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Yeah, the paper that proposed the link was pretty soundly discredited to the point of being retracted by the journal that published it.
As for Yad's story it's very likely that the children had been having issues for a long time and the parents simply didn't recognize it or acknowledge it. When they did start to realize what had happened the whole "vaccinations will give your kids autism" thing jumped to the fore, they pointed to the latest vaccination and went apeshit.
I've had my own issues with vaccinations. My little boy had a really bad allergic reaction to one of his. He was/is fine but at the time it was a bit concerning. We still finished his vaccinations and got his sisters their shots as well.
mattyrm wrote: I will bro fist a toilet cleaner.
I will chainfist a pretentious English literature student who wears a beret.
They are idiots. For a period of time we thought the mortality levels were at Black Plague rates. Thats Zombiepocalypse time.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
My missus has been nagging me to move to CA for a few years now, i visit twice a year, but im not staying!
Traffic Jams from hell, searing heat and an alarming amount of homeless people who talk to themselves has made me pick the UK.
I think if was gonna move to the US id go somewhere tiny and quiet.. like Middlesbrough Kentucky!
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
Rural Kentucky is a great place. Hell, pretty much anywhere rural Appalachians is not only gorgeous but quite temperate and nice to live in. Of course if you love the big city you're SOL as the roads wind out of there and take hours to go what would take you 30 minutes on the highway.
mattyrm wrote: I will bro fist a toilet cleaner.
I will chainfist a pretentious English literature student who wears a beret.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/10/29 15:52:11
Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men. Welcome to Fantasy 40k
If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.
Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
Why would I care? If a large portion of the population is dying off, then I want the army helping insure their compliance, before they infect everyone.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
but what age do kids get inoculated for...say, Measles? 1 year old?
Babies are usually protected from measles the first 6 months of their lives, PROVIDED that the mother was immune in the first place.
have you ever seen an infant who got measles? My aunt lost a kid that way.
With less and less people getting vaccinated, i think the tragedy my aunt had will be a more common occurance.
Before a child is born the parents if they are responsible people will register with a local doctor and hospital for the pre-natal cares and birth care.
The post-natal care includes a series of visits by a paediatric nurse, who will weigh and measure the baby and put the results in the baby's medical records book.
There are various vaccinations from birth onwards for several years. These are all noted in the medical record book.
I had all the childhood diseases when I was a child because it was before the vaccinations had been invented.
The only vaccine that isn't generally available now in the UK is Chickenpox. The young boy of a friend of my wife died of Chickenpox at the age of three, so we had our daughter vaccinated.
Tyyr wrote:Yeah, the paper that proposed the link was pretty soundly discredited to the point of being retracted by the journal that published it.
As for Yad's story it's very likely that the children had been having issues for a long time and the parents simply didn't recognize it or acknowledge it. When they did start to realize what had happened the whole "vaccinations will give your kids autism" thing jumped to the fore, they pointed to the latest vaccination and went apeshit.
I've had my own issues with vaccinations. My little boy had a really bad allergic reaction to one of his. He was/is fine but at the time it was a bit concerning. We still finished his vaccinations and got his sisters their shots as well.
Yeah, that's entirely possible. My wife thinks that it's likely a predisposition to autism that is triggered through environmental conditions (including vaccinations). Like I mentioned before, I don't believe there has been enough research done on this subject. Personally, I think that the rate and volume of vaccine's being injected into our children is abhorrent. Family friends of ours just got their child vaccinated. 4 shots (1 in each leg, 1 in the arm, and 1 oral) containing multiple vaccines. Time after time we see the FDA not fulfilling its regulatory duty toward these pharma companies. My own two children are vaccinated. However, we've implemented our own schedule. Consulting with our doctor on what vaccines we think are most appropriate. And we never administer more than two at a time.
The previous post was a bit of a post hoc fallacy it would seem.
Yad wrote:is triggered through environmental conditions (including vaccinations)
Vaccinations aren't environmental.
Yad wrote:Like I mentioned before, I don't believe there has been enough research done on this subject.
There is a metric ton of research on the subject as was brought up before and almost all of it finds no link between vaccines and autism. We have a fairly good grasp of what vaccines do and don't do.
Yad wrote:Personally, I think that the rate and volume of vaccine's being injected into our children is abhorrent.
You will need to be more clear on this point as it doesn't seem to follow your line of reasoning. So your neighbor gets it all done at once and you do it over a series of visits, that doesn't show an abhorrent over use of the vaccines.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
York/London(for weekends) oh for the glory of the british rail industry
Ahtman wrote:The previous post was a bit of a post hoc fallacy it would seem.
Yad wrote:is triggered through environmental conditions (including vaccinations)
Vaccinations aren't environmental.
Yes but his meaning was quite obvious, that the child was prediposed to the condition and the vacination triggered it.
With vaccinations the point is simple, there is always a very small danger of mortality due to adverse reactions but the deaths of a few children (although terrible for their families) but this is alot better than having hundreds of children die.
With the increase in the number of people not being immunised it also leads to a higher number of virus mutations due to more host bodies leading to more reproduction.
As for Yad he has seemed to prove the original point, out of all of us he is the only one with an personal experience of an adverse effect, even if it is second hand and unconfirmed, showing vaccines to be as a whole safe. i come from a very large family we have all had vaccines and are all healthy.
Relictors: 1500pts
its safe to say that relictors are the greatest army a man , nay human can own.
I'm cancelling you out of shame like my subscription to White Dwarf. - Mark Corrigan: Peep Show
Avatar 720 wrote:Eau de Ulthwé - The new fragrance; by Eldrad.
BluntmanDC wrote:Yes but his meaning was quite obvious
So calling non-environmental factors environmental factors is ok as long as someone thinks they get it? It is not proper, especially in something involving clinical research by the wrong name becuase it skews the information, or creates discrepancies. There is a significant difference between searching for environmental and and non-environmental factors.
BluntmanDC wrote:that the child was prediposed to the condition and the vacination triggered it.
Besides again being a post hoc fallacy, there is nothing that says the child was also predisposed to it or that the vaccination had anything to do with it.
BluntmanDC wrote:As for Yad he has seemed to prove the original point
Uhm, not even close.
BluntmanDC wrote:out of all of us he is the only one with an personal experience of an adverse effect, even if it is second hand and unconfirmed, showing vaccines to be as a whole safe. i come from a very large family we have all had vaccines and are all healthy.
It seems more like whether something is actually true or not isn't as important as it feeling like it is true.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
Frazzled wrote:1. Most if not all US domestic vaccine makers have gone out of business or quit making them due to law suits.
I would sooner blame the titanic pharmaceuticals which can absorb suits and compete on costs unfairly for the loss of mom and pop vacc... Wait a second, no. It's always been the same small number of titanic biomed corporations doing these under shell companies.
Yeah, the anti vac crowd is a bunch of simpering idiots.
----------------
Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad
York/London(for weekends) oh for the glory of the british rail industry
Ahtman wrote:
BluntmanDC wrote:that the child was prediposed to the condition and the vacination triggered it.
Besides again being a post hoc fallacy, there is nothing that says the child was also predisposed to it or that the vaccination had anything to do with it.
I never said it was true, i was saying what his post ment, which i think was pretty obvious to everyone, all you had to say was that vaccinations were not an enviromental factor but that it could 'acctivate' the condition (could being the proper word seeing as it hasn't been proven)
Ahtman wrote:
BluntmanDC wrote:As for Yad he has seemed to prove the original point
Uhm, not even close.
BluntmanDC wrote:out of all of us he is the only one with an personal experience of an adverse effect, even if it is second hand and unconfirmed, showing vaccines to be as a whole safe. i come from a very large family we have all had vaccines and are all healthy.
With the original point being that vaccines are safe, with only one uncomfirmed example compared to multiple examples of people who have been vaccinated and are fine, it does lead to the conclusion that vaccines are safe.
and on another note using 'post hoc fallacy' is really annoying seeing as you are only using it to look superior
Relictors: 1500pts
its safe to say that relictors are the greatest army a man , nay human can own.
I'm cancelling you out of shame like my subscription to White Dwarf. - Mark Corrigan: Peep Show
Avatar 720 wrote:Eau de Ulthwé - The new fragrance; by Eldrad.
Yad wrote:Now she and I haven't completely jumped on the bandwagon, but her experience is just one of many that she's had that may have some link back to vaccines. Unfortunately there has not been nearly enough competent studies done to rule this in or out.
No, there's been more than ten years of study following the original Lancet study. All very competent, and not one finding a link, let alone a causal link.
Autism is certainly on the rise, and the most likely cause appears to be the increasing age of parents. Not vaccines.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
Ahtman wrote:The previous post was a bit of a post hoc fallacy it would seem.
Yad wrote:is triggered through environmental conditions (including vaccinations)
Vaccinations aren't environmental.
Yes but his meaning was quite obvious, that the child was prediposed to the condition and the vacination triggered it.
With vaccinations the point is simple, there is always a very small danger of mortality due to adverse reactions but the deaths of a few children (although terrible for their families) but this is alot better than having hundreds of children die.
With the increase in the number of people not being immunised it also leads to a higher number of virus mutations due to more host bodies leading to more reproduction.
As for Yad he has seemed to prove the original point, out of all of us he is the only one with an personal experience of an adverse effect, even if it is second hand and unconfirmed, showing vaccines to be as a whole safe. i come from a very large family we have all had vaccines and are all healthy.
Were they ?
You sure ?
Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men. Welcome to Fantasy 40k
If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.
Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
Yad wrote:Like I mentioned before, I don't believe there has been enough research done on this subject.
There really, really has. This is from a CDC report published in May this year;
"They evaluated the records of 491 children born between 1993 and 1997 who got vaccinations on time, 235 who got recommended vaccines but not on time, and 311 who didn't get all of the recommended vaccines."
"Children can receive their immunizations on time and expect to have the same neurodevelopmental outcomes as children with any other pattern of vaccine receipt."
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men. Welcome to Fantasy 40k
If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.
Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
BluntmanDC wrote: all you had to say was that vaccinations were not an enviromental factor but that it could 'acctivate' the condition
I never said it could activate autism, and most of the other posters seem to be saying the same. I said that vaccines do not fall under the category of 'environmental' because they are not.
BluntmanDC wrote:and on another note using 'post hoc fallacy' is really annoying seeing as you are only using it to look superior
Seriously? I mean really, seriously? I, or anyone else, should act like we don't know things so you won't feel belittled or talked down to? I use the term because that is what it is **** ****. It seems like that I have less of a problem here than you. You might want to do a bit of self evaluation and figure out why if someone uses the proper terms for things that it makes you uncomfortable enough to say something. If someone is talking about pneumonia and using the term pneumonia do you also feel that are trying to act superior because they don't say "really bad cold virus" instead?
Edited by Moderator.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/10/30 16:00:48
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
York/London(for weekends) oh for the glory of the british rail industry
As the old adage goes its not the word but how you use it, i was not stating that using the very correct term was wrong, but in the way you were using it, as i did not personally feel belittled seeing as i know what it means but you seemed to use it in such a way to undermine Yat. That is why i said it
and don't call me a silly boy as i am not.
@loki old fart:
this is one man, while multiple researchers have found similar and seperate results that there is no link between vaccinations and autism
Relictors: 1500pts
its safe to say that relictors are the greatest army a man , nay human can own.
I'm cancelling you out of shame like my subscription to White Dwarf. - Mark Corrigan: Peep Show
Avatar 720 wrote:Eau de Ulthwé - The new fragrance; by Eldrad.
BluntmanDC wrote:As the old adage goes its not the word but how you use it, i was not stating that using the very correct term was wrong, but in the way you were using it, as i did not personally feel belittled seeing as i know what it means but you seemed to use it in such a way to undermine Yat. That is why i said it
and don't call me a silly boy as i am not.
@loki old fart:
this is one man, while multiple researchers have found similar and seperate results that there is no link between vaccinations and autism
Nope he's just the one I chose to link
Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men. Welcome to Fantasy 40k
If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.
Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
Yad wrote:Yeah, that's entirely possible. My wife thinks that it's likely a predisposition to autism that is triggered through environmental conditions (including vaccinations). Like I mentioned before, I don't believe there has been enough research done on this subject.
The MMR paper that triggered the panic wasn't a paper as such, it was a collection of case notes, that is when a Doctor observes a few things and makes what amounts to little more than speculation. Andrew Wakefield made no authoritative study, it was a tiny sample of children from parents already predisposed towards autism, he was paid by people who already associated vaccines with autism. He didn't present the data, even in its loose form, in a responsible and unbiased manner. When it started to kick off other groups started trying to reproduce the results and couldn't do it, because Wakefield's work was at best flawed and in retrospect fraudulent in their claims, likely the latter seeing as further investigation has found that he altered results to fit the MMR-autism link hypothesis.
It has been 10 years, there is a lot of work done on vaccines especially in relation to MMR and autism. Time and again the biggest studies show no connections, the meta-analyses for the whole literature show that there is no connection. Meanwhile Wakefield's papers have been retracted by their journals, Wakefield himself has been stuck off in the UK for misconduct charges among which included carrying out colonoscopies and spinal taps without approval. Wakefield then stripped of the right to practice medicine in the UK moved to the US where he's now bankrolled by anti-vaccination groups to continue his great work on autism. It's quite frightening, that someone struck off in the UK is allowed to work as a doctor in the US and people take their kids to him.
There is a wealth of research done on vaccines, it's usually the anti-vax mob that come out with the "there's not enough research" line and I would not like anyone to swallow it as being true. It's always worth paying attention to the sorts of people who sign off criticism especially in news items with "there needs to be more research". Often it is a disingenuous way to sound reasonable and open minded while covering for the fact that they have very little constructive criticism to make, or even prove they understand the subject beyond their opposition to it.
One reason why people associate autism with vaccinations is that autism tends to appear around the time children have vaccinations, but it's coincidental, autism tends not to show itself earlier and most children have several vaccinations aged about 5 in the UK. In fact research now is showing a stronger link to genetics, if children have autism in all probability their parents gave it to them, no one is to blame. But some people always need something to blame, maybe because they feel powerless or guilty (they shouldn't really, it's no ones fault), and vaccinations fit the bill perfectly.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/10/29 19:39:42
First up, in a comparison between peer reviewed CDC reports and youtube clips, which one should be given more credibility? Second up, would your concern be the mercury they stopped putting in vaccines about a decade ago?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/10/29 19:38:38
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
Gak Sebster you just don't get it do you? The evidence is staring you in the face. Its the short sleeved dress shirt !(we used to call those engineer shirts) Do you not see the conspiracy!
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Yeah Loki, they tested and tested and tested them after the initial furore, they tested them in the USA, UK, Australia, Denmark, Sweden and all sorts of places i cant even recall from the top of my head..
The point is, they are safe.
For myself, i recall the government reacting to this by making our 3 Anthrax jabs "voluntary" before we went to Iraq, and i got all of them, in fact, i trust Science so implicity i took every single shot i ever got offered!
Yellow Fever, Anthrax, Rabies, Typhoid... the works!
And im totally ..... gibber... normal.. gibber..
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
That's the thing about the military. I had everything aswell, smallpox etc etc
Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men. Welcome to Fantasy 40k
If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.
Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
Yad wrote:Personally, I think that the rate and volume of vaccine's being injected into our children is abhorrent.
-Yad
Wait... what? Children being vaccinated so that they won't have to deal with potentially deadly or debilitating diseases is abhorrent? Is your issue with the child getting multiple vaccines in one trip to the doctor? What's the problem with that?
mattyrm wrote: I will bro fist a toilet cleaner.
I will chainfist a pretentious English literature student who wears a beret.
BluntmanDC wrote: all you had to say was that vaccinations were not an enviromental factor but that it could 'acctivate' the condition
I never said it could activate autism, and most of the other posters seem to be saying the same. I said that vaccines do not fall under the category of 'environmental' because they are not.
BluntmanDC wrote:and on another note using 'post hoc fallacy' is really annoying seeing as you are only using it to look superior
Seriously? I mean really, seriously? I, or anyone else, should act like we don't know things so you won't feel belittled or talked down to? I use the term because that is what it is you silly boy. It seems like that I have less of a problem here than you. You might want to do a bit of self evaluation and figure out why if someone uses the proper terms for things that it makes you uncomfortable enough to say something. If someone is talking about pneumonia and using the term pneumonia do you also feel that are trying to act superior because they don't say "really bad cold virus" instead?
I would like to point out that I have a reasonable understanding of rhetoric, and can speak latin, and the term "post hoc fallacy" means "after this fallacy", which doesn't particularly indicate that it is the fallacy of correlation=cause, and so people who do not have a knowledge of rhetoric are unlikely to understand what you meant.
You may have a good knowledge of this, but do not assume that everyone else on this forum has the same level of understanding as you, as it does make it seem like you are attempting to use your vocabulary to belittle your opponent.
loki old fart wrote:
They use synthetic mercury now. The last swine flu vaccine had it in. Doctors and nurses were refusing to take it. But as you guys say they were idiots over reacting.
Of course, that could only be evidence indicating that the vaccine is unsafe.
It could never indicate that vaccines often induce a limited form of the illness they are designed to counter, and that such a risk was not especially worthwhile given that swine flu was neither very widespread, nor particularly virulent. Nor could it possibly be related to the limited supply of the vaccine, and the resultant drive to give it to those at risk; the very young and the elderly.
You'll note that young, healthy people rarely get vaccinated against the flu. Clearly if only the elderly refused to be vaccinated they would grow both younger and healthier.
Perhaps you should be more careful when considering causality, or at the very least note that not doing something can be just as foolish as doing something. You are always at risk, the question regards only how best to mitigate that risk.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Goliath wrote:
I would like to point out that I have a reasonable understanding of rhetoric, and can speak latin, and the term "post hoc fallacy" means "after this fallacy", which doesn't particularly indicate that it is the fallacy of correlation=cause, and so people who do not have a knowledge of rhetoric are unlikely to understand what you meant.
Actually, "post hoc" is the short form of "post hoc ergo proper hoc" or "after this, therefore because of this", and it is the fallacy of equating correlation with causation.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/10/30 00:10:19
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
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