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shrike wrote:Use what? the drop pod?

No, the Null Zone power.

A drop pod can take a locator beacon. You can then select a drop pod for a unit that doesn't really need it (Devastators, or assault type unit you plan on putting in a Land Raider). You then drop the pod empty. You can also use the empty pod to adjust how/when pods that actually have stuff show up. Either by saving empty pods to drop all of your full pods on turn one, or by dropping the empty pod on turn one to delay the arrive of pods w/ stuff in the (to counter the opponent reserving his entire list to stop a drop pod assault.

Oh, nice! Just saw the option! Wow! That means I know need to get:
Razor saw
superglue
Chaos black spray
Drop pod
Assault squad
5x Jump packs

Yes, the Drop Pod tactic is pretty sound. What I like doing is putting my Librarian as close to the center point of the table as possible, and attaching a unit to him by Conga-lining said unit back into my deployment zone, hiding the majority of them behind cover. That way, if I know I'm going second, the unit is protected by some kind of cover. Then when my first turn comes, the Drop Pod comes down about halfway across the board, hopefully not scattering anywhere too far, which usually doesn't happen because of "Inertial Guidance", and now I have a Beacon halfway across the field to Gate to.

My favorite combination is attaching a Librarian to a unit of Sternguard Vet's, and Lysander. Lysander isn't necessary, but he adds a lot of support with the initial shooting phase. And once the unit gets assaulted (because 99% of the time they will be), Lysander is one of the best beatsticks you can bring to a fight.

That's lucky! I have lysander and some sternguard too!
I'm getting the jump libby and termie libby at X'mas, and my biker libby hopefully this week

Yeah, um, SM psykers get to choose powers, orks do not. You are confused. (I love Zogwort though):
"Ha! I have marneus calgar, the greatedest SM evah!"
"Yeah, about that... POW! squig!"

Empty drop pod??? why don't you put the squad in it???
(it should't be difficult to let the squad disembrak in cover in the average table)

I use this tactic too ( double termies... oooooh yeah)

Anyway if you play a list with a lot of deepstrikers i thin tigurius repays his point
(I put him with the squad in the drop pod to grant them the force dome if the squad isn't able to take cover and give additional firepower
Then I teleport 2 termies combat squad to face the bigger problems)
The ability to reroll reserves is quite useful

That tactic doesn't really work well with the droppod+homer imho.

I always ask what is on the vehicles before the game, so if the enemy drops it next to me, I kill it before he can take advantage of it.

punkow wrote:Empty drop pod??? why don't you put the squad in it???
(it should't be difficult to let the squad disembrak in cover in the average table)

Reason why I have them empty is because I can't fit the entire unit I have in a single Drop Pod.
10 Sternguard Vets + Lysander + Librarian = 13 spaces necessary. Drop Pods only hold 12. That's why. Otherwise, I would consider putting them in the Drop Pod, but because I don't usually like risking any chance of mishap, if anything bad happens, at most I'll lose just the Drop Pod.

punkow wrote:Anyway if you play a list with a lot of deepstrikers i thin tigurius repays his point... The ability to reroll reserves is quite useful

Agreed. In a list that relies more on Reserves, having Tigurius helps a lot.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

grayspark wrote:That tactic doesn't really work well with the droppod+homer imho.

I always ask what is on the vehicles before the game, so if the enemy drops it next to me, I kill it before he can take advantage of it.

In my list, I only need this to work once. Once I've made it across the field with my Librarian, I'm pretty sure my opponent would be more concerned with the unit that the Librarian just brought over, instead of the Drop Pod. But hey, if he'd rather shoot at the Drop Pod instead of my Elites, I've no problem with that.

punkow wrote:Empty drop pod??? why don't you put the squad in it???
(it should't be difficult to let the squad disembrak in cover in the average table)
The ability to reroll reserves is quite useful

The idea is that you use either a squad that doesn't need transport (like devastators), or a squad that will be using a better transport option (assault marines destined to ride inside a LR). Another reason to send an empty pod is because you may want the pod on the enemy board edge but you don't want your tac squad sitting on the enemy board edge waiting to get assaulted from reserves. The whole point of the drop pod after all is to be able to shoot the enemy first.

Thaylen wrote:IMHO the best powers to use are null zone and avenger. The trick is you ride the libby w/ a squad of hammernators in a land raider. Hammernators get out to assault deathstar unit, Librarian stays in the LR to drop nullzone and you get to watch enemy termies drop like flies.

You can't do that without house rules, an IC can't leave a unit while he's in a transport, and if he could he'd block your terminators from coming back into the land raider after they win since you can only put 1 unit in a transport unless you're in apocalypse.

BearersOfSalvation wrote:

Thaylen wrote:IMHO the best powers to use are null zone and avenger. The trick is you ride the libby w/ a squad of hammernators in a land raider. Hammernators get out to assault deathstar unit, Librarian stays in the LR to drop nullzone and you get to watch enemy termies drop like flies.

You can't do that without house rules, an IC can't leave a unit while he's in a transport, and if he could he'd block your terminators from coming back into the land raider after they win since you can only put 1 unit in a transport unless you're in apocalypse.

I don't have the BRB to reference this, but I'm pretty sure the maneuver he's talking about is allowed. IC's attach and detach from units during the Movement phase. If he's attached to a unit of Terminators while inside the Land Raider, what's stopping the Terminators from detaching themselves from the Librarian while coming out of it? For all intents and purposes, the Librarian would just be his own unit, while still inside the Land Raider. And on any subsequent turn after that, why wouldn't they be able to re-enter the Land Raider and reattach themselves to the Librarian?

Also, on your note about Apocalypse games, I'm pretty sure that just because a game happens to be an Apocalypse game, army lists still have to follow the same rules for Dedicated Transports. (ie - You wouldn't be able to fit, say, a Command Squad and a Tactical Squad in a Land Raider Crusader.) IC's work differently, and because you're allowed an unlimited amount of HQ choices in Apocalypse games, they're allowed to be attached to as many other IC's as you'd like, but only are allowed to attach to one unit of Troops/Infantry.

Rurouni Benshin wrote:I don't have the BRB to reference this, but I'm pretty sure the maneuver he's talking about is allowed. IC's attach and detach from units during the Movement phase.

ICs detach by moving away from the rest of the unit. At the start of the round, the single unit of terminators+librarian is in the land raider, you either disembark the unit or don't, and once you disembark no one can reembark that movement phase. You can get out and have the librarian seperate from the squad (IIRC), but you're then stuck with the librarian exposed on his own, not safely inside the land raider.

If he's attached to a unit of Terminators while inside the Land Raider, what's stopping the Terminators from detaching themselves from the Librarian while coming out of it?

Like you said before (and the rules do too), ICs attach and detach from units, not the other way around.

For all intents and purposes, the Librarian would just be his own unit, while still inside the Land Raider. And on any subsequent turn after that, why wouldn't they be able to re-enter the Land Raider and reattach themselves to the Librarian?

The librarian is his own unit when not attached to a squad. Only one unit can be in a transport in normal 40k. If there is already a unit in a transport, you can't embark, the other unit has to exit first. And again the squad can't attach to the character, the IC is the one that moves to join or leave a unit, not the other way around.

If you have a hero leading a squad in a transport, he has to keep leading them, he doesn't get to send the troops out to do the dirty work while cowering behind the access door. This isn't just a case of an unexpected result because of game mechanics, I'm pretty sure GW intends that the IC leading a squad leads from the front, not from inside a tank.

Also, on your note about Apocalypse games, I'm pretty sure that just because a game happens to be an Apocalypse game, army lists still have to follow the same rules for Dedicated Transports. (ie - You wouldn't be able to fit, say, a Command Squad and a Tactical Squad in a Land Raider Crusader.)

Apocalypse allows multiple units to ride in a transport, the point of apocalypse is that it changes a number of standard rules. This has nothing to do with the rules for dedicated transports, which only affect building the list and initial deployment - any unit can go into any transport during the game regardless of whether it's dedicated or not.

BearersOfSalvation wrote:Apocalypse allows multiple units to ride in a transport, the point of apocalypse is that it changes a number of standard rules. This has nothing to do with the rules for dedicated transports, which only affect building the list and initial deployment - any unit can go into any transport during the game regardless of whether it's dedicated or not.

Well this certainly changes a few things... Now all of a sudden, my Land Raiders have few more uses...

BearersOfSalvation wrote:

Rurouni Benshin wrote:I don't have the BRB to reference this, but I'm pretty sure the maneuver he's talking about is allowed. IC's attach and detach from units during the Movement phase.

ICs detach by moving away from the rest of the unit. At the start of the round, the single unit of terminators+librarian is in the land raider, you either disembark the unit or don't, and once you disembark no one can reembark that movement phase. You can get out and have the librarian seperate from the squad (IIRC), but you're then stuck with the librarian exposed on his own, not safely inside the land raider.

If he's attached to a unit of Terminators while inside the Land Raider, what's stopping the Terminators from detaching themselves from the Librarian while coming out of it?

Like you said before (and the rules do too), ICs attach and detach from units, not the other way around.

For all intents and purposes, the Librarian would just be his own unit, while still inside the Land Raider. And on any subsequent turn after that, why wouldn't they be able to re-enter the Land Raider and reattach themselves to the Librarian?

The librarian is his own unit when not attached to a squad. Only one unit can be in a transport in normal 40k. If there is already a unit in a transport, you can't embark, the other unit has to exit first. And again the squad can't attach to the character, the IC is the one that moves to join or leave a unit, not the other way around.

If you have a hero leading a squad in a transport, he has to keep leading them, he doesn't get to send the troops out to do the dirty work while cowering behind the access door. This isn't just a case of an unexpected result because of game mechanics, I'm pretty sure GW intends that the IC leading a squad leads from the front, not from inside a tank.

Also, on your note about Apocalypse games, I'm pretty sure that just because a game happens to be an Apocalypse game, army lists still have to follow the same rules for Dedicated Transports. (ie - You wouldn't be able to fit, say, a Command Squad and a Tactical Squad in a Land Raider Crusader.)

Apocalypse allows multiple units to ride in a transport, the point of apocalypse is that it changes a number of standard rules. This has nothing to do with the rules for dedicated transports, which only affect building the list and initial deployment - any unit can go into any transport during the game regardless of whether it's dedicated or not.

You need to re-read the rules regarding joining and leaving squads. It is very much allowed to keep the Libby in the LR when the Hammernators disembark aswell as joining an IC to a unit already embarked in a transport. (pg67)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
OnT. The libby does not need to be more survivable. They are not ment to be click and win units.

Jubear wrote:
Yeah, um, SM psykers get to choose powers, orks do not. You are confused. (I love Zogwort though):
"Ha! I have marneus calgar, the greatedest SM evah!"
"Yeah, about that... POW! squig!"

um read my post again =)

On the Topic: Libbys are not sledgehammers, They are meant to be wielded w/ precision. Librarians just aren't close combat monsters. The trick is to use them to support other units and protect the army from enemy psykers. On very rare occasions they can sledgehammer other units (Ie. not combat specialist MEQ squad w/o a fist- Avenger, then charge). But this is not the norm.

Really? I always use my Librarians as Sledgehammers.

Using the Avenger and Quickening he works pretty well, doesn't change the fact that they need support units though...

grayspark wrote:Really? I always use my Librarians as Sledgehammers.

Using the Avenger and Quickening he works pretty well, doesn't change the fact that they need support units though...

I don't think he's saying they're not effective as Sledgehammers, but can be at times depending on what army you're playing against, combined with which powers you take. The point, is that the Librarian's primary function in a list is best as a support unit. There are far better units that can "Sledgehammer" things in the C:SM. In my opinion, if I can avoid having a Librarian do it, all the better.

tedurur wrote:You need to re-read the rules regarding joining and leaving squads. It is very much allowed to keep the Libby in the LR when the Hammernators disembark aswell as joining an IC to a unit already embarked in a transport. (pg67)

Haha, nice. I had gotten in a discussion about that with someone during a game and neither of us found p67, looks like I've been playing characters in transports completely wrong.

Thaylen wrote:Libbys are not sledgehammers, They are meant to be wielded w/ precision... use them to support other units. on very rare occasions they can sledgehammer other units

grayspark wrote:Really? I always use my Librarians as Sledgehammers.
they need support units though...

That's probably why you're b****ing about them- they are NOT sledgehammers.
They don't need support- they ARE they are the support.

shrike wrote:

Thaylen wrote:Libbys are not sledgehammers, They are meant to be wielded w/ precision... use them to support other units. on very rare occasions they can sledgehammer other units

grayspark wrote:Really? I always use my Librarians as Sledgehammers.
they need support units though...

That's probably why you're b****ing about them- they are NOT sledgehammers.
They don't need support- they ARE they are the support.

Maybe I'm just able to get the best out of them?

If you use the liberian skillfilly he will take out alot of stuff and stay alive for longer

grayspark wrote:

shrike wrote:

Thaylen wrote:Libbys are not sledgehammers, They are meant to be wielded w/ precision... use them to support other units. on very rare occasions they can sledgehammer other units

grayspark wrote:Really? I always use my Librarians as Sledgehammers.
they need support units though...

That's probably why you're b****ing about them- they are NOT sledgehammers.
They don't need support- they ARE they are the support.

Maybe I'm just able to get the best out of them?

Apart from the fact that you were whining about them failing earlier...

shrike wrote:

grayspark wrote:

shrike wrote:

Thaylen wrote:Libbys are not sledgehammers, They are meant to be wielded w/ precision... use them to support other units. on very rare occasions they can sledgehammer other units

grayspark wrote:Really? I always use my Librarians as Sledgehammers.
they need support units though...

That's probably why you're b****ing about them- they are NOT sledgehammers.
They don't need support- they ARE they are the support.

Maybe I'm just able to get the best out of them?

Apart from the fact that you were whining about them failing earlier...

Just because I can get them to work doesn't mean they're a poor choice for an army.

Dude- You said ealier "without a SS and terminator armour, they're pointless."
You said it was a poor choice for an army, and that you could choose a captain and do a lot better.

My friend does marines and I advise him on tactics because he's not very good at them and marines are hard to use against my mass of pre heresy thousand sons. I would not use Tigurius, instead use an Epistolary with plasma pistol(for shooting), gate of infinity and force dome. This way he can protect himself and a tactical squad whilst getting them to an objective quickly.

MekanobSamael wrote:The long answer is that zoanthropes have been developed by the hive to do nothing other than be super-psykers.

For that matter, Librarians aren't even necessarily more powerful than human psykers, nevermind Zoanthropes.

Yeah, but SM are better than humans "In every way" (yeah right) so they should really be better psykers

shrike wrote:Dude- You said ealier "without a SS and terminator armour, they're pointless."
You said it was a poor choice for an army, and that you could choose a captain and do a lot better.

Yeah, because that's the truth.