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insaniak wrote:

Joostuh wrote:This is 100% illegal, multiple models can't occupy the same space on the table.

They're not occupying the same space. That would be physically impossible.

The rules on not moving through the space occupied by another model are there to stop you from 'phasing' models through each other as they move. They have no impact on one model being above another... otherwise movement on different levels in ruins would be impossible.

By that logic, I could make a tower of my Rhino's and drive around! Disembarking would be a problem, though.

Except you would be prevented by the rule that makes other models impassable terrain. So getting the rhinos stacked like that would be problematic.

whocares wrote:Technically, it wasn't base to base if your base was flocked as he was touching the flock, and not the base itself. To touch the base he would have to touch the edge of the base, like the thousand sons.

...unless the edge of the base was painted, in which case he's not touching the edge of the base, he's touching the paint... I don't think we really need to go there. The base is the base, regardless of what you stick to it.

Technically, two objects never really "touch." They are repelled by the electric fields of the valence electrons of the surface atoms. So you can never make assault!

No, I would never argue a model wasn't in base to base because it was flocked. But it's pretty tempting when your opponent is trying to reposition his physical model to make assault.

Except you would be prevented by the rule that makes other models impassable terrain. So getting the rhinos stacked like that would be problematic.

Wait... other models are impassable terain, but you can assault "over" them even though your on the same level.

...

Doesn't even matter though? Shouldn't you get your hull (arms, if you even count them as hull, but lets say you do...) in to base contact with the enemy model. That seems pretty impossible when surrounded by Marines...

Joostuh wrote:Wait... other models are impassable terain, but you can assault "over" them even though your on the same level.

I don't see any physical way for that to be possible, no. I made the point up aways that touching the top of the base would technically allow an assault, but that you're going to have a hard time actually doing that if the target is surrounded.

Doesn't even matter though? Shouldn't you get your hull (arms, if you even count them as hull, but lets say you do...) in to base contact with the enemy model. That seems pretty impossible when surrounded by Marines...

Exactly.

This leads me to the query of can you put skimmers on the table in such a way that they hover over the top of another unit?

Nope. The Skimmer movement rules specifically forbid skimmers from ending their movement on top of other models. This is a specific rule to Skimmers, though.

Scott-S6 wrote:

Forsakenname wrote:In a recent game my C'tan was completely surrounded (one model deep around the whole model) by a unit of Thousand sons Marines. My Opponent then Assaulted my C'tan with a Defiler by moving it's arms so they touched the C'tan model (the Nightbringer model is huge so it's rather easy to do this with a defiler) ... Is this a legal move? Moving the arms did not bring the unit's total movement for the assault over 6 inches. Is it still legal if there are models in the way? Please site sources / give reasons why it is or isn't legal but opinions are welcome too.

First, was the defiler in base contact? It sounds like he was just touching the mini. Base contact is required.
Secondly, the only time you can move part of a model is when firing vehicle weapons.

that has already been established.

3d movement is hard...reaching over a unit to touch another model? But if it's base to base...a nightbringer does have a base...on the ground. did the defiler touch the base on the ground?

IMO since the Defiler does not have a base, it's cool if the arms count.

But what I don't get is why he is able to assault at all if the is *completely* surrounded by Thousand Sons. If he is completely surrounded, it sounds to me like there is no way into assault - even if you sleaze the arms over.

what these guys dont realize, is most defilers arms touch the ground, it walks sort of monkey style.

so if this is the case, and he didn't move the arm mid-game, its fine, cool.

if it isn't then no.

It doesn't matter if he didn't move the arms mid game, he cannot reach over other models to get into assault.

calypso2ts wrote:It doesn't matter if he didn't move the arms mid game, he cannot reach over other models to get into assault.

so units can't stand under sponsons/turrets/decks/other dangly bits that stick out from the hull?
interesting.

Grundz wrote:

calypso2ts wrote:It doesn't matter if he didn't move the arms mid game, he cannot reach over other models to get into assault.

so units can't stand under sponsons/turrets/decks/other dangly bits that stick out from the hull?
interesting.

They can, if there is room for them. That's not the issue, though. For the arms to be high enough up to pass over the intervening models, they're most likely going to be too high up to contact the target's base.

insaniak wrote:They can, if there is room for them. That's not the issue, though. For the arms to be high enough up to pass over the intervening models, they're most likely going to be too high up to contact the target's base.

note that the arms are pretty curled up and acting as feet, but you can easily fit an infantry modle underneath them, they could be /way/ farther out, still high enough for an infantry to pass under, and touching the ground.

In my opinion the issue seems simple enough. The rules seem to state that if the unit in question is completely surrounded by models, it is impossible to be base to base, because all the "base real estate" is completely taken up.

Having the arm reach over models and attempt to touch the base might be RAW, but most people wouldn't play like that.

Regardless, I don't really see how it is possible to reach over Marine models by moving the arm mid-game (which is basically like adjusting a sail on a Dark Eldar Raider to avoid being shot throught the hull - but that's an entirely new topic), and touch the base of a C'tan Model.

You can't just touch the body - it has to be the actual round base. For this to just "happen", it would take a lot of finnagling of the arm, and I can see many players basically ripping the arm off the Defiler model to make this scenario possible. Ergo, it shouldn't really happen.

Like I said earlier, if you can just move your arms around constantly during a game, what's stopping people from moving hull parts around on any other model to avoid line of sight?

Grundz wrote:note that the arms are pretty curled up and acting as feet, but you can easily fit an infantry modle underneath them, they could be /way/ farther out, still high enough for an infantry to pass under, and touching the ground.

But you can't move through other models. The point was that if you're trying to assault a model that is surrounded, a defiler with it's legs on the ground is not going to be able to get those legs into base contact with the prospective target without moving through the surrounding models.

The problem isn't being able to fit under the legs. The issue is with moving through other models in order to reach the target.

insaniak wrote:

Grundz wrote:note that the arms are pretty curled up and acting as feet, but you can easily fit an infantry modle underneath them, they could be /way/ farther out, still high enough for an infantry to pass under, and touching the ground.

But you can't move through other models. The point was that if you're trying to assault a model that is surrounded, a defiler with it's legs on the ground is not going to be able to get those legs into base contact with the prospective target without moving through the surrounding models.

The problem isn't being able to fit under the legs. The issue is with moving through other models in order to reach the target.

so, above turrets/sponsons/decks/whatever would travel overtop another model if I move, i can't move?

note: I'm not trying to be a dick, but I am in the process of converting all my IG tanks into sweet walkers for my army, so this is extremely relevent to me

You can have a model move underneath the turrets/sponsons/decks/whatever. And, you can move the tank so that models pass underneath the turrets/etc. But, at any given moment during your move, the tank has to be able to be placed on the table without any part of it coming into contact with a model.

Just remember: You may pick your models up to move them, but they actually need to drive along the tabletop.

Grundz wrote:so, above turrets/sponsons/decks/whatever would travel overtop another model if I move, i can't move?

I'm not entirely sure what you're asking here.

There is nothing stopping a vehicle from moving so that a part of it moves above other models (although skimmers are specifically prohibited from finishing their movement on top of other models.) ... although if they're enemy models you're moving over, you need to observe the 1" rule... so moving over them requires the vehicle's hull to remain more than an inch away at all times.

Again, the issue with the topic at hand was with needing to move the defiler's leg through (no over) other models in order to get it into base contact with a target that is completely surrounded. The fact that models can fit under the defiler is completely irrelevant to that point. It's the defiler that is moving, and it can't move its leg through another model.

Sorry Grak I should have been more explicit in my language. What I was getting at is the only way for the 'arm' to reach down to touch the base is if it is doing just that - reaching towards the ground. If a model is surrounded, then putting the arm in base would mean lifting the defiler and placing it back down with the arm over top the surrounding models. Keeping it on the tabletop (without leaning it backward and then forward) there is no way to get to the target unit.

By over I meant a walker cannot just be lifted over the other models to get around them.

Insaniak sums it up quite nicely.

calypso2ts wrote:Sorry Grak I should have been more explicit in my language. What I was getting at is the only way for the 'arm' to reach down to touch the base is if it is doing just that - reaching towards the ground. If a model is surrounded, then putting the arm in base would mean lifting the defiler and placing it back down with the arm over top the surrounding models. Keeping it on the tabletop (without leaning it backward and then forward) there is no way to get to the target unit.

By over I meant a walker cannot just be lifted over the other models to get around them.

Insaniak sums it up quite nicely.

Yup, I got your point, I was responding to Grundz clarification question.

ohhhh, maybe I meant Grundz I should have been more explicit. One of you needs to change to a non gr name, it is confusering.

calypso2ts wrote:ohhhh, maybe I meant Grundz I should have been more explicit. One of you needs to change to a non gr name, it is confusering.

actually it made no sense to me, but I had forgotten that the claw couldn't go "through" an infantry's base, even though the base could go "through" the vehicle.

OK so did anyone come up with a definitive yes or no answer to if you can move the arms/ legs during the game? He thinks that people have strengthened his argument by saying that you can move shooting weapons for line of sight reasons. He also is still stuck on the fact that the model is designed to have movable legs ... He's rather stubborn. How does this work in tournaments are you required to have the legs glued or put the defiler on a base?

Ask him if he can find permission to move his models legs/adjust the dimensions of a model in-game - he won't be able to.
That's it.

There is a quite definitive answer concerning the legs: Ask him to find one single rule allowing him to move the legs, and say that can move the legs according to that rule. And tell him that you're prepared to wait while he looks. And don't forget to point out that the legs and the close combat arms aren't shooting weapons, so the rules for shooting weapons do not apply.

As for tournaments, insert tournament organizer and possibly shouting as needed.

solkan wrote: Ask him to find one single rule allowing him to move the legs, and say that can move the legs according to that rule. And tell him that you're prepared to wait while he looks.

Bring a pillow for a nice little nap while he does this,you might be waiting a while until he gives up.

Grundz wrote:actually it made no sense to me, but I had forgotten that the claw couldn't go "through" an infantry's base, even though the base could go "through" the vehicle.

It's not just the infantry's base that the claw can't go through. It can't go through the infantry model, period.

And the infantry model likewise can not go through the vehicle. They can pass through the nearby space (including underneath, if there is clearance), but can not pass through any physical part of the vehicle.

Forsakenname wrote:OK so did anyone come up with a definitive yes or no answer to if you can move the arms/ legs during the game?

The definitive answer was given at the start: There are no rules that allow it, so it's not something that you can do.

He thinks that people have strengthened his argument by saying that you can move shooting weapons for line of sight reasons.

Not seeing how that does anything positive for his argument, since you don't draw LOS for close combat attacks.

He also is still stuck on the fact that the model is designed to have movable legs ...

How the model is designed is irrelevant. Land Raiders are designed with movable assault ramps. This also has no effect on their rules. Nor does the fact that at least one of the Obliterator models comes with an Assault Cannon allow Obliterators to use them in game.

In order to change the position of the model mid-game, you need a rule that says you can do so. The model having ball-sockets on its hips means zip, so far as the actual rules are concerned.

insaniak wrote:

Grundz wrote:actually it made no sense to me, but I had forgotten that the claw couldn't go "through" an infantry's base, even though the base could go "through" the vehicle.

And the infantry model likewise can not go through the vehicle. They can pass through the nearby space (including underneath, if there is clearance), but can not pass through any physical part of the vehicle.

this is kind of moot since the claw is thin enough to pass between 2 physical models unless they are amazingly beefy.

Forsakenname wrote:OK so did anyone come up with a definitive yes or no answer to if you can move the arms/ legs during the game? He thinks that people have strengthened his argument by saying that you can move shooting weapons for line of sight reasons. He also is still stuck on the fact that the model is designed to have movable legs ... He's rather stubborn. How does this work in tournaments are you required to have the legs glued or put the defiler on a base?

Tell him about the modeling for the advantage rule in the BRB and ask if he honestly thinks that moving part of your hull isn't covered under that.

Also, as a general rule, the *legs* would probably count as hull, but the claws would not, as a lot of people would not consider them part of the hull.

Also, if a model is completely surrounded in base to base, you can't assault it.

He's wrong thrice depending on who you play with.