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ElCheezus:

Ordnance weapons roll two dice (2D6) for penetration and pick the highest one (^1). Therefore large blast can still penetrate AV10 and glance AV11 even when the hole does not cover the vehicle.

Ah, (^1) isn't something I'd seen before.

ElCheezus wrote:Comparing points like that is pointless. First off, there are six turns, so why expect a unit to make all of its points back in one shot? Second, it could be just as easily shooting at other guard artillery. 140 points Medusa takes down 160 in Manticore. So suddenly the gun is better? You shoot at what targets the enemy presents, so shooting at strawmen isn't exactly productive.

Against transports, they're going to be in your face round about turn 2, at which point they've disgorged their cargo and it's too late. Furthermore, you can usually easily take them apart with meltaguns for much cheaper. As such, you really do have like 1 or 2 turns where you gain a distinct advantage with long-range anti-transport (and it very well could be smoked...)

And yeah, if there's a better target then it would naturally be better to take it. My point is that saying that medusas are also effective against transports is like saying that lascannons are effective against light infantry. An accurate statement, but it is only a half-truth as far as list-building is concerned.

Plus, you've really got to compare it to a manticore to get a good idea of what to do. The manticore costs 20 more, but has the same strength. It's missing AP1, and the +D6 to pen, but it gains the ability to hit side armor, and has multiple shots, and can hit targets it can't see (among other nice things). Pretty much the one place where the medusa is worth it compared to the manticore is against things which are AV14/14... so pretty much land raiders.

I continue to find your low valuation of anti-transport confusing. I won't get into it, other than to say to those reading this thread that slowing an enemy transport is a very good thing, especially if you also have template weapons. It forces the enemy to either slow down, (and give you more time to shoot) or presents a juicier target for templates.

I've recently started running a unit of 2 Medusas in my mech IG army again, and I'm really liking them. I was running 2 Manticores/3 Hydras before. I was sometimes really wanting more low AP firepower from range so I switched back over to the Medusas and now it is 3 Hydras/2Medusas/1Manticore. I run my Medusas with normal shells for the big blast. Str10/AP2 is really good, and it does fine against tanks. Just because it isn't a Melta doesn't mean it can't do the job. Rolling 2D6 pick the highest for the armor pen roll is good enough, especially with 2 shots.

The role of the Medusas isn't primarily to AT work though. For me they're fantastic at letting me reach out and touch hard units from a distance (like Thunderwolves, Nobs/Nob Bikes, etc) and they're quite good against deepstriking units (Blood Angels, Daemons).

They're great utility because they can hurt literally anything your opponent puts on the table, and they aren't bad against anything.

The drawback is that they're pretty weak at 12/10 AV. However with 15 vehicles in the army I'm really saturating the table with targets and they're pretty much always have at least a cover save to help protect them.

Caffran9 wrote:

The role of the Medusas isn't primarily to AT work though. For me they're fantastic at letting me reach out and touch hard units from a distance (like Thunderwolves, Nobs/Nob Bikes, etc) and they're quite good against deepstriking units (Blood Angels, Daemons).

They're great utility because they can hurt literally anything your opponent puts on the table, and they aren't bad against anything.

THIS.

If you know your facing an armour list, then it is infact worth loading up on BB shells. A miss is a miss, partial converage of the large blast isnt going to do anything, whether your str10 or not. But if you hit them with 2d6+5 partial coverage you have a reasonable chance of damaging, especially because its directional.

Medusae will be attacked constantly because of their use, but their relatively cheap, so dont worry about loosing one, and dont rely on only them.

A normal Medusa shell can smash a heavy tank, but it will also wreck ANY infantry. When you think your enemy will be able to exploit the short range of a demolisher, field a medusa.


Remember: You can move and fire at full effect.

What I like about BB shells is that even if you miss the main shot, partials are still S5 +2d6. Dont forget, the shells are AP 1. Its a ranged melta shot. Only thing it doesnt work well against are Waveserpents (energy fields) and even vs monoliths you got the S10 AP 1 and a big target.

Ailaros wrote:
Plus, you've really got to compare it to a manticore to get a good idea of what to do. The manticore costs 20 more, but has the same strength. It's missing AP1, and the +D6 to pen, but it gains the ability to hit side armor, and has multiple shots, and can hit targets it can't see (among other nice things). Pretty much the one place where the medusa is worth it compared to the manticore is against things which are AV14/14... so pretty much land raiders.

Just because the manticore is better doesn't mean the medusa is useless. Lists need balance and tools, maxed out manticores is not going to be as effective long term as a mix of manticores and medusas.

Plus the medusa is completely equal with the manticore against AV 14, except the maticore has more chances to hit which makes it better.

The use of a medusa is as a cheap decently ranged demolisher cannon. If you know how to use a demoshiler cannon your all set.

And BB shells are TERRIBLE! You are paying more for a smaller blast radius and 2D6 is not that much better than 2d6 pick the highest. And with the large blast I cannot tell you how many tanks I have rocked from the side or rear with S5 2D6 Pick Highest, even when the center hole completely misses. I would have gotten virtually none of those with BB and paid more for it.

Ailaros wrote:
Of course, there is almost no reason to ever take a medusa without bastion breacher shells. With one exception (terminators, or, I guess if you're facing off against a lot of ogryn), the basilisk does what a medusa does without bastion breacher shells either better or for cheaper. The only reason to take the medusa over other types of artillery is for anti-tank, which means the +D6 of the breacher shells.

Despite the shorter range I disagree, barring apocalypse most boards won't be more than 48" so the Medusa at 36" is better for S10 and AP2 however with the loss of barrage.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:The use of a medusa is as a cheap decently ranged demolisher cannon. If you know how to use a demoshiler cannon your all set.

Well, compare the medusa to a basilisk. The only thing that the basilisk can't handle that the medusa can is terminators. Compare the terminator busting of the medusa to other, non-artillery ways of handling terminators, and you see that there are other options which are better and cheaper - they're just relatively short range.

As such, the only real benefit that a medusa gives is to terminators that are a long way away. Given that you can get your troops close to terminators due to moving, really the medusa is good for killing non-storm-shield terminators out in the open turn 1. Sounds like a pretty niche role to me.

phantommaster wrote:Despite the shorter range I disagree, barring apocalypse most boards won't be more than 48" so the Medusa at 36" is better for S10 and AP2 however with the loss of barrage.

Manticores get multiple shots, ignore most cover, and hit side armor when they attack. The only thing a non-BB medusa gets is AP1. Throw on the BB's, and they also get an extra D6, but manticores still get multiple shots, and they don't need to expose themselves to return fire in order to shoot it.

As such, the time that the medusa really shines in anti-tank over the manticore is against things without living metal and with AV14 all around (and to a lesser extent, Russes), where hitting side armor isn't as helpful. That isn't a terribly wide range of targets.

The real problem with the medusa is that it fills a few niche roles. If you have a need for those niches, then by all means use the medusa to fill them. The reason you don't see a lot of them fielded is because there are other ways to handle most of what the medusa winds up shooting at, for better and/or cheaper.

Ailaros wrote:

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:The use of a medusa is as a cheap decently ranged demolisher cannon. If you know how to use a demoshiler cannon your all set.

Well, compare the medusa to a basilisk. The only thing that the basilisk can't handle that the medusa can is terminators. Compare the terminator busting of the medusa to other, non-artillery ways of handling terminators, and you see that there are other options which are better and cheaper - they're just relatively short range.

As such, the only real benefit that a medusa gives is to terminators that are a long way away. Given that you can get your troops close to terminators due to moving, really the medusa is good for killing non-storm-shield terminators out in the open turn 1. Sounds like a pretty niche role to me.

The medusa is MUCH better than a basilisk at tank busting. Half S10 on AV 10 still has a 55% of doing something and a 30% chance of penetrating, it also has a chance of glancing AV 11, both HUGE tactical differences. The Medusa ignores all armor (there are a lot more things with a 2+ than terminators, and even if that thing is in cover a 4+ is much better than a 2+). The Medusa instant kills T5. The Medusa ignores all FNP. The Medusa is more accurate than an indirect basilisk. And the Medusa is only 5 pts more so its not like you are paying a huge premium for the abilities.

The following units laugh off a basallisk but would fear a medusa:
All manor of terminators (3+ is still better than 2+)
Deathguard
Oblits
Megnobs
Sanguinary Guard
Thunderwolf Cav
Ogryn

The only thing a basilisk has on a Medusa is indirect and range, but with Manticores how much long range indirect do you really need?

Ailaros wrote:I'd like to note that you're still spending 140 points to bag a 50 point transport, though. I mean, a manticore is even better against rhinos (multiple shots, hits side armor, etc.), but then you're spending 160 to take down a 50 point vehicle.

I mean, the best weapon to use in this case is probably a titan, but that might absorb a few too many points to be able to build a balanced list...

You're paying 160 points to make that double meltagun grey hunter squad leave their ride behind and hoof it across the battlefield. That's what you're paying for. And if you have a parking lot sitting across from you, you can place the templates so they clip multiple vehicles (if they roll a hit or minor scatter, of course).