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Okay so I wass thinking about buying Tigirius last week , and was looking at his rules thinking wow- 4 psychic powers a turn?! until I noticed something about him and all the other librarians- No invulnerable . Tigirius can easily be killed by one hit from a PF . that's 230 points down the drain for a 25 point upgrade. And I thought- If the librarians can harness the power of the warp to create physical things, Weapons and protective shields, Why, even if they have no iron halo, can they not project forth a phychic barrier, similar to what a zoanthrope does, giving them a 4+ save?

Force dome psykic power gives a 5+ invuln. That seems to be what you are talking about.

The short answer is because their terrifying effectiveness means they have to have a weak-point.

The long answer is that zoanthropes have been developed by the hive to do nothing other than be super-psykers.

Space Marine Librarians have to use swords, wear armor, coordinate forces, talk, walk, and doo all sorts of thiengs Zoeys don't.

If your libby's too easy to kill, burn the extra 40 points for termi armor and storm shield.

MekanobSamael wrote:If your libby's too easy to kill, burn the extra 40 points for termi armor and storm shield.

Why spend 55 points on terminator armour and a storm shield, when you can spend 30 points on artificer armour and a storm shield?

Because your point values are wrong (its 40 points for the Terminator armor and storm shield for the librarian), and artificer armor is not an option for Librarians? There is also relentless to consider.

Librarians can't take artificer armor then a SS if I'm not mistaken. They can only get SS with termie armor.

Ninja'd!

Zoey's get a better save because they have a brand new shiny codex. You do not.

Just use the Special character Red Scorpions Librarian (Sevrin Loth) from IA 9, he can get a 2+ invulnerable every turn (with a psychic test)

Jack

You can also attach the libby to another unit, giving him up to 10 team-mates ablative wounds. Can't do that with Zoanthropes.


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LordWaffles wrote:Zoey's get a better save because they have a brand new shiny codex. You do not.

Or maybe Zoeys get a better save because they have the only efficient ranged anti-tank firepower in the Codex and therefore need all the protection that they can get.

Valkyrie wrote:
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LordWaffles wrote:Zoey's get a better save because they have a brand new shiny codex. You do not.

Or maybe Zoeys get a better save because they have the only efficient ranged anti-tank firepower in the Codex and therefore need all the protection that they can get.

You say that as if hive guard don't exist. Unless you mean a creature designed solely to blow up av14, which isn't competitive anymore.

They get the new save because 3+ invul is like candy in a codex, and the floating brain bugs fetch a good price for the amount of radioactive tin GW shoves into the molds.

OT much?
...

Unless I'm playing larger games upwards of 3000 points or so, I tend not to play Tigurius, due to how expensive he is.

A regular Librarian in Terminator Armor with a Storm Shield will suffice just as well. Very rarely will you need more than 2 powers to make a list work well. Tigurius, as versatile and as fun as he is to play with, is bit over the top in points in smaller games.

A Librarian in Terminator Armor with a SS would allow you to ignore taking Force Dome, and being Relentless, would allow you to chance at taking Vortex of Doom. Combined with a 3+ Invul Save, your chances of surviving are pretty good.

Btw, Tigurius can only use 3 powers in a single turn, not 4. FYI.

good idea! I might try that...

Librarians are rather useless without Terminators+SS...

It's a shame, really, because that makes them cost somewhere around 180 points with Epistolary to even make them worth taking.

Instead of taking that, you could've taken more Terminators or a Captain that may actually hurt something.

grayspark wrote:Librarians are rather useless without Terminators+SS...

It's a shame, really, because that makes them cost somewhere around 180 points with Epistolary to even make them worth taking.

Instead of taking that, you could've taken more Terminators or a Captain that may actually hurt something.

Yeah, but think what an assault 4, AP1 psychic power and a S10 AP1 3" blast might do- fry a termies squad, send a captain into the warp... then it's quite worth the points. It depends how you use it.

Yeah, I've tried that strategy before. Using the shooting psychic powers.

It really isn't that fantastic.

It sounds great, but isn't.

I'd much rather spend the points on a Souped-up Captain or a Special Character, afterall, those WORK.

How about this: Use a teleport homer/locator beacon, deepstrike, Use null zone on nearby terminator squad, Then hit them with Smite. No armour- AP2. No invulnerables- null zone. Bye bye termies. Any that survive- force weapon in the face. still no invuls. Makes up for points cost.

Null Zone doesn't get rid of invulnerables....

For a teleport homer to be that close to a terminator squad would also have to be amazing...

Deepstriking without a teleportation homer is just downright dangerous and would get you in a situation that you probably couldn't control.

The only "safe" way to use a Librarian would be to walk them to the enemy or use a Land Raider to get close enough to use the shooty psychic powers.

Here's another thing to consider, the Force Weapon is rather useless, even with using CC psychic abilitys for the vanilla codex.

The only time a Force Weapon is useful is with the Blood Angels.

There are a lot of armies with expensive units who lack invul saves. Maybe don't let him be instakilled by a powerfist. You pay lots of points for having lots of powers, not having an unkillable monster that can do anything and get away with it. Maybe if he cost a lot more. Take the awesome with the not-as-awesome don't complain because you are only better at most things. Oh yeah, put him in terminator armor for your invul. Want a fluff excuse? Their minds are busy doing their other FOUR powers and not worrying about mastering the matrix so much as to dodge nukes.

I have a better idea... why can't they just have a 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/10/2+ statline while we're at it and use a psyker power every time the opponent rols a die to hit them.

The topic has kind of moved on from the Librarian's Stats...

But he does have a point...

lol space marine playing whinging about libbys is funny as hell for me since I play Orks atleast you get to choose your powers and have the option to shut down enemy psykers.

You also get 4 of them. Ahriman and Eldrad get 3, despite thousands of years spent being the ultimate psykers in the galaxy. Doesn't matter, next thing someone will be complaining that Njal can't cast as many too. WHY ISN'T HE JUST BETTER THAN EVERYTHING??? I PAID AS MUCH AS THEY DID!

grayspark wrote:Librarians are rather useless without Terminators+SS...

It's a shame, really, because that makes them cost somewhere around 180 points with Epistolary to even make them worth taking.

Instead of taking that, you could've taken more Terminators or a Captain that may actually hurt something.

Librarian's in Terminator Armor with SS and an Epistolary costs 190 points. FYI.

To add on Librarians, they add a lot more to a list when used synergistically with other units. The point is, you need to build the list around the HQ so that it works well in tandem with it.

IMHO, Captains are probably the least useful HQ choice. Unless taken on a Bike to have Bike Squad Troop choices, they don't add much at all. Librarians add a lot more different elements to a list. As for how to equip them though, I would agree that Terminator Armor and a SS would at the very least be necessary. Epistolaries help, but aren't necessary. I wouldn't recommend Deep Striking him either. Land Raider, aside from Gate of Infinity, are the best ways of transporting them around. I usually combo that power with Locator Beacons on Drop Pods. Give that a try, and see how you it works for you.

shrike wrote:Why spend 55 points on terminator armour and a storm shield, when you can spend 30 points on artificer armour and a storm shield?

Because that would be cheating.

I agree TDA + Storm Shield is the way to go w/ a Libby.

IMHO the best powers to use are null zone and avenger. The trick is you ride the libby w/ a squad of hammernators in a land raider. Hammernators get out to assault deathstar unit, Librarian stays in the LR to drop nullzone and you get to watch enemy termies drop like flies. Alternatively if you run into a high powerweapon count power armor squad, you can have the libby get out and use avenger to kill 4-5 meq. You will usually only be doing one or the other. So Epistolary is only needed if you have 50pts and don't want to add another unit to your army.

A librarian by himself is nearly useless. A librarian is a force multiplier and the only form of psychic defense available to the space marines.

grayspark wrote:Null Zone doesn't get rid of invulnerables....

FYI- it does.

grayspark wrote:For a teleport homer to be that close to a terminator squad would also have to be amazing...

A feat I have managed in every game I have played.

grayspark wrote:Deepstriking without a teleportation homer is just downright dangerous and would get you in a situation that you probably couldn't control.

Not particularly. Only if you were unlucky. When it comes to deep striking, I rarely am.

grayspark wrote:The only "safe" way to use a Librarian would be to walk them to the enemy or use a Land Raider to get close enough to use the shooty psychic powers.

Or to teleport homer him.

grayspark wrote:Here's another thing to consider, the Force Weapon is rather useless, even with using CC psychic abilitys for the vanilla codex.

A power weapon with bonuses for free? Useless? You fail to convince me.

grayspark wrote:The only time a Force Weapon is useful is with the Blood Angels.

How about GK?

Jubear wrote:lol space marine playing whinging about libbys is funny as hell for me since I play Orks atleast you get to choose your powers and have the option to shut down enemy psykers.

Yeah, um, SM psykers get to choose powers, orks do not. You are confused. (I love Zogwort though):
"Ha! I have marneus calgar, the greatedest SM evah!"
"Yeah, about that... POW! squig!"

shrike wrote:

grayspark wrote:Null Zone doesn't get rid of invulnerables....

FYI- it does.

Actually, no, it doesn't. Null Zone only forces your opponent to reroll successful Invul Saves he's made on a unit in range. While it does work to your advantage, it doesn't actually take the Invul Save completely away.

I agree with much of what you've mentioned though. It really isn't that difficult to get a Teleport Homer/Locator Beacon across the field by second turn. My favorite way is actually the empty Drop Pod. People blank out for a few seconds as to why it's empty, but then realize it's uses when you teleport right next to it.

Sorry- had another look in the codex- he was right.

What would the uses be? Sorry, I iz confuseded.

The trick is you use it to ensure casualties on hard to remove units. Making a 3+ save isn't very hard. Doing it twice on the other hand will lead to a few casualties. And if the invuln save is worse (I'm looking at you demons) Then you aren't far off from removing it entirely.

Use what? the drop pod?