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I watched this today...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OMLSs8t1ng&feature=channel

Specter claims that people in the US are getting LESS vaccines, not more, and this is due to scare-mongering.

Many studies have indicated that vaccines do not cause things such as autism, but people believe the hype more than they believe figures and facts.

I then recalled seeing a Kent Hovind lecture and one of the things he whinged about was vaccines, he said they "will kill you" and devoted one of his "lectures" to the subject.

So my question is, why do Religious people not wish to take vaccines, and what scriptural reasons would there be for not using them?

Has everyone forgotten what we did to Smallpox?!

The more Religious people who don't get life saving vaccines the better imo, though that might be the chip Dawkins implants into all babies who don't get christened </sarcasm>

1. Most if not all US domestic vaccine makers have gone out of business or quit making them due to law suits.

2. There is a small movement of nattering nabobs who blab about the above autism and other nonsense, relying on everyone else to effectively protect them because everyone else is vaccinated.

To be fair i suppose that everyone else getting vaccinated would kinda work..

But what i dont get, is what has the bible got to say about vaccination that would get Kent Hoving rabbiting on about it?!

Is there a passage or something they interepreted as being "anti" vaccination?

No, there is not.

However that doesnt account for misinterpretation. Most vaccines are by-products of a host, so on a slim technicality it can be seen as blood sharing, which is forbidden Biblically.

However there is a word of difference between a blood pact and a blood transfusion, let alone a vaccination. You just try telling the JW's that.


Anti-vaccination doctrines are far more common in cults than extreme churches. Restricting access to the medical profession is a central theme of cult control. You might not need to wonder too deeply what Scientology has against psychiatrists, anit vaccination is the same thing but on a looser scale.
The real doctrine I think is: keep the medical profession away if you want to brainwash. Which makes sense in a horrid way.

I'm agreeing with Orlanth! Awesome.

Yep. Vaccination can be interpreted to be a violation of the prohibition on sharing blood, but that interpretation is pretty rare.

More common in "cult" groups (as distinguished from the word Cult as used by sociologists) is the theme of control and limiting members' access to the outside world, including medical professionals. I don't think limiting their access to medicine specifically is called out on Bonewits' cult danger evaluation frame (the ABCDEF), but it fits in well.

The main thing in the US though, as Fraz pointed out, is that some people have convinced themselves that vaccines are dangerous and might be a cause of autism and other issues. These people, sometimes misguided but desperately wounded parents of autistic kids themselves, understandably make it a crusade to help others. Sadly, their premise is flawed, and their efforts counterproductive.

Woah i agree with Orlanth as well...

So Orlanth, would you keep a child from getting a life saving blood transfusion? Im pretty sure you wouldnt after what you just said.. so this makes me wonder, what do Jehovas witnesses have against it? Does it all just boil down to the way different sects have interpreted the bible?

mattyrm wrote:Woah i agree with Orlanth as well...

So Orlanth, would you keep a child from getting a life saving blood transfusion? Im pretty sure you wouldnt after what you just said.. so this makes me wonder, what do Jehovas witnesses have against it? Does it all just boil down to the way different sects have interpreted the bible?

To be clear, don't misinterpret Orlanth providing info with agreeing with said info.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:The more Religious people who don't get life saving vaccines the better imo, though that might be the chip Dawkins implants into all babies who don't get christened </sarcasm>

in the US its not the religious nuts who are the vast majority not getting vaccines.

Frazzled wrote:

mattyrm wrote:Woah i agree with Orlanth as well...

So Orlanth, would you keep a child from getting a life saving blood transfusion? Im pretty sure you wouldnt after what you just said.. so this makes me wonder, what do Jehovas witnesses have against it? Does it all just boil down to the way different sects have interpreted the bible?

To be clear, don't misinterpret Orlanth providing info with agreeing with said info.

Aww.

Frazzled wrote:

Gwar! wrote:The more Religious people who don't get life saving vaccines the better imo, though that might be the chip Dawkins implants into all babies who don't get christened </sarcasm>

in the US its not the religious nuts who are the vast majority not getting vaccines.

Now I am agreeing with Frazzie. This thread is getting wierd quick.


Common hysteria and scaremongering rather than religion is to blame. Most vaccination programs are aimed at the young, after childhood you only really need shot very infrequently and mostly revolving around foreign travel. So the majority of vaccination withdrawals are related to scared parents, adults don't get vaccinated for different reasons, normally idleness and a personal dislike of needles.

I think vaccination scares are similar in nature to paedo scares, the number of children kept from using parks by worried parents well outweighs the risk of attack. In surveys most parents overrestimated the risk of a paedo attack by 200 times the actual risk. Yes paedos exist, and yes kids do die from incorrectly prepared serums or occassionally from an allergic reaction, but the risks are lower than negligible. It would make a lot more sense to avoid all car journeys, but that means no trips to McDonalds of course.

Why trust medical science when this woman knows that it is all a conspiracy by the medical-industrial complex?

Yea it was mainly Montel Williams and Oprah that screwed the whole thing. They had a few shows with a couple of sobbing women that said their children got messed up because of vaccines. Even though all the mothers are doing is just blaming something for why their kids have what they have. Its really a natural thing any parent would do.

I dont get what you Europeans are worried about, if this trend continues we Americans will die off from the flu

Frazzled wrote:2. There is a small movement of nattering nabobs who blab about the above autism and other nonsense, relying on everyone else to effectively protect them because everyone else is vaccinated.

The problem with the colossal scare of the last few years is that many others have failed to take it up, it's not religious groups. Actually I've looked at various forums online and the ones often still refusing to vaccinate their children because they want them to get immunity 'naturally' (From what mumps and measels? They can cause infertility and brain damage) are these extreme organic greeny sorts. Not the reasonable ones, the freaky fundamentalist sorts who have coffee enemas and need internet forums full of anti-vaccination sorts as some kind of middle class support group. They really are an ignorant and dangerous bunch of people.

When everyone was being vaccinated the odd person not being covered wasn't a huge issue because we had what is described as herd immunity. But these anti-vaccination groups and the health scares whipped up by the media have spread paranoia into the public and take up of vaccines is now insufficient to give herd immunity. Not only are the unvaccinated at much greater risk, but now even those who are vaccinated are at greater risk of exposure which puts them at increased risk too. There have been outbreaks of measles and mumps for the first time in years in the UK. Most people who are young parents are about my age and have probably grown up with no personal experience of these diseases which is why they aren't taken seriously. I read a few articles says that they were not far off eradicating some of these diseases but that work has been set back decades. It's bad news and it's all down to the media creating a health scare and ignorant selfish people refusing to vaccinate their children when the facts are plainly obvious. There's a good argument to make vaccination compulsory to protect these children from their own parents, as well as everyone else in society.

Only dumpkoffs believe this. I am religious, and I KNOW that vaccines are, in fact, good for you. The only people who believe this are fear mongering idiots who don't understand how vaccines work. How is a dead/weakened virus going to cause a genetic disease such as autism?

It isn't restricted to religious beliefs.
We had a similar issue regarding the triple MMR vaccine
(Mumps, Measles,Rubella) which was said to increase the chances of Autism.
There was iirc no proven grounds for the connection between MMR and Autism, but parents got very worried and refused to have their children vaccinated.
Pressure groups had no connections to religion afaik.

The Daily Mail.

Kilkrazy wrote:The Daily Mail.

I would have said the cult of Daily Mail readers, but it all amounts to the same thing!

I don't think religious fruitiness has much to do with the fear of vaccines. Blame flawed reporting from medical professionals (& charaltans) and the media.

KingCracker wrote:
I dont get what you Europeans are worried about, if this trend continues we Americans will die off from the flu

Alright chaps, 'fess up : who spilled the beans here then ?

There was a serious piece published in the Lancet in the mid-90s, arguing for a causal relationship between autism and vaccinations. It was theorised that the small dose of mercury in the vaccine might have been the cause.

This sparked off a lot of follow up studies, none of which replicated the original findings. Peer review of the original study showed it to have serious methodological problems. The Lancet formally retracted the study in 2007 or thereabouts. Even if it had been a problem there hasn't been mercury used in vaccines for about a decade.

But the seed was already sown among the general population. Unfortunately autism become apparent around the same time as the MMR vaccine, and there is a natural human condition to look for something to blame for any problems our children might have. So you get sobbing Mothers telling their stories on daytime television, and that's more influential to people than science.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Frazzled wrote:2. There is a small movement of nattering nabobs who blab about the above autism and other nonsense, relying on everyone else to effectively protect them because everyone else is vaccinated.

The problem with the colossal scare of the last few years is that many others have failed to take it up, it's not religious groups. Actually I've looked at various forums online and the ones often still refusing to vaccinate their children because they want them to get immunity 'naturally' (From what mumps and measels? They can cause infertility and brain damage) are these extreme organic greeny sorts. Not the reasonable ones, the freaky fundamentalist sorts who have coffee enemas and need internet forums full of anti-vaccination sorts as some kind of middle class support group. They really are an ignorant and dangerous bunch of people.

When everyone was being vaccinated the odd person not being covered wasn't a huge issue because we had what is described as herd immunity. But these anti-vaccination groups and the health scares whipped up by the media have spread paranoia into the public and take up of vaccines is now insufficient to give herd immunity. Not only are the unvaccinated at much greater risk, but now even those who are vaccinated are at greater risk of exposure which puts them at increased risk too. There have been outbreaks of measles and mumps for the first time in years in the UK. Most people who are young parents are about my age and have probably grown up with no personal experience of these diseases which is why they aren't taken seriously. I read a few articles says that they were not far off eradicating some of these diseases but that work has been set back decades. It's bad news and it's all down to the media creating a health scare and ignorant selfish people refusing to vaccinate their children when the facts are plainly obvious. There's a good argument to make vaccination compulsory to protect these children from their own parents, as well as everyone else in society.

What he said.

the sad part about these folks not getting vaccinated is that they hurt the "herd immunity" as well

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity

we dont see a lot of small pox and polio because the "herd" is immune... but then these idiots screw up everything.

Herd immunity only protects the un-vaccinated.

The vaccinated are immune no matter how many un-vaccinated there are in the herd.

I would say it is the revenge of nature upon the foolish but of course it is the innocent children, at the mercy of their parents, who suffer the evil consequences.

lets just put it this way... who are the folks who dont get vaccinated anyway?

its usually kids and folks who live below the poverty line (at least thats how it is where im from)

If those who can afford it get vaccinated and at the same time protect those who havent and/or cant i can only see that as a good thing.

Is there anyone here who's actually experienced an issue with a vaccination personally, or had a close friend/family member have one? I have.

My wife is an Occupational Therapist. For those of you that don't know (and don't feel like googling it), an OT helps you figure out how to live with whatever disability/trauma/syndrome you may have. Anyway, my wife specializes in pediatric early intervention (from birth - three years old). She had a family with two boys both on the spectrum (meaning they both have autism). Both boys were completely normal until their 18 month vaccination course. Exactly one week after the eldest got his shots he began to rapidly lose cognitive and motor functions. The family took a just in case approach and told their doctor to not administer the vaccine to their youngest.

Apparently this wasn't properly communicated to the doctor's staff. When the mother brought the youngest in, they came in to draw blood. Immediately after that they gave him a shot. The way my wife tells it is that the mom immediately freaked. Sure enough, one week later the kid follows in his brother's footsteps and is labeled as autistic.

My wife is currently working with 8 kids all under three and within a 15 mile radius that all have autism. She can't remember the last time she had a CP (Cerebral Palsy) kid. Her biggest problem is that if we treated autism like we did cancer we would quickly realize that we have an epidemic on our hands and should devote considerable resources toward figuring out the root cause.

Now she and I haven't completely jumped on the bandwagon, but her experience is just one of many that she's had that may have some link back to vaccines. Unfortunately there has not been nearly enough competent studies done to rule this in or out.

Oh, and I used to work for a pharma company that dealt with vaccines. You would not believe the amount of money on the line should there come a time when a link could be established.

-Yad

Bakerofish wrote:lets just put it this way... who are the folks who dont get vaccinated anyway?

its usually kids and folks who live below the poverty line (at least thats how it is where im from)

If those who can afford it get vaccinated and at the same time protect those who havent and/or cant i can only see that as a good thing.

Vaccination is free in the UK.

So thats worse than hundreds of thousands of people getting polio? Sucker please...

Kilkrazy wrote:Vaccination is free in the UK.

true.

but what age do kids get inoculated for...say, Measles? 1 year old?

Babies are usually protected from measles the first 6 months of their lives, PROVIDED that the mother was immune in the first place.

have you ever seen an infant who got measles? My aunt lost a kid that way.

With less and less people getting vaccinated, i think the tragedy my aunt had will be a more common occurance.

Yad wrote:Is there anyone here who's actually experienced an issue with a vaccination personally, or had a close friend/family member have one? I have.

My wife is an Occupational Therapist. For those of you that don't know (and don't feel like googling it), an OT helps you figure out how to live with whatever disability/trauma/syndrome you may have. Anyway, my wife specializes in pediatric early intervention (from birth - three years old). She had a family with two boys both on the spectrum (meaning they both have autism). Both boys were completely normal until their 18 month vaccination course. Exactly one week after the eldest got his shots he began to rapidly lose cognitive and motor functions. The family took a just in case approach and told their doctor to not administer the vaccine to their youngest.

Apparently this wasn't properly communicated to the doctor's staff. When the mother brought the youngest in, they came in to draw blood. Immediately after that they gave him a shot. The way my wife tells it is that the mom immediately freaked. Sure enough, one week later the kid follows in his brother's footsteps and is labeled as autistic.

My wife is currently working with 8 kids all under three and within a 15 mile radius that all have autism. She can't remember the last time she had a CP (Cerebral Palsy) kid. Her biggest problem is that if we treated autism like we did cancer we would quickly realize that we have an epidemic on our hands and should devote considerable resources toward figuring out the root cause.

Now she and I haven't completely jumped on the bandwagon, but her experience is just one of many that she's had that may have some link back to vaccines. Unfortunately there has not been nearly enough competent studies done to rule this in or out.

Oh, and I used to work for a pharma company that dealt with vaccines. You would not believe the amount of money on the line should there come a time when a link could be established.

-Yad

I think its much more likely that the 100s of thousands of kids that receive the same shot and DIDN'T develop autism... are a better data set to look at here.... So what commonality exists between the brothers?

I dunno... Genetics?

Seems like these autism cases come in... and unsurprisingly the people who develop autism are all related... I wonder what could cause that...

micahaphone wrote:Only dumpkoffs believe this. I am religious, and I KNOW that vaccines are, in fact, good for you. The only people who believe this are fear mongering idiots who don't understand how vaccines work. How is a dead/weakened virus going to cause a genetic disease such as autism?

And only idiots would post this.
It wasn't the vacccine that was causing concern, it was the compound used to perserve it.

but wasnt the guy who started the whole hullabaloo about the whole vaccine to autism link discredited for "unethical practices"?

googled!

http://www.badscience.net/2010/01/the-wakefield-mmr-verdict/

while i will not claim that the above link is a completely trustworthy POV it does provide us a lot of google and actual research fodder to decide for yourselves

Yad wrote:Is there anyone here who's actually experienced an issue with a vaccination personally, or had a close friend/family member have one? I have.

My wife is an Occupational Therapist. For those of you that don't know (and don't feel like googling it), an OT helps you figure out how to live with whatever disability/trauma/syndrome you may have. Anyway, my wife specializes in pediatric early intervention (from birth - three years old). She had a family with two boys both on the spectrum (meaning they both have autism). Both boys were completely normal until their 18 month vaccination course. Exactly one week after the eldest got his shots he began to rapidly lose cognitive and motor functions. The family took a just in case approach and told their doctor to not administer the vaccine to their youngest.

Apparently this wasn't properly communicated to the doctor's staff. When the mother brought the youngest in, they came in to draw blood. Immediately after that they gave him a shot. The way my wife tells it is that the mom immediately freaked. Sure enough, one week later the kid follows in his brother's footsteps and is labeled as autistic.

My wife is currently working with 8 kids all under three and within a 15 mile radius that all have autism. She can't remember the last time she had a CP (Cerebral Palsy) kid. Her biggest problem is that if we treated autism like we did cancer we would quickly realize that we have an epidemic on our hands and should devote considerable resources toward figuring out the root cause.

Now she and I haven't completely jumped on the bandwagon, but her experience is just one of many that she's had that may have some link back to vaccines. Unfortunately there has not been nearly enough competent studies done to rule this in or out.

Oh, and I used to work for a pharma company that dealt with vaccines. You would not believe the amount of money on the line should there come a time when a link could be established.

-Yad

They use synthetic mercury now. The last swine flu vaccine had it in. Doctors and nurses were refusing to take it. But as you guys say they were idiots over reacting.