just going to keep winning.

Like I said earlier, my brother will kick my ass if I use any type of SM army, but I use Orks, I get Orks, I understand Orks, I can beat him pretty badly at times.

KingCracker wrote:

Chinchilla wrote:

The_Savior wrote:Actually, I can tell you a few reason why that list lost.

It wasn't built all to well. It could use some work and a lot more threatening units.

I don't think it can be tailored any way differently actually... At 1500pts you have lots of things you have to find the room...

As for koptas, they're my favorite unit... And you can't say that buggy is better than kopta... They are both great, and both can be used for same purpose... It's one of the ymmv things... If you take buggies, you have to take lot more than koptas, and thus you get to same thing... And 1st turn assault is my favorite tactic

As for tweeking list against eldar, that is exactly what we're trying to avoid... All our lists are all-comers... So all tweeks are heading in that direction... Once you start making anti-lists, it's not fun... So tactics how to make it better will do... I'm certain that wagon rush can fight against eldars...

Well see thats the problem then. Because what your looking for starts falling into that whole, knowing how to be fluid in a game. Sure we can say things like, use terrain, use this unit to fight that unit and so on. But thats about it, what your talking about comes with experience, and sometimes people just dont pick up on it. Sorry man, but if you 2 arnt willing to at least somewhat tool his army to counter at least parts of yours, then unless you start throwing games your just going to keep winning.

Like I said earlier, my brother will kick my ass if I use any type of SM army, but I use Orks, I get Orks, I understand Orks, I can beat him pretty badly at times.

To each their own, to each their own.

KingCracker wrote:Well see thats the problem then. Because what your looking for starts falling into that whole, knowing how to be fluid in a game. Sure we can say things like, use terrain, use this unit to fight that unit and so on. But thats about it, what your talking about comes with experience, and sometimes people just dont pick up on it. Sorry man, but if you 2 arnt willing to at least somewhat tool his army to counter at least parts of yours, then unless you start throwing games your just going to keep winning.

I'll second Chinch here. I am no better general than my friend is. Against Chinch's SM, we are both on equal grounds. It's only against me that he really struggles. And I think it's because Orks' single-mindedness is a bad counter to the Eldar's "on the fly" tactics. Ironically, while we were all on foot, my army was much less forgiving than his, I couldn't afford a single mistake on my part. Now it looks like the tables turned and I'm always one step ahead of him, because I can adapt on the fly due to my mobility, while he needs to set his mind on something to get it done. If that fails, he lost a round. He needs to become a better tactician than I am, to be able to predict my moves better than I can predict his.

It's like a game of chess where one player starts without a Queen. You need to be very good if you want to counter that advantage. And that's really the purpose of the thread, asking for some insight of the more experienced players out there. It'd be easy to simply change the list to counter mine, but his generalship would be no better for it.

Yes, I'm not looking for advice like use terrain... We all know that (frankly, not much terrain you can use with kff, since it's nearly impossible to stay out of los from someone who can move 12'' and fire, and you already have 4+ cover)...

What I'm asking is concrete advice... I'm asking what would you (as experienced player) do in that situation... Simple... Split or not to split...

Well usually Id say if its a split or not split situation, I wouldnt split. Orks need to focus on one main thing to be really potent. You know go ALL shooty or ALL CC and the like. I also think its that way in playing with them. If your whole force comes down on half his army, you shouldnt lose about half yours to beat them. In one turn or so you should of crushed his half army with little casualties. Then youve just got to get your boyz down to the other side of the table.

The thing with Orks, is they are VERY fragile when going piecemeal, they are not like space marines where their saves can usually save them. Orks get shot, and they die its pretty much that simple. Id try and go full tilt into one of his flanks, or if he splits, go for one of the splits, with everything. I can tell ya, when I play a trukk mob (yes trukks are NOT garbage when used correctly) I smash all of them into one spot of my opponents flank. Yes 1 trukk mob isnt THAT scary, but when theres 4 or 5 of them crashing into one spot, they do serious damage. Ive crushed an entire flank in one turn of assault on one turn, a few times.

If you can position your Ork force to do maximum damage youll be doing much better. Never try and split them up or think one mob can handle it. If one mob can handle it, then 2 will be over kill, and thats what you want to do. The only thing in our army that can take on most things alone is Thraka on a WAAAGH! and since you cant take an armies worth of Thrakas, you need to hammer what ever your attacking with hard.

KingCracker wrote:Well usually Id say if its a split or not split situation, I wouldnt split. Orks need to focus on one main thing to be really potent. You know go ALL shooty or ALL CC and the like. I also think its that way in playing with them. If your whole force comes down on half his army, you shouldnt lose about half yours to beat them. In one turn or so you should of crushed his half army with little casualties. Then youve just got to get your boyz down to the other side of the table.

The thing with Orks, is they are VERY fragile when going piecemeal, they are not like space marines where their saves can usually save them. Orks get shot, and they die its pretty much that simple. Id try and go full tilt into one of his flanks, or if he splits, go for one of the splits, with everything. I can tell ya, when I play a trukk mob (yes trukks are NOT garbage when used correctly) I smash all of them into one spot of my opponents flank. Yes 1 trukk mob isnt THAT scary, but when theres 4 or 5 of them crashing into one spot, they do serious damage. Ive crushed an entire flank in one turn of assault on one turn, a few times.

If you can position your Ork force to do maximum damage youll be doing much better. Never try and split them up or think one mob can handle it. If one mob can handle it, then 2 will be over kill, and thats what you want to do. The only thing in our army that can take on most things alone is Thraka on a WAAAGH! and since you cant take an armies worth of Thrakas, you need to hammer what ever your attacking with hard.

The best thing to do in a situation like that, is think where do you want to go an why, is it safe, will you win, what can they do after, all of those come into mind when making the next move, also remember use the wagons to your advantage. I've roadblocked people before to avoid shots, I've even trapped them in a square( |_| ) of wagons and assaulted. You have many tools at hand, practice for fun, with different tactics, see what works and why.

Well then again that comes with experience. We cant tell someone Oh hey do this and do that, when we cant see the actual game and how its being played out. Sure its something good to keep in mind, using vehicles to block off paths and LOS and whatnot, but again, my point still stands

I understand that... We practice los blocking a lot (especially with sm and rhino/tacs)...
I understand what you mean, and I agree... But again, it is still a bit different question here...
Let me make picture in vassal(when I find more time) and i'll post it so that you can see...
But for now, picture this:
you won roll an go first(spearhead).... Deploy down... Opponen puts everything in reserves...
Your first and second round, you move wagons to the center of the table, so that you're cca 12'' from opponent long table edge....
Turn 2 enemy, moves part of the force from left part of the long table edge (cca 30'' from you) and same thing from right part... So now you have 3 wagons on the middle of table, and opponent had some force on one side (30'' away) and some part on other side (cca 30'' away), all with tools to fire at battlewagon and with ok chance to take it out...
So, what will you do in that situation? Will you send all forces towards one part of his army, or will you split to get to both sides?
Imo, it's lose/lose situation:
1. If you split forces, next turn of reinforcments will be allocated as he needs to take out your squads...
2. If you decide to go after only one part, next turn his reinforcments will arrive to opposite side... Bear in mind that you have 3-5 rounds, which means that there is no way to get your forces to both side, not to mention that opponent has 48'' and 72'' range, which means he can shoot at you every turn...

This is my dilemma... Is there a third way? I don't see it...
So it has nothing to do with skill and experience (you know what I mean, ofc it does), rather it is a tactical decision... So, what would you do?



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Just a little detail... It was 2 objective game, with one objective (ork one) as close as possible to the center, and eldar one as far away as possible in his table quarter... He had one scoring unit on each side, so it bears no difference to making decision where to go... It is quite easy to get draw in that situation, but that's just it... You don't play to get draw, do you?
That is a tactical mission in later games if it doesn't look good...

Chinchilla wrote:I understand that... We practice los blocking a lot (especially with sm and rhino/tacs)...
I understand what you mean, and I agree... But again, it is still a bit different question here...
Let me make picture in vassal(when I find more time) and i'll post it so that you can see...
But for now, picture this:
you won roll an go first(spearhead).... Deploy down... Opponen puts everything in reserves...
Your first and second round, you move wagons to the center of the table, so that you're cca 12'' from opponent long table edge....
Turn 2 enemy, moves part of the force from left part of the long table edge (cca 30'' from you) and same thing from right part... So now you have 3 wagons on the middle of table, and opponent had some force on one side (30'' away) and some part on other side (cca 30'' away), all with tools to fire at battlewagon and with ok chance to take it out...
So, what will you do in that situation? Will you send all forces towards one part of his army, or will you split to get to both sides?
Imo, it's lose/lose situation:
1. If you split forces, next turn of reinforcments will be allocated as he needs to take out your squads...
2. If you decide to go after only one part, next turn his reinforcments will arrive to opposite side... Bear in mind that you have 3-5 rounds, which means that there is no way to get your forces to both side, not to mention that opponent has 48'' and 72'' range, which means he can shoot at you every turn...

This is my dilemma... Is there a third way? I don't see it...
So it has nothing to do with skill and experience (you know what I mean, ofc it does), rather it is a tactical decision... So, what would you do?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just a little detail... It was 2 objective game, with one objective (ork one) as close as possible to the center, and eldar one as far away as possible in his table quarter... He had one scoring unit on each side, so it bears no difference to making decision where to go... It is quite easy to get draw in that situation, but that's just it... You don't play to get draw, do you?
That is a tactical mission in later games if it doesn't look good...

There's a battle report form Dash, talking about how he loves the Spearhead deployment.

Because then angle you come in at, can really be a devastating rush down.

I hate playing vs orks spearhead... It makes you pile in one spot and you lose tactical advantage against orks... But you deployment doesn't matter if he goes in reserves... You have 2 rounds to move and redeploy... He can enter anywhere from his table edge...

Actually, I'm locking it. Please start another thread if you would like to continue discussing this.