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All this AP 3 weaponry which ones are good to take and why as well as how should I use them.
Advice is really appreciated.

Sniper drones are considered bad, because all you need is to allocate 4 wounds to the squad. If the 1 actual guy with a drone controller dies, then the drones disappear, sadly. Vespids also seem good, but apparently they die quickly. I do not have any experience with them. Ion cannons are a nice alternative the the railgun if you're low on points. Many players will underestimate it because it isn't as strong.

I agree that Vespids are weak. The only time I've ever used them, they got destroyed.

Ion cannons are good. They aren't overpriced, and if you already have enough AP in your army, they are a nice alternative to railguns.

I've never used sniper drone teams, but they are weak. Also, some special units can specify the model they wound, so the sniper drone team could go *poof* quite easily.


Ion cannons can be used for many things. They can be used for taking out walker squadrons as well as just heavy infantry. They will ignore the armor of most Tyranid baddies, and are great for taking down marines, Necrons, and other such units.

I've played a tournament with Sniper Drones 2 weeks ago and really enjoyed them. Didn't meet any marines so I didn't really need the AP3 (allthough it was fun to make the seer council roll their pinning check) but the markerlight and S6 guns are very usable. Having multiple units means you can spread the pinning checks around as well. Also, they don't get shot at a lot after you explain the opponent about the night fighting built in.

Don't bother with sniper drones or vespids unless you're proxying, or really don't care about winning because of a lot of suboptimal choices in the codex these 2 are really bad.

AP 3 on vespids would be good if they could put out double the shots for 2/3 the price AND be better in CC.

The Sniper squads are outshined in every way when compared to broadsides and hammerhead variants.

Ionheads are worth it, sometimes. Personally if I'm taking a hammerhead chassis it's getting a railgun as I'd rather be able to shoot at hordes OR tanks rather than 3 shots that might kill light tanks or infantry. That said, if you feel your AT for heavy army is sufficient and you want to kill some long fangs or something of that nature I know some people have had decent success with them.

Might kill light tanks or infantry???

An ion cannon has more chance of taking out light tanks than the railgun does of doing the same with light or medium tanks.

Ion Cannon (vs. AV 10)

1 pen
1/3 glance

Railgun (vs. AV 10)

2/3 pen
0 glance

Ion Cannon (vs. AV 12)

1/3 pen
1/3 glance

Railgun (vs. AV 12)

4/9 pen
1/9 glance

Ion Cannon (vs. AV 13)

1/3 glance

Railgun (vs. AV 13)

1/3 pen
1/9 glance

You can see the effectiveness threshold dips for the ion cannon at AV 13. If you are expecting a lot of AV 12 or under, go with the Ion cannon. If not, I would go with FB/MP/MT suits. A unit of 3 is 162 points, and this is what you can do:

note on below, every value is given for the all the shots of the unit
also, FB is given within melta-range

FB (vs. AV 10)
35/12 Pen
1/12 Glance

MP (vs. AV 10)
3/2 Pen
1/2 Glance

FB (vs. AV 12)
15/12 Pen
1/12 Glance

MP (vs. AV 12)
1/2 Pen
1/2 Glance

Should I also note that railguns are 35 more points than ion cannons? And, a minimum-cost railhead is only 16 points under the crisis suit unit

Fusion Blasters or Broadsides are much better than Hammerheads for AT. The only reason one should take hammerheads is for the submunission/ or for all the extra stuff like Burst Cannons and actually being a tank.

I tend not to rely too much on railguns in my lists just because I know that Tau can win without having every HS choice be a railgun. As a Tau player I know how usefull they are and every list I make has 3 broadsides with them, but I don't use them as a crutch. They may be the best tank popping gun in the Tau army (and possibly the game) but they aren't the only one.

That being said I'm currently running 2 Ionheads and they've worked pretty well so far. Of course I run a Ninja Tau list that has the 3 Broadsides like I said as well as plenty of other tank popping in terms of Fusion guns then the Ions clean up what spills out alongside my other battlesuits.

So pretty much what everyone else said, Sniper Drones and Vespid aren't worth it and Ions are usefull if you already have enough AP in your army.

Sniper Drones look good on paper, but they are very stationary and one good shot can take out the whole squad.

Vespids are too expensive to need cover as bad as they do. They die like Gaunts out of cover.

Ion Cannons.... On a Hammerhead with a Multitracker, you'd have a threat range of 72 inches (12 inch movement + 60 inch range). The deal breaker (for me) on the Ion Cannon is it's only S7. Like The Bringer said, it does have a Higher chance to take out light tanks then the Railgun, just because of more shots, but you lose the large blast marker shot.

And only Broadsides should fire at tanks.

I am not a fan of the vespids or sniper drones.

Ion Head is in my most of my lists. I usually run Ionhead, 3 Broadsides and a Railhead as my 3 HS.

Iur_tae_mont wrote:Sniper Drones look good on paper, but they are very stationary and one good shot can take out the whole squad.

Vespids are too expensive to need cover as bad as they do. They die like Gaunts out of cover.

Ion Cannons.... On a Hammerhead with a Multitracker, you'd have a threat range of 72 inches (12 inch movement + 60 inch range). The deal breaker (for me) on the Ion Cannon is it's only S7. Like The Bringer said, it does have a Higher chance to take out light tanks then the Railgun, just because of more shots, but you lose the large blast marker shot.

And only Broadsides should fire at tanks.

Broadsides and FB/MP crisis suits.

You can see by the charts I gave above that FB/MP suits can do loads of damage even at higher AV compared to the railguns. But, they still do struggle at AV 14. If you are expecting a lot of heavy armor, broadsides are the only good way to go. Fusion blasters aren't as reliable at that level, unless you have Markerlight support to guarantee a hit.

The Bringer wrote:Might kill light tanks or infantry???

I go with might because the AP3 is mostly wasted at firing against infantry unless they are for some reason important and NOT in cover, I'd rather just go with the large blast. Also against AV 12 str 7 just doesn't cut it unless you're laying out a LOT of shots and 3 shots just doesn't fit that for me in my tau army.

Ion Cannons are cheap and effective for tansport-popping and anti-MEQ. I'm actually surprised more people don't use them.

MekanobSamael wrote:Ion Cannons are cheap and effective for tansport-popping and anti-MEQ. I'm actually surprised more people don't use them.

Its probably because people are so dazzled at a Str 6 Ap 4 Large Blast Template that don't ever notice the ion cannon.

FIne, you've converted me. I will try an Ionhead.


Now this is what I'm really surprised no one has mentioned, one of my favorite weapons in the Tau Codex for Meq killing, the Seeker Missle.

Yes it is 10 points for a one shot deal, but you can take it on any vehicle, it's S8 AP3 ( if the Ion Cannon was S8, I would definatly take it for Meqs) Limitless range, and great if you have any extra Markerlight counters. When I try out the Ion Cannon, I will be using the extra points on 4 Seekers on my Hammerheads.

To be honest when I started playing I tried the Ionhead and it never worked I mean NEVER!!!. In 10 games it hit maybe twice and so I figured it just wasen't ment to be for me and switched it for a railgun.

Then a couple months later I was debating just getting rid of the Ion cannon and give it to someone else but I decided to try using it again and it did great. Been using it ever since.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:To be honest when I started playing I tried the Ionhead and it never worked I mean NEVER!!!. In 10 games it hit maybe twice and so I figured it just wasen't ment to be for me and switched it for a railgun.

Then a couple months later I was debating just getting rid of the Ion cannon and give it to someone else but I decided to try using it again and it did great. Been using it ever since.

Do you know the odds of that happening? With that kind of luck I would have burned my dice, and then cursed their ashes.

That will happen 2.36 * 10 ^ - 35 % of the time.

Meaning, the chances of that are one in 4236000000000000000000000000000000000.


Either way, probability never lies! Considering how many times you hit with the ion cannon, its a miracle that your railguns could do anything at all.

However, its nice to know that you went back to the ion cannons.

Don't forget the effect of Ion Cannons on stuff like squadrons of light vehicles, and Monstrous Creatures. More potential wounds and more reliable wounds.

Although, speaking of Seeker Missiles, something to consider is combining a Skyray with a full squadron of Piranhas. Given each Pirahna a pair of Seeker Missiles, and then split the Drones off on the first turn for a super Gun Drone Squadron of 10 (being 12pts each, that means you get two units for the slot of one, and each Pirahna with two Seeker Missiles will cost essentially 56pts each).

The Skyray has a Target Lock so it can engage two targets a turn with Seeker Missiles. Combine the Piranha squadron with two units of Pathfinders, and that first turn could be pretty fun.

Nurglitch wrote:Don't forget the effect of Ion Cannons on stuff like squadrons of light vehicles, and Monstrous Creatures. More potential wounds and more reliable wounds.

Although, speaking of Seeker Missiles, something to consider is combining a Skyray with a full squadron of Piranhas. Given each Pirahna a pair of Seeker Missiles, and then split the Drones off on the first turn for a super Gun Drone Squadron of 10 (being 12pts each, that means you get two units for the slot of one, and each Pirahna with two Seeker Missiles will cost essentially 56pts each).

The Skyray has a Target Lock so it can engage two targets a turn with Seeker Missiles. Combine the Piranha squadron with two units of Pathfinders, and that first turn could be pretty fun.

Then, the next turn you would realize how screwed you are because you have a KP nightmare, and a Sky-ray with only burst cannons, and a bunch of piranhas that only have burst cannons...

I highly doubt how well this would ever work. Really, just get Crisis battlesuits that can fire the whole game and dish out FB and PR shots. Really, which is more worth it against heavy troops and armor?


OTOH, you could have also destroyed half of their army... ehh.... maybe.

Imo, the Skyray is overpriced. It would be better to incorporate that kind of strategy into your list, rather than create your list about it. For example, you are playing Mech Tau, you have 3 Devilfish for your firewarriors, and you have two hammerheads. Put Seeker Missiles on all of them. There, you have 10 seeker missiles to play with.

Personally, I think ten points is to much for a one-use weapon as good as the seeker missile.

Don't think that that's how all my roles are with my dice. I've never had horrible roles like when I first tried the Ionhead and the dice I was using had never been unlucky (sure I had occasional bad roles but who dosen't). So I figured it was the Ionhead that was unlucky and that's why I dropped it. My railguns did not suffer the same misfortune.

But yes I've gone back to Ions, am using the same dice as I did before and am a a proud sponsor of them.

I'm not a fan of Fusion Blasters on my Crisis Suits(and this will be harder to change on me, since I don't magnetize my suits ). Plasma Rifles may not ID anything worth ID( wait what's Lelith's toughness again, I may want to update that statement when the Dark Eldar come out.) But they hurt MEQs and TEQs(unless they have a Storm Sheild) alike and can do it from a twice the range, and double the shots when the Fusion is finally close enough.

There is never a reason to not take MP however. If you can't hit a Marine with your Plasma, you can still threaten the Razorback they are hiding in with a Missle Pod.

Most Tau I have seen take missile/plasma XV8s so Ion Cannons really double up with missiles on anti light tank. That leaves the only area for the Ion Cannon to shine is anti-Meq and frankly for the cost difference, I would field a hammerhead with rail rifle or 1 or 2 broadsides.

Sniper drone with the hard-to-spot rule can fit a role in the army but my problem would again be using a heavy slot on it instead of broadsides or hammerhead.

Vespids seem to be a good-in-theory anti-MEQ but in reality a points-sink. Don't field unless forced to.

The Bringer:

Firstly, who said that the Skyray and the Pirahnas would be stuck with Burst Cannons? More to the point, who's to say that's a bad thing if now they have lots of infantry targets? If you want insurance, take a few Fusion Blasters: the squadron can engage multiple units better than Crisis suits with a 12" move and fire, and a Target Lock.

Given that the Skyray alone would have six Seeker Missiles, and the Pirahna Squadron would have ten Seeker Missiles, and the Pathfinders could only engage one target each per turn, then I doubt you're going to run out of Seeker Missiles after the first turn. Being able to deliver those Seeker missiles on the first turn while presenting an AV11 face to the enemy is better than waiting till T2 at the earliest for a T4 Sv3+ shot close enough so that the enemy can shoot back. Plus there's the whole combat thing...

Since when did a spare squadron of Gun Drones constitute a "KP nightmare"? This "KP nightmare" you allude to doesn't exist. There's a reason that multiple small units do well, and it's because worries about 'giving away kill-points' are unfounded if you can kill the other guy first.

That's also alot of points into the Seeker Missles though, about 525 if they are completely naked( no Disruption Pod, or anything other than Seeker Missles). In a 2k game, that can get out of control taking 1/4 or better of your army on AV11 Vehicles. And that being a quarter of your army, all your opponent would have to do to neuter that quarter would be kill the Pathfinders or just knock out the Pirahnas.

Now putting them on Devilfish/Hammerheads would be better because they are already in your army, but I dunno about the Pirahnas.

With the new DE (and probley more people useing them) the ion cannons will come in handy against the raiders, but not just DE and lightly armoured vehicals like ork truks as well.

Ion cannons will be useful but so will the large blast from the railhead as it's still str6 and will deny fnp to most things while being able to consistently hit more than 3 out of a unit unless they're in a perfect line 2" apart. If they just dropped out of a raider then odds are you'll put a hurtin on them with the pie plate.

cheapbuster wrote:With the new DE (and probley more people useing them) the ion cannons will come in handy against the raiders, but not just DE and lightly armoured vehicals like ork truks as well.

Missle Pods do the same much cheaper on Suits.

Nurglitch

Let's examine the effectiveness of each unit. Its harder to consider everything on a whole.

Okay, the Skyray. You are getting 6 Str8 AP3 Shots. Unlimited range, and they will most likely hit. Okay, but the skyray is pretty pricy for that many shots. He still has two markerlights to offer when he's done... but he still pretty expensive.

Adding Seekers to piranhas (which I don't really like anyways... but that is another discussion) is cheap, but it requires other pathfinders. That isn't as bad, in fact it could be quite effective.

But, the thing I have the greatest problem with is the Skyray. I think of it as the worst Tau unit, next to an Etherial and Aun'va. I think it is on par or worse than Vespids.

The reasons I would consider Gun Drones a KP Nightmare is because you are giving your opponent as many piranhas as you get worth of easy KPs. My strategy usually is to table my opponent , but it never works out quite like that, does it? You can't put winning the game into a key point of your strategy for winning imo.



Sure FBs and PR require you to be close, but usually you can keep them alive if you are careful with JSJing with them. I've played games where units have JSJd and not been shot at once. Also, I only deepstrike next to units if I am %90 that I can take out any serious threats nearby. For example, it is safe to deepstrike near an isolated Carnifex. If you have two units of FB/PR suits, it is safe to deepstrike next to nobs, as you will most likely kill them all.


Forgive me for any bias I may be incorporating into this. This topic is on three things I've never liked of Tau, Skyrays, Piranhas, and Seeker Missiles.

EDIT - Think of Skyrays like this, is it worth it to get a tank that can effectively fire a S6 AP3 Weapon every turn of the game? Just compare the weapon stats and points of a skyray to that of other tanks, not even in the Tau army, just in general. Do you still consider Skyrays worth it?

Skyray gets 6 S8 AP3 shots ontop of Markerights and Burst cannon/ Smart missle/ Gun Drones.

Iur_tae_mont wrote:Skyray gets 6 S8 AP3 shots ontop of Markerights and Burst cannon/ Smart missle/ Gun Drones.

I was thinking 4 for some reason... whoops.

Iur_tae_mont:

You're forgetting about the Skyray. Also, the 120 'free' points of Gun Drone Squadron really defrays the 400pt cost of having five Pirahnas (considering only the Seeker Missile upgrades of two for each Pirahna). At 280pts that's not much over 1/8 of your 2000pt army. If three of the Seeker Missiles are being fired in the first turn by each unit of Pathfinders, and two by the Skyray, then that leaves four in the Pirahna squadron and four on the Skyray, reader for a turn 2 salvo.

The Skyray can spot for other units while it's on the move and shooting at other units, thanks to a Target Lock, since the networked Marklights are defensive weapons. It can fire its own indigenous missiles, or it can use the Pirahna's. If you kill both units of Pathfinders, and the Skyray, well, congratulations, you still have to kill the rest of the spotters in the army. If you kill the Skyray and the Pirahnas, and remembering that you don't have to expose these units on the first turn because the Seekers don't need line of sight and they can move and fire, so either hiding behind line-of-sight blocking cover or over the board if there isn't any, or maybe just take a Disruption Pod for the Skyray.

Something to remember is that Pathfinders and Firewarriors also carry S5 guns and that Seeker Missiles called in from the team are going to impact on the side of the vehicle facing the vehicle the Seeker was fired from. With no line of sight required, unlimited range, and hitting on BS5 that vehicle is toast. No line of sight required means that the vehicle is never obscured (pending special rules like the Disruption Pod or Smoke Launchers) and so gains no benefit of cover from intervening terrain.