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In a recent game my C'tan was completely surrounded (one model deep around the whole model) by a unit of Thousand sons Marines. My Opponent then Assaulted my C'tan with a Defiler by moving it's arms so they touched the C'tan model (the Nightbringer model is huge so it's rather easy to do this with a defiler) ... Is this a legal move? Moving the arms did not bring the unit's total movement for the assault over 6 inches. Is it still legal if there are models in the way? Please site sources / give reasons why it is or isn't legal but opinions are welcome too.

This is 100% illegal, as at least ONE model from the unit has to be in B2B in order to attack that unit. As the defiler is a unit of 1, its legs (or whatever it has), must be in contact with the C'Tan, otherwise he can't.

There are no rules to cite, specifically... it's simply not something that the rules allow you to do.

The only rules that allow you to alter the pose of a model during the game are the rules for vehicles firing ranged weapon.


Edit: Additionally, I'm a little puzzled by the 'touched my unit' bit... If he was completely surrounded, he's unassaultable. Just touching the model isn't sufficient, it has to be in base contact, as per the Assault rules.

I think the problem here is that the defiler doesn't have a base, meaning you measure to the hull. One could argue that the claw is part of the hull...

Which is perfectly fine. The only way for the Defiler to be in close combat is for its legs to be in base contact with an enemy.

But it has to actually be in base contact, and you can't reposition the legs to make that happen without actually moving the Defiler. Swinging a leg up into contact with the enemy model's head doesn't count them as being in combat.

What about the top of the C'Tan base?

If the Defiler reaches over the Thousand Sons, and just touches the top of the C'Tan base, would that be legit?

Again, without moving the models arms to do so this wouldnt happen, and you have no rules allowing you to alter the shape of the model during the game.

Modeling for advantage mid-game? That's a new one on me.

He is completely entitled (imo) to move the arms of his defiler in whatever direction he might like. Unfortunately, much like moving a banner or a set of wings, this has absolutely 0 impact on the game. Assault requires base contact and the Defiler's hull does not include his arms...

nosferatu1001 wrote:Again, without moving the models arms to do so this wouldnt happen, and you have no rules allowing you to alter the shape of the model during the game.

Right.

Assumption: A Defiler was positioned the same way throughout the entire game, and without repositioning, was able to come into contact with the TOP of the base on a model otherwise completely surrounded.

Is this legit?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

calypso2ts wrote:He is completely entitled (imo) to move the arms of his defiler in whatever direction he might like. Unfortunately, much like moving a banner or a set of wings, this has absolutely 0 impact on the game. Assault requires base contact and the Defiler's hull does not include his arms...

I'd say his arms are part of his hull...

Sounds like the best idea would be to discuss what is considered part of the hull before the match starts. Also if you play that the arms are part of the hull, make sure that the arms stay behind the "starting line" in deployment.

Hmm, well. In 'real-life', I guess a defiler could do that if it wanted to..But that is irrelevant.

That's pretty illegal, I think. Was your c'tan outflanked too? It should'nt have been able to assault anyway

let the defliler assault the C'tan lol, it will rip it appart.

OP, if there is no way inti BtB then you cant assault, even if you dont have a base... hmm RAW sillyness entails the Defiler cannot ever assault lol

Grakmar wrote:

I'd say his arms are part of his hull...

Interesting, I never played the arms as part of the hull and I always discuss what part of the legs count as the hull before the game starts. If the arms do count as part of the hull, then changing them mid game is definitely not allowed by the rules and even if you 'could' leave them in their current position still does not enable you to get into b2b, there really isnt a provision for being in contact with the top of the base....

Forsakenname wrote:In a recent game my C'tan was completely surrounded (one model deep around the whole model) by a unit of Thousand sons Marines. My Opponent then Assaulted my C'tan with a Defiler by moving it's arms so they touched the C'tan model (the Nightbringer model is huge so it's rather easy to do this with a defiler) ... Is this a legal move? Moving the arms did not bring the unit's total movement for the assault over 6 inches. Is it still legal if there are models in the way? Please site sources / give reasons why it is or isn't legal but opinions are welcome too.

First, was the defiler in base contact? It sounds like he was just touching the mini. Base contact is required.
Secondly, the only time you can move part of a model is when firing vehicle weapons.

Grakmar wrote:Assumption: A Defiler was positioned the same way throughout the entire game, and without repositioning, was able to come into contact with the TOP of the base on a model otherwise completely surrounded.

Is this legit?

Theoretically, yes. The rules don't specify that you have to contact the edge of the base, just 'base contact'...

However, if the model is completely surrounded, you're still going to have troubles getting the defiler's arm in there without it moving through another model.

I'd say his arms are part of his hull...

The rulebook agrees. Page 72, 'Measuring Ranges'... an unbased walker counts 'legs and other limbs' as hull.

insaniak wrote:Edit: Additionally, I'm a little puzzled by the 'touched my unit' bit... If he was completely surrounded, he's unassaultable. Just touching the model isn't sufficient, it has to be in base contact, as per the Assault rules.

Um...touched his what?

The bizarre shape of the Defiler and Soul Grinder models does allow for a strange situation to occur: If the limbs are angled or elevated in the right way, they could be used to make contact with a vehicle's hull while passing over the top of shorter models. Imagine an enemy rhino surrounded by a single ring of Nurgling bases. A dramatically posed Defiler claw or close combat arm could easily reach the rhino's hull across that distance.

Then there's the old balcony problem: If you have an enemy model's base hanging slightly over the edge of a second floor ruin, a Defiler or Soul Grinder can get into base-to-hull contact from the ground.

Sure, they're marginal situations, but how often do games come down to who gets the third objective and who won the big assault on turn 4?

Well actually there were three defilers assaulting, I figured I would keep it simple for the original question.... and they all touched the model not the base. Isn't touching the model and the base the same thing? Furthermore my opponent argued that the arms are in fact weapons and therefore can be moved, personally a I think the whole thing was rather cheesy. Where in the rules does it state that you can't alter a model during the game? My opponent's other argument was that the defiler legs are intended to be moved around and the legs are part of the hull. In this instance it didn't matter anyway because the 15 str 10 attacks dealt 1 unsaved wound and the game ended that turn.

Forsakenname wrote: Isn't touching the model and the base the same thing?

No. In order to fight in close combat, the assault rules require base contact. Page 35 'Who Can Fight?'... two bullet points, the first being applicable here, as Defilers are single-model units.

Furthermore my opponent argued that the arms are in fact weapons and therefore can be moved

Ask him to show you the rule that allows him to do that.

You're allowed to move ranged weapons to point them at the target when shooting. No such allowance is made for close combat weapons, vehicle or no.

Where in the rules does it state that you can't alter a model during the game?

Same place it states that you can't win the game by pouring a bucket of water on the table and making motorboat noises.

In order to be able to do something, you need a rule telling you that you can do it. Anything the rules don't tell you that you can do is something that is simply not within the scope of the game.

My opponent's other argument was that the defiler legs are intended to be moved around and the legs are part of the hull.

Which is the same argument, really. The fact that the model is made to be configurable in multiple poses doesn't mean that it's intended to be reconfigurable in the middle of the game, any more than the fact that the Space Marine Devastator box coming with multiple weapon options means that you can swap from heavy bolters to multi-meltas mid game.

Show me on the model where the defiler touched you.

The arm is a limb, the torso is the hull, weapons are never hull, legs could be argued to not count as hull, but you need to clarify that with your opponent.

Yet another reason why defilers/soulgrinders should be based.

Surtur wrote:... legs could be argued to not count as hull...

I already provided the reference to the rule that says they do...

This is 100% illegal, multiple models can't occupy the same space on the table.
By that logic, I could make a tower of my Rhino's and drive around! Disembarking would be a problem, though.

Furthermore, if you would be allowed to change the arms/legs on a Defiler during game the Defiler would have unlimited movement trough pivoting, because the center of the model changes.

If he really insists that he can move the arms and that touching the model contitutes the ability to enter HTH just lay your figure down and claim that he jumps out of the way. After all if he can repostion his figures you ahould be able to do the same.

Was their flock on the top of your base?

Technically, it wasn't base to base if your base was flocked as he was touching the flock, and not the base itself. To touch the base he would have to touch the edge of the base, like the thousand sons.

Always flock your bases, people.

Joostuh wrote:This is 100% illegal, multiple models can't occupy the same space on the table.

They're not occupying the same space. That would be physically impossible.

The rules on not moving through the space occupied by another model are there to stop you from 'phasing' models through each other as they move. They have no impact on one model being above another... otherwise movement on different levels in ruins would be impossible.

By that logic, I could make a tower of my Rhino's and drive around! Disembarking would be a problem, though.

Except you would be prevented by the rule that makes other models impassable terrain. So getting the rhinos stacked like that would be problematic.

whocares wrote:Technically, it wasn't base to base if your base was flocked as he was touching the flock, and not the base itself. To touch the base he would have to touch the edge of the base, like the thousand sons.

...unless the edge of the base was painted, in which case he's not touching the edge of the base, he's touching the paint... I don't think we really need to go there. The base is the base, regardless of what you stick to it.

I would have thought the issue of reaching over a model would have been the key to this... If the model reaches over another unit to hit something behind it, then it's 'base' or outline would cover the same space as the model under it.

At least thats how i've always played it.

insaniak wrote:
whocares wrote:
Technically, it wasn't base to base if your base was flocked as he was touching the flock, and not the base itself. To touch the base he would have to touch the edge of the base, like the thousand sons.

...unless the edge of the base was painted, in which case he's not touching the edge of the base, he's touching the paint... I don't think we really need to go there. The base is the base, regardless of what you stick to it.

I'll put my model on a pin head as a base.

Seriphis wrote:I would have thought the issue of reaching over a model would have been the key to this... If the model reaches over another unit to hit something behind it, then it's 'base' or outline would cover the same space as the model under it.

The rules don't prevent you from covering the same area of table real estate. Again, that would veto movement on different floors in ruins. The game is 3D... we're not told to only consider modesl from the top down.

The rules just prevent you from moving through other models.