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orkcommander wrote:The kans would get the obscured save because only one model of the unit needs to be within 6" of the KFF for the whole unit to receive the benefit.

Could you - perhaps - explain how that works, using quotes from the rulebook and codex?

striderx wrote:Yup. I got my interpretation above from page 62 and 64.

The 5+ save is available to them, however you ONLY have permission to USE it against WOUNDS.

Page 20/21 defines saves as taken against wounds.

Page 62 tells you that you can take saves against penetrating / glancing hits IF you are obscured (the IF OBSCURED.... clause)

Unless you are obscured, or have a specific special rule, you MAY NOT take your save against hits.

So to summarise: if only 1 in 3 are in range the entire unit gains a 5+ save. which can be taken against wounds only

Orkcommander - that isnt what the rule for KFF states. It requires *each* vehicle to be within 6"

This is the reasoning:

The dex says "Vehicles within 6" inches are treated as being obscured..." p34
p 3 of the BRB "When measuring distances between two units use the closest models..."
Therefore a unit is said to be within 6" of the Big Mek if one kan is 6" away from the Big Mek.
Which means that whole unit gets a cover save.

The KFF doesn't put units in cover (if it did p. 23 might be valid). It gives the unit a cover save or allows the vehicle to be treated as obscured. Which is different. The KFF allows units to use a different method to determine if a unit is in cover.

Also p.64 (right column 2nd to the top paragraph)of the BRB explains how to determine if a unit of vehicles is in cover or not.

It requires *each* vehicle to be within 6" "

It doesn't say each.

Yes are the other two kans vehicle with-in 6"?

What you have done is say vehicls within 6" == units within 6"

Yep. A unit of vehicles are within 6".

Geemoney wrote:This is the reasoning:

The dex says "Vehicles within 6" inches are treated as being obscured..." p34
p 3 of the BRB "When measuring distances between two units use the closest models..."
Therefore a unit is said to be within 6" of the Big Mek if one kan is 6" away from the Big Mek.
Which means that whole unit gets a cover save.

The KFF doesn't put units in cover (if it did p. 23 might be valid). It gives the unit a cover save or allows the vehicle to be treated as obscured. Which is different. The KFF allows units to use a different method to determine if a unit is in cover.

Also p.64 (right column 2nd to the top paragraph)of the BRB explains how to determine if a unit of vehicles is in cover or not.

It requires *each* vehicle to be within 6" "

It doesn't say each.

Spot on, simple RAW.

Geemoney wrote:This is the reasoning:

The dex says "Vehicles within 6" inches are treated as being obscured..." p34
p 3 of the BRB "When measuring distances between two units use the closest models..."

Good thing we aren't measuring to a unit, we're measuring to a vehicle. VEHICLES within 6 inches are treated as being obscured, not units or squadrons. No vehicles that are not within 6" are obscured.
If only one vehicle is within 6", only one vehicle is obscured and the squadron of three gets squat.

It requires *each* vehicle to be within 6" "

It doesn't say each.

Yeah, but it says "Vehicles within 6 inches" which is the same thing, not "Vehicles in units within 6 inches" which you apparently want it to say.

Geemoney wrote:Yep. A unit of vehicles are within 6".

As gorka is pointing out, how does this interact with KFF? That's right they are a unit with-in 6" the gain a 5+ coversave. Which vehicles are with-in 6" they are granted obscurement!

Geemoney - you are told to measure to the vehicles, i.e. the models, and not the unit.

While if one model is within 6" the whole unit is within 6", the logic does not go the other way - you cannot say "every model is within 6"" just because the *unit* is within 6". Basic logical fallacy there (A->B /= B->A)

It also doesnt alter that the rules for COVER SAVES only allow you to make COVER SAVES against WOUNDS. You are given a cover save and, unless you are obscured (or have another rule explicitly allowing it, which KFF does not have) you CANNOT use that cover save against glancing / penetrating hits.

Basic permissive ruleset. YOu have failed to show each model is within 6", therefore if only 1 of 3 is *actually* within 6" only 1 is obscured, this is less than 50% of the unit therefore the unit is not obscured and cannot use the cover save against penetrating or glancing hits.

Your "simple RAW" has at least 2 major flaws which you have not addressed.

nosferatu1001 wrote:The 5+ save is available to them, however you ONLY have permission to USE it against WOUNDS.

Page 20/21 defines saves as taken against wounds.

Page 62 tells you that you can take saves against penetrating / glancing hits IF you are obscured (the IF OBSCURED.... clause)

Unless you are obscured, or have a specific special rule, you MAY NOT take your save against hits.

So to summarise: if only 1 in 3 are in range the entire unit gains a 5+ save. which can be taken against wounds only

Nosferatu, but refer to page 64, which says - Then he takes any cover saves available to the squadron. So since the 5+ was indeed available (although you can only use it on wounds), am I granted permission to use it based on page 64? What I am thinking is that page 64 sort of contradicts or overrules the previous fact about taking only saves on wounds.
Refer to the whole paragraph on page 64 to see what I mean.

Also, you haven't answer my question on the deffrolla vs skimmer. Your RAW?

Hahahha I understand now, your english is letting you down!

The obscurement allows one vehicle to possibly use the 4+, the other two would have a 5+ - these are the save accesable to the individual models.
One needs to look at the squadron as a unit, to determine if it is obscured, that's what "any cover saves available to the squadron" is referring to. If the majority of the squadron is obscured they have a 4+ save, this is the save available to the squadron (there could be others but we'll stick with the likely best one). Each kan does have either a 5+ or an obscured 4+, but in the same fashion to infantry - unless the unit is obscured from the view of the firer, they do not have a save to take as a unit.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
There is no RAW as such for the hits from the deffrolla hitting the skimmer still, it's nice to say no the don't.
As for the next bit "Stops in it's tracks" is raw, you keep moving you've hardly stopped

Striderx - yes, you may "take" any saves available to you - however the cover save available is ONLY a cover save that works against wounds. Meaning you have no "pen/glane hits" cover saves available.

So when you get a penetrating hit you go:

1) I have a cover save available that works against wounds.
2) Did I just suffer a wound? No
3) Damn, then the penetrating hit gets through as I have no permission to use the cover save for wounds against hits.

I have read all of page 64, but it still doesnt state that you can use somethign against wounds on pen/glance hits.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Striderx - yes, you may "take" any saves available to you - however the cover save available is ONLY a cover save that works against wounds. Meaning you have no "pen/glane hits" cover saves available.

So when you get a penetrating hit you go:

1) I have a cover save available that works against wounds.
2) Did I just suffer a wound? No
3) Damn, then the penetrating hit gets through as I have no permission to use the cover save for wounds against hits.

I have read all of page 64, but it still doesnt state that you can use somethign against wounds on pen/glance hits.

All page 64 mentioned is that you may "TAKE" any saves "AVAILABLE" to you etc etc. But to say
"although you have permission to TAKE the save but it doesnt work because this is not a wound"
wouldnt be very convincing.
To differentiate "TAKING a save" from "the taken save working or not" seems to me like a bias interpretation at best. But I can see where you are coming from (your point 1,2,3 are very clear), just feeling that this has room for different interpretation.

ChrisCP wrote:There is no RAW as such for the hits from the deffrolla hitting the skimmer still, it's nice to say no the don't.
As for the next bit "Stops in it's tracks" is raw, you keep moving you've hardly stopped

Then does the skimmer eat the DeffRolla hits?

You have permission to take any save avaialble to the issue at hand.

So the vehicle can take any save that applies to penetrating or glancing hits.

DO you have a save against penetrating or glancing hits available? NO, as you have a save that works against wounds.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You have permission to take any save avaialble to the issue at hand.

So the vehicle can take any save that applies to penetrating or glancing hits.

DO you have a save against penetrating or glancing hits available? NO, as you have a save that works against wounds.

I got that already. Nvm, I think the safer alternative for me is to make sure I clarify with my opponents beforehand.

Do you have an answer to my deffrolla questions?

Deffrolla + skimmer dodge is a whole other mess.

Personally I go for Ram and Deffrolla hits are part of the same thing (no ram occurs if you dodge, therefore how can you do deffrolla hits?) and so avoiding the ram avoids the deffrolla.

striderx wrote:Do you have an answer to my deffrolla questions?

The deffrolla is a poorly worded rule all around that doesn't address quite a few issues.

Does a skimmer dodging avoid the deffrolla?
If you destroy a vehicle with the deffrolla, does your ram continue, or are you stopped?
Do the deffrolla hits take place before, simultaneously, or after the ram hit?
Are the hits from the deffrolla resolved before or after a unit can elect to death or glory?
Is the deffrolla part of the hull?
etc

There have been countless arguments about the deffrolla, but I think the general consistence is that there is no proper RAW way to handle these (although many people feel that they do know the RAW, but it seems no two people agree on exactly what that is)

My advice is to either never take the deffrolla because it causes too many headaches, or to thoroughly discuss these situations with your opponent pre-game.