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The wording of the KFF entry is such:

"A KFF gives all UNITS within 6" of the Mek a cover save of 5+. VEHICLES within 6" count as obscured targets."

So what happens if I have a UNIT of Killa Kans (VEHICLES), and one is within 6" of the KFF and the other two are not. Do the two not in range get a 5+ as they are in a unit which is partly in range or do they not get a save at all seeing as the wording states that vehicles have to be WITHIN the 6" radius to get the 4+ obscured target save?

Thanks.

Highlordell wrote:The wording of the KFF entry is such:

"A KFF gives all UNITS within 6" of the Mek a cover save of 5+. VEHICLES within 6" count as obscured targets."

So what happens if I have a UNIT of Killa Kans (VEHICLES), and one is within 6" of the KFF and the other two are not. Do the two not in range get a 5+ as they are in a unit which is partly in range or do they not get a save at all seeing as the wording states that vehicles have to be WITHIN the 6" radius to get the 4+ obscured target save?

Thanks.

No.

The 5+ save can only be used against wounds, which the Kans do not have. 2/3 kans must be in range for the Kans to benefit at all.

There have been multiple and long threads about this, which I am going to look for now for you.

Edit:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/274199.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/243867.page

As above.

Being obscured is the condition for taking saves against hits instead of wounds. Simply having a 5+ cover save doesnt do anything - as it is defined only against wounds UNLESS you are obscured.

People may argue the other way, but this is the strict rules.

Short answer - the majority needs it (2/3), and vehicles get a 4++ obscured save.

It works like any other test to see if your units get cover: majority. If the majority are not in KFF range you get nothing.

I'm not sure what the "long" threads about this could be jabbering on about

Gwar! wrote:The 5+ save can only be used against wounds, which the Kans do not have. 2/3 kans must be in range for the Kans to benefit at all.

But but what if the kans are obscured behind a 6+ fence!

Magnalon - because they are a unit (1 unit of 3 vehicles) and as such, according to page 3 the entire unit counts as being within 6". So they get a 5+ cover save BUT that cover save only works on wounds. Useless on vehicles.

In order to be obscured it measures to each vehicle, meaning 2/3rd have to be within 6"

Gorkamorka wrote:

Gwar! wrote:2/3 kans must be in range for the Kans to benefit at all.

But but what if the kan is obscured behind a 6+ fence!

Then you have one hell of a solid fence!

nosferatu1001 wrote:
In order to be obscured it measures to each vehicle, meaning 2/3rd have to be within 6"

That's what I said, right? You have to have 2/3rds to get the 4++, or you get nothing?

Okay guys, thanks for clearing this up. I just used 1 being in range and 2 out as an example, and I think your clarification seems fair.

It was mainly becuase I was debating whther I would need to buy another KFF mek to cover 9 Kans in a line.

Thanks.

Magnalon - well,. you DO get a 5++ cover save, just one that doesnt work against hits, as long as you have one model within 6"

You get something, just not a lot of use until your kan sprouts wounds....

Gwar! wrote:The 5+ save can only be used against wounds

But what about invun saves...

General_Chaos wrote:

Gwar! wrote:The 5+ save can only be used against wounds

But what about invun saves...

Same deal.

Invul Saves + Vehicles = Do not work.

Right, Just read a long and VERY boring thread which reilitterates what is said, 2/3 must be in range to get 4+ and 5+ does nothing.

Gwar! wrote:Invul Saves + Vehicles = Do not work.

Well damn so what.. Bjorn and the DE raiders invuls are pointless. I am glad your around to understand these rules better than the people that actually wrote them...

General_Chaos wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Invul Saves + Vehicles = Do not work.

Well damn so what.. Bjorn and the DE raiders invuls are pointless. I am glad your around to understand these rules better than the people that actually wrote them...

It's "you're".

And yes, RaW there are no rules telling you what happens if a vehicle passes an Invulnerable save. There are for covers, but not Invuls.

General_Chaos wrote: Well damn so what.. Bjorn and the DE raiders invuls are pointless. I am glad your around to understand these rules better than the people that actually wrote them...

The idea is that the KFF does not reach the majority of units, and therefore, the unit isn't fully covered. Regardless of whether or not the 5+ actually did work, they would get nothing, because the majority are not in cover - hence, no save.

With things like Flickerfield (5+ for DE vehicles), the intention is clear. They intended for it to be a 5+ obscured save. Disregard the RAW, as most people will waive it so the invuns work.

Gwar! wrote:And yes, RaW there are no rules telling you what happens if a vehicle passes an Invulnerable save. There are for covers, but not Invuls.

That argument was debunked some time ago.

Bjorn's rules tell you that he can take his invulnerable save against glancing and penetrating hits. So you follow the Invulnerable save rules, simply substituting 'glancing or penetrating hit' for and reference to a 'wound'...

Magnalon - the 5+ cover rule doesnt need to reach all models in the unit, as the definition of measuring to a unit tells you only one model needs to be in range for all of the unit to be in range. So they DO get a 5+ cover save, just one that only works against wounds.

Highlordell wrote:2/3 must be in range

I saw this stated multiple times and as professional nitpicker i need to say that it's slightly misleading, in the sense that it doesn't account for other valid ways of acquiring obscurement aside from being in kff range, just stick to the book and say 50% or more needs obscurement.

Yh by 2/3rds i meant at least half of the Kans, and seeing asthey were in units of you can't have 1/2 so 2/3 is the next best option...

Highlordell wrote:Right, Just read a long and VERY boring thread which reilitterates what is said, 2/3 must be in range to get 4+ and 5+ does nothing.

But after reading those long thread, it seems the rules isnt clear. Both sides of the argument just have their own interpretation.
I just it's best to clarify with your opponent before you begin the game.

Well... there is a wrong side and a right side if you belive in RAW...

Striderx - the rule IS clear, as there is only one mention in the rulebook of cover saves working against Hits and not wounds (as they are defined on pages 20/21) and the criteria yoU MUST achieve before you are allowed to take those saves against hits.

Peoples unwillingness to read the rules or understand them doesnt make it unclear.

What happens if a squadron of 3 kans suffer ONE glancing/penetrating hit, but only 1 kan is within 6 inches of the KFF range?
Can I allocate it to the kan with the 4+ cover save? Reference to the rulebook (with page no.) will be appreciated.

If the squadron (under the same scenario) suffers 2 glancing/penetrating hit, what happens then?


Also since I m here, I might as well ask this also. A skimmer dodges a Wagon, does the Deff Rolla still hit? Can the DeffRolla still advance no matter what? There has been mixed response on this, even in tournaments. Are you able to argue using RAW on this?

striderx wrote:What happens if a squadron of 3 kans suffer ONE glancing/penetrating hit, but only 1 kan is within 6 inches of the KFF range?
Can I allocate it to the kan with the 4+ cover save? Reference to the rulebook (with page no.) will be appreciated.

If the squadron (under the same scenario) suffers 2 glancing/penetrating hit, what happens then?

Page 64, Brb
"he takes any cover saves available to the
squadron – use the rules for vehicles to determine if
each squadron member is in cover (ignoring other
members of the squadron, as if they were not there),
and then the rules for normal units to work out if the
entire squadron is in cover or not."

You require at least half the kans in range for the unit to be in cover, otherwise there is no usable save.

They are a squadron so they take cover saves as a unit your unit is not obscured so no dice for you :(

nosferatu1001 mentioned that he agrees the vehicles get a cover save, just that they cannot use it (i.e. 2 of the 3 vehicles are outside of the KFF range, they get the 5+ cover save). Does this mean that cover saves are "available" to the member" (available BUT cannot use it) ?

If that's the case, this fulfils the criteria stated in page 64 - Then he takes any cover saves available to the squadron

No one knows the answer to my 2nd question??? RAW?

Look at page 62 (iirc) and cover for vehicle/obscurement.

Yup. I got my interpretation above from page 62 and 64.

The kans would get the obscured save because only one model of the unit needs to be within 6" of the KFF for the whole unit to receive the benefit.