Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Wow. it sounds a little heated in here but thank you to everyone for the advice. It has been very helpful as well as the fact that its a wonder i've been doing okay with my list's judging from what has been said.

How Many spotters do you have in this army?

Killing two squads of Pathfinders+Skyray= 0 markerlights.

This is a good tactic, but why Piranhas? You can fit 5 other Vehicles ( 3 Devilfish[ 2 pathfinder, one reg] and two Hammerheads [one io,n one rail]) and put seeker missles all over them and have vehicles that aren't bringing more KP (yay drones) and have the seekers on something better defended than a DE Raider.

Iur_tae_mont wrote:
This is a good tactic, but why Piranhas? You can fit 5 other Vehicles ( 3 Devilfish[ 2 pathfinder, one reg] and two Hammerheads [one io,n one rail]) and put seeker missles all over them and have vehicles that aren't bringing more KP (yay drones) and have the seekers on something better defended than a DE Raider.

Amen, +1, bravo, and any other terms that could convey full approval.

The Bringer:

Your analysis of the utility of Seeker Missile is faulty. Specifically it is faulty because you imagine that there is no utility in being able to deliver highly accurate Krak Missile fire in the first few turns of the game, and that you cannot see this as part of a greater strategy, or even several greater strategies.

So yes, it is definitely worth it to get a tank that can shoot six S8 AP3 BS5 shots in the very first turn, while it shoots a unit in front of it with two Burst Cannons or a Smart Missile System, and engage two others with two of its own Markerlights. Alone the Skyray can engage four different units on its own if you're so inclined, and split its fire at up to ten different targets with a little help from Markerlights in the army.

Likewise you don't seem to get that when the Gun Drones dismount from the Pirahna Squadron, they form a single Gun Drone Squadron of 10. Sure, you double the number of victory points that you're "giving away", but you're also gaining a mobile unit with a 10 BS2 re-rolled S5 Pinning shots. If you're going to count this unit as an easy kill-point, maybe you should reconsider how you use Gun Drones.

Finally if winning is not a key point in your strategy, then you're doing it wrong. All of your tactical planning should be directed towards achieving the goal of winning, and if you're going to attempt this goal while following a strategy to avoid losing, then you shouldn't be surprised when you also avoid winning. But that's just basic game theory...



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Iur_tae_mont:

How many spotters? That's an interesting question. I find it weird that you are considering the two units of Pathfinders and the Skyray to be the maximum in the army instead of the minimum. Each Firewarrior unit can take a Markerlight, let alone the Networked Markerlight Drones both Troops and Elites can take. Markerlights pretty much make the Tau.

Likewise with the Seeker Missiles. These are on top of the ones mounted on the Pathfinder's Devilfish, and the Devilfish of any Fire Warriors, or at least six. and any other tanks you have going, such as a pair of Hammerheads...

Clearly the number of spotters and seeker missiles will change depending on what sort of army you slot the Pirahna Squadron and Skyray into. Adding an extra sixteen Seeker Missiles and a fourth Fast Attack unit, maximizes your army's ability to both spread and concentrate force on enemy units.

I'm not saying winning should be part of your strategy, but only being able to win by tabling your opponent is not a good idea.

Also, the gun drones aren't free. They're part of the Piranhas cost, even if they aren't a piranha. Without gun drones, I'm sure piranhas would be cheaper.

That Mobile unit of ten Pinning drones is just a squad of carbine Fire Warriors with Slightly better shooting.


Most people play Mech Armyofyourchoice nowadays so how will paying 30 point for a Shas'ui(per Fire warrior squad) with a markerlight help if the Devilfish doesn't have any Firing Points?

Marker Drones are 30 points per drone. That gets really expensive really quick on every Fire Warrior Squad and every Crisis/Stealthsuit squad, so yes a Skyray and 2-3 squads of Pathfinders are the max amount of Cheap markerlights.

It gets to the point where your army stops being "Tau with Markerlight assistance" and turns into "Markerlights with Tau assistance".

With this large debate about bringing mass amounts of seekers to the table, I have to ask: How many taniks are your opponents using??? I mean, jeez, even if 1/2 your piranhas die, leaving you with 5 missiles, and you only hit tanks with half of those, then you still should have 2-3 dead tanks, in the worst of circumstances! I have never personally played against rhino rush, but that'd be ridiculous!

Just throwing this out there about the Skyray all those missles is good and dandy but they only work IF you hit and IF you wound. Without anyone pulling out math hammer I'm pretty sure we can all agree that there is a chance that you will or will not get the desired effect numbers or not. Look at what happened when I first started using Ions, anything can happen. All of those missles could miss or not even wound and then what?

I don't take the Skyray simply because it has limited ammunition and this is a game where anything can happen so I'd rather have a weapon that can keep firing through out the game wether or not the shots hit or miss vs a weapon that can fire a few times and do alot of damage but that's if things turn out the way you hope.

I think I read on ATT once that the chance of a Seeker Missle hitting was like 42%.

The Bringer:

Actually winning by tabling is a great option so long as it's not the option your opponent chose. But trying to avoid losing by 'giving away' kill points is a losing strategy because it concentrates your forces into units that your opponent can concentrate firepower on. Usually if your opponent has 10 units on an empty table and you have 11, then 1 of your units is not going to get shot at.

The Tau break this rule hard, harder than Long Fangs (who require the Pack Leader to survie and not shoot), or the Land Raider's Power of the Machine Spirit, thanks to Target Locks, Markerlights, and Seeker Missiles. They can engage several units at once with one, which gives them great utility for multi-purposed units. It's actually kind of neat the way the xenos design ethos of specialized units is applied at a strategic or army level while the human design ethos of flexible units is applied at a tactics level.

However, the incoming fire is going to be the same old problem, so if you have eight Tau units on a empty table, facing nine Space Marine units, they may be able to shoot back at all nine, but two of those nine are going to be concentrating fire one target.

This is above and beyond the advantage of sequencing shots, which means that firepower in two units can be more efficiently allocated than firepower in one unit. This is because shooting is resolved in a sequence of units, with each unit its own step in the shooting phase. More likely instead of spreading fire out in a 1:1 pattern, a player will achieve better results by prioritizing targets. This is where where Tau tactics really get interesting. because being able to split fire has the drawback of happening simultaneously. This is further complicated by usually being limited by line of sight, meaning that some Tau firing is going to be limited by line of sight, and some of it isn't.

Having more units means killing all of them is harder than killing fewer units, not simply because of the difficulty in engaging so many targets, but also the over-kill wasted on each target. Consider the Gun Drones and why I might of put 'free' in quotes. Sure, you probably pay for them at par, but suddenly that 400pts of unit has to be shot in sequence rather than occupying the same unit.

That squad of Gun Drones is considerably more than a squad of Carbine-armed Firewarriors with slightly better shooting. They have Jet-Packs, which means you're in a far better position to use that slightly better firepower to its best effect, to deny the enemy a target.

Multiple small units is a winning strategy in 40k for these reasons.

Being able to engage and destroy such armies is why you should take the Pirahna, two Pathfinder Squads, and Skyray combination. It gives you a solid firebase for engaging the enemy on the first turn, a 'free' Fast Attack unit, and up to 20 Seeker Missiles. You can use it to engage up to six different units with the Pirahnas and Gun Drones, four with the Pathfinders and their Devilfishes, and four with the Skyray itself, not including the 20 Seeker Missiles.

If you got this combination with a single unit of Firewarriors and Devilfish, and include two Hammerheads, then you could have 6 more Seeker Missiles, and an extra Markerlight, and potentially 16 more Seeker Missiles.

You know who else can get that many Krak Missiles a turn?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Iur_tae_mont:

If you're counting the Markerlight being on a BS3 model, and hitting on BS5 themselves, but then terrain won't obscure then, so it's pretty much the same as hitting on BS5 and the vehicle getting a Cv4+. Except that the Markerlight markers are spent on Seeker Missiles if they hit, with no cover save since they don't cause wounds.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull:

The Skyray doesn't have to have limited munition, as it can use its own onboard Seeker Missiles for its Networked Markerlights, or other Markerlights can use the Seekers, or it can use Seekers from another unit. Its own reserves are the tip of its iceberg, a cheap source of Seeker Missiles.

Most importantly its Markerlights are unlimited in terms of ammunition, count as defensive and they're Networked, so they can enhance the Skyray's own shooting, that of two other units, and move Markerlights into position if you don't have Markerlight Drones accompanying Jet Packs in the area. Speaking of two other units:

The Seeker Missiles on the Piranhas are particularly nasty because the Pirahna is a Fast Skimmer: Move them 24", get the cover save, and then fire those Seeker Missiles into rear armour from 9' away because Markerlights to their fore hit them, and they have unlimited range. Obscured, no, can't block a line of sight you don't need. Landspeeder Typhoons can't do that.

If 0.42 expected hits isn't sufficient, get a Targeting Array for 0.56. Beats a Long Fang firing his own Krak Missile at an obscured vehicle, for 0.34.

as a chaos player i can say that i loath seekers... grrrrrrr

Good points nurglitch, but I believe the others were trying to point out that the skyray only comes with six seeker missiles.

Nah, I'm just against the Piranhas toting around Seekers.

If I were to go Full Mech, I would use a Skyray over the Broadsides, just because of 6 Seekers+ 2 Markerlights.

Please explain why you oppose Piranhas with seekers. While they are weaker and don't have the markerlights, target lock, secondary weapons, ect. of a sky ray, they also don't occupy a heavy support slot.

Personally I agree with Iur_tae_mont in the fact that why would you give you're piranha's seeker missiles. They are pretty much flying rhino's exept with more of chance of being taken down by the fact that they are open topped and the SA is weaker as well as they are a skimmer and since they are fast you most likely will be moving six they can be taken down by immobilising them. If you hit with a AP one weapon and you then get a pen as well as the fact it moves 6" in the last turn you are killing it on a 2+ if i'm not mistaken. as well as with a glance it's still a 4+. There and then that is those seekers wasted as well as other points and more KP from the drones.

Now i'd also like to point out how this has gone from a Discussion about Vespids, sniper drone teams and Ion cannons to a full fledged debate about tactics with seeker missiles.
I'm not agaisnt this but damn...

hahaha you need to keep trak of ur ap 3 crap

Don't you just love people sitting across from you posting stuff about you when they could just come and say something, aye Tyrannic marta.
Unless that wasn't too me.

Are you guy brothers???

Nurglitch/others:

Back to the rabbit hole, my reason for not liking Skyrays is because you are using a Heavy Support slot on a --- point vehicle that has 6 Str...... Shots. And has two markerlights. Once you get the devilfish in your army, markerlights are cheap anyways.

But what would you use seekers for anyways? It is wasted on heavy infantry, it is wasted on heavy armor. The only thing you can ever hope for super-heavy infantry, heroes, or light tanks everywhere, but 18 seekers will not all find light tanks and heroes. I think 6-8 seeker missiles is quite sufficient.

If they had 16 rhinos. Awesome. If they had 16 War walkers. Awesome. I think 16 seekers is a complete waste on tanks.

I think that at best, seeker missile spam would do well against nids. It would be able to take out the many multi-wound tough models, insta-gibbing some of them, and just ignoring the armor saves of others.


On the original topic, I think it is quite determined that:

Vespids have good guns and are fast, but they are weak.

Sniper drone teams are fragile, but stealth field generator can make them nice, and last out longer.

Ion Cannons rock.


phew, now that that's done, back to the off topic discussion.

If sniper drones were less points, and even had a bit more range, they would be a super unit. Str 6 ap 3 is kill a space marine on a 2+. They arent bad against vehicles, can pen up to AV11, will splatter meq and instagib t3.

were not brothers and yes Evaelc that was for you but i diddnt want to yell across the library and i could be bothered getting of my but

Then again, there aren't many multi-wound T3 models around.

Just because something can pen AV 11 does not mean it should do so. I would make use of their AP against infantry.

If you had a bunch of firewarriors and some AV10, have fun... but I consider rail-rifle shots slightly more valuable. Chances are with a standard unit of them you won't actually get a pen anyways at AV11, not even with AV 10.

true....

Evaelc:

Flying Rhinos that can move 24", get a cover save, and which can fire their Seekers without leaving a line-of-sight blocked position and without regard to how fast they moved. They don't have to expose themselves prior to are while using Seekers. Furthermore they can be deployed so that the Seekers hit the rear armour of the vehicles they're attacking. S8 on AV10-11 is pretty good. You have to keep in mind that while the Seekers are activated by the unit with the Markerlights, they're fired from the vehicle carrying them regardless of distance moved, stunned status, or their other shooting.

The significance of this is that the Skyray's own Networked Markerlights allow it to have two S8 AP3 shots a turn firing as Defensive Weapons, most likely into your rear armour. S10 AP1 is nice, but why use your Railgun on Rhinos? Keep them for the AV14 all around. Pepper the Rhinos with Seeker Missiles from their rears.

That's hitting on 2+, penetrating on 3+.

The Bringer:

Seekers aren't wasted on heavy infantry. A Seeker Missile is ten points (unless brought to the field by a Skyray, in which case you get a discount) and a Space Marine is 15-16 points. If they're a Long Fang, then they're something like 25pts. Plague Marines are 23pts each (if I recall correctly) and won't get a save against Seeker missiles unless they're in area terrain, and won't get Feel No Pain. You bet heavy infantry are worth your while in the absence of plenty of AV12- vehicles.

They're unlimited range out-of-line-of-sight Krak Missiles, the one thing they don't do reliably is anti-horde and penetrate AV14.

Heavily armoured tanks can, as mentioned, be shot in the rear or side from Seeker Missiles mounted on fast moving platforms such as the Piranhas, or simply have weight of fire applied to it if it's the only target: A shaken, stunned, or damaged tank is easier to kill with Fusion Blasters, and an immobile one is easier to catch. In fact the Piranhas can carry the Fusion Blasters if you're so inclined.

So here's a list of the tacticall handy and advantageous things about Seeker Missiles:

1. Don't count towards the weapons fired by the vehicle, so can't be knocked out by Stunned results, or stopped from shooting by moving at a Cruising speed or Flat Out.

2. Activated by Markerlight bearing unit, shot from Seeker Missile carrying unit, allowing Seeker carrying units to move at full speed to the vulnerable rear arc of enemy vehicles or to staging areas outside of line of sight without affecting movement or Seeker Missile reliability.

3. Ignore line of sight, and by extension terrain that obscures vehicles. So fewer cover saves. Intrinsic cover saves can be dealt with using additional Markerlights to up the cover save.

4. Markerlight tokens are expended for Seeker shots, so with BS5 Seeker Ammunition is effectively conserved for when it can hit.

So consider that a parking lot of six Chimeras, two Manticores, and a squadron of Hydra are facing across from you. Send the Piranhas up a flank and out of sight of the Hydras (or even the whole army), accompanied by Devilfish at Cruising speed, and maybe your Hammerheads. Get at Markerlight hit on each vehicle or squadron, using the Skyray to catch any trying to hide (or just the Manticores and Hydras), and then blow off a mess of Seeker Missiles into his AV10 side armour. That's on T1.

That is a mess of seeker missiles, but how many will penetrate?

If you get six piranhas, you will have 5 penetrating hits. On a good day, that is two explodes and one immobilize. That is on two conditions,

1 - That the side armour on all of them is perfectly exposed in the first place, if your opponent see what you got, they may be more careful with their deployment

2 - You actually get enough markerlight hits to deliver all the seeker missiles.

If you get 6 piranhas, that is only 8 pathfinders, and they must target the same unit. If you get a skray, that is two more markerlights and you can split those.

Okay, you can spread your shots at three targets max. Call two markerlights on two seperate targets.

I can see how you value seeing the weaker armor of a tank using seekers, but how-about this:

You deploy two units of three broadsides the opposite corners of your board. You have excellent fire lanes from that view, a very likely chance of hitting, and a even more likely chance of seeing side armor and penetrating.



I'm slightly more convinced of how nasty Seeker Spam can work, but I still prefer my 9 deepstriking crisis suits and my broadsides.

1. Have you seen the side armour on Chimera? Narrow AV12 fronts and long long AV10 flanks and rear, and since Seekers ignore line of sight, they just have to be within those broad side arcs, which isn't hard with Flat out of 24" which doesn't interfere with the firing of the Missiles.

2. Piranhas are five a unit at most. Each can carry two Seeker Missiles. One Piranha unit means you can have two Pathfinder units, which are only a part of the Markerlight resource in your army.

Further, and this is important because you seem to be confused about this, but you determine Seeker shots after rolling for Markerlights, so it's not like you are going to fire eight Seeker Missiles and then role to see how many Marklights will give them a target.

And it's not an "Either/Or" proposition either, as I'm been at pains to explain. You don't have to take two Hammerheads. Take whatever other two Heavy Support choices you want, as the Skyray will make them more reliable at no cost to its own effectiveness.

Of course, Broadsides are easier to put down in close combat and with shooting thanks to T4 Sv3+. Hammerheads are less likely to be murdered by passing Storm Troopers, Sternguard, etc, ad nauseum. But battlesuits suits simply don't have the speed, firepower, or survivability that vehicles, and especially Tau vehicles en mass have.

The Bringer wrote:That is a mess of seeker missiles, but how many will penetrate?

If you get six piranhas, you will have 5 penetrating hits. On a good day, that is two explodes and one immobilize. That is on two conditions,

1 - That the side armour on all of them is perfectly exposed in the first place, if your opponent see what you got, they may be more careful with their deployment

2 - You actually get enough markerlight hits to deliver all the seeker missiles.

If you get 6 piranhas, that is only 8 pathfinders, and they must target the same unit. If you get a skray, that is two more markerlights and you can split those.

Okay, you can spread your shots at three targets max. Call two markerlights on two seperate targets.

I can see how you value seeing the weaker armor of a tank using seekers, but how-about this:

You deploy two units of three broadsides the opposite corners of your board. You have excellent fire lanes from that view, a very likely chance of hitting, and a even more likely chance of seeing side armor and penetrating.



I'm slightly more convinced of how nasty Seeker Spam can work, but I still prefer my 9 deepstriking crisis suits and my broadsides.

This +1

Let's compare some numbers:

We can reasonably expect 4 Markerlight hits from a single Pathfinder unit. That's a four Seeker Missiles per salvo, or two Piranhas.

Hitting in the rear with no cover for obscuring terrain, that's four shots, 2+ to hit, 2 to glance, 3+ to penetrate AV10.

4x(5/6)x(1/6g + 4/6p) = 0.56g+2.22p

Shaken (g=4/12|0.56g)+(p=4/12|2.22p) = 0.1848+0.7326 = 0.92
Stunned (g=2/12|0.56g)+(p=2/12|2.22p) = 0.0933+0.37 = 0.46
Weapon Destroyed = 0.46
Immobilized 2/12 = 0.46
Wrecked 1/12 = 0.23
Explodes 1/12 = 0.23

Notice that overall the expectation of damage is 0.92, and destruction at 0.46 not including the likelihood of wrecking through damage results.

A similar points value of Broadsides will get two Twin-linked S10 AP1 shots at 3+ (Targeting Array makes Broadsides equivalent in points) re-rolled to hit, 1 to glance, 2+ to penetrate AV11, cover 4+.

2x(32/36)x(1/6g + 5/6p)x(3/6) = 0.15g+0.74p

Shaken (g=3/12|0.15g)+(p=3/12|0.74p) = 0.0375+0.195 = 0.22
Stunned (g=2/12|0.15g)+(p=2/12|0.74p) = 0.025+0.123 = 0.15
Weapon Destroyed 0.15
Immobilized = 0.15
Wrecked = 0.15
Explodes = 0.15

So as it turns out, the Seeker Missiles conjured by a Pathfinder squad can expect to be more effective against Rhinos than two Broadsides. Let's not bother with the Chimera, has AV10 is easier to hit, and that has AV12 to the front.

The reason for these results is threefold:

1. Lower side and/or rear armour favour Seekers

2. Seeker Missiles can deny cover saves

3. Four shots is as reliable as two twin-linked shots, and more than twice the potential thanks to a wrecked result after three damage results...

After those four shots have been fired, the next unit of Pathfinders can get its four shots in on a vehicle's rear armour. Finally the Skyray can get its two rear armour shots on separate targets, and either use its Smart Missile System on a third target, or Burst Cannons on third and fourth targets. Meanwhile the Railguns can work on the heavy armour...

I try a bit of both. I have suit that deep strike and i stick seekers all around my army. The only problem ive had with trying this out is my pathfinders getting smoked on turn 1 by infultrating dudes. (he cheated by infultrating after my movement phase). so I am still to try out there efectiveness for myself.

Soo what is your opponent just going to turn all of his vehicles around and let you shoot them in the back? side armor is better but you can't automatically assume you'll hit rear.

Especially since a seeker missle is made in a direct line from the vehicle it was mounted on to the target to determine which side it hits. That's also discounting that your enemy dosen't have something that can destroy your vehicle with the missles like Scouts, Kommandos, LSS etc.

I dont know what Evaelc's got but ive got missiles on all my fishes and hammerheads, so if one gets destroyed, ive still got some to shoot with.