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Yeah, I'm not reading three lectures.

But anyone who says "nuclear fallout != a big deal" is deluded.

Nuclear weapons, even the most "clean" ones cause damage to the environment.

The Imperium would not be using "clean" tactical nuclear weapons. That defeats the whole purpose of deploying nuclear weapons in the first place.

Chaos/traitor/renegades/heretic monkeys wouldn't be using "clean" tactical nukes either, simply because they don't give a flying feth about a planet since it's probably going to end up corrupted by daemonic forces anyways.

Agreed Kanluwen...nuclear fallout is caused by a ground detonation scouring out huge amounts of dirt and other crap, flinging it into the high atmosphere, where bits of undetonated nuclear material attach to said debris and it settles back down.

If you don't use ground bursts, there's not much fall out. If you have efficient enough bombs, there's not much fall out. I'm fairly sure the Imperium has the latter.

More importantly, Chernobyl has shown that even with radiation spread everywhere, it's going to be a mere 20 years or so before people can live there again, and the Imperium might rush it faster.

And yes, purple food. It's not a nuclear explo--excuse me geek hat coming on--initiation. It's a steam explosion. A freaking huge, radioactive steam explosion, but nowhere near a nuclear initiation in destructive power.

The imperium has better weapons that nuclear weapons trust me.

Maybe they just can't be arsed.
They're in space so they use something a bit more 'spacey' something a bit more flashy somthing with a bit more jazz something like a giant space lazer.
Maybe they have nukes everywhere but make a conscious effort to try and use the spacey weapons instead.

And after typing all that i have just remembered reading a small story in a codex (I think) where an imperial guard garrison of a fortress are about to be overrun CSM and so detonate their nuclear stockpile, which, must have been considerable since it blew a chunk out of the entire planet the pieces of which wrecked most of the CSM fleet.

Kanluwen, it's not 3 lectures. It's 3 webpages probably shorter than this thread individually that use the labels 101, 102, and 103 as a convenient framing device. THey really are a very interesting read, and given who the author is....I'm inclined to believe them.

Kanluwen wrote:...
The Imperium would not be using "clean" tactical nuclear weapons. That defeats the whole purpose of deploying nuclear weapons in the first place.

No you see that big freaking fireball of molten death caused by an airburst is why you use nuclear weapons. Not because it might hurt the native sealions and baby deer. For long term enviromental effects we have toxic waste now that would destroy an entire ecology; weaonizing that is as easy as putting it in a jar and dropping it onto Bambies head.

ComputerGeek01 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:...
The Imperium would not be using "clean" tactical nuclear weapons. That defeats the whole purpose of deploying nuclear weapons in the first place.

No you see that big freaking fireball of molten death caused by an airburst is why you use nuclear weapons. Not because it might hurt the native sealions and baby deer. For long term enviromental effects we have toxic waste now that would destroy an entire ecology; weaonizing that is as easy as putting it in a jar and dropping it onto Bambies head.

To be fair when the IoM blow something up they have so many ways of doing it the way they choose is probably symbolic.
In this cases "Shooting nukes at Krieg" They wanted to make sure no matter how long that planet was populated people would remember what they did and what caused it.

There's a term I want you guys who say "OMG fallout is bad! Oh noooossss!" to look up when you get a chance. It's "Half-Life" no not the video game, even though that was a masterpiece, the term as it applies to chemistry and physics.

ComputerGeek01 wrote:There's a term I want you guys who say "OMG fallout is bad! Oh noooossss!" to look up when you get a chance. It's "Half-Life" no not the video game, even though that was a masterpiece, the term as it applies to chemistry and physics.

I hated that part of physics...
Something about the radiation changing after it's half-life has expired i really wasn't paying attention.
Iirc
Alpha radiation stuff lasts for a short time and then turns into
Beta radiation stuff which lasts longer then that turns into
Gamma radiation stuff which lasts for ages.
And also Alpha and Beta have reletively low danger despite their high energy because they have very low penetration while Gamma is dangerous since it has high penetration albeit low energy.

Notelease excuse any mistakes it was 3 years ago.

@Purplefood: Mistakes forgiven. I don't think that the types of radiation turn into eachother but you're spot on about the danger levels and the penetration.

The half-life if an element is the time it takes for half of it's mass to decay into another element, so the small amounts of nuclear fuel left after a blast do eventually turn into something else. It can take a long time but for a race that has worshiped the same guy for 40,000 years after he died it's a drop in the bucket.

Kanluwen wrote:Yeah, I'm not reading three lectures.

But anyone who says "nuclear fallout != a big deal" is deluded.

Nuclear weapons, even the most "clean" ones cause damage to the environment.

The Imperium would not be using "clean" tactical nuclear weapons. That defeats the whole purpose of deploying nuclear weapons in the first place.

Chaos/traitor/renegades/heretic monkeys wouldn't be using "clean" tactical nukes either, simply because they don't give a flying feth about a planet since it's probably going to end up corrupted by daemonic forces anyways.

and you add to this that in the fluff the only use of nuclear weapons led to massive fallout, so that part of chrisww11 point falls (real world science is trumped by sci-fi fluff), irradiating a world, when every world has a use to the IoM makes no sense.

ChrisWWII wrote:
More importantly, Chernobyl has shown that even with radiation spread everywhere, it's going to be a mere 20 years or so before people can live there again, and the Imperium might rush it faster.

Well in the time that's gone since Chernobyl its certainly gotten (sort of ) safer to be in the area to the point people do guided tours. But people are still dying in the exclusion zone as a direct result of that incident and having grown up there. Plus the red forest is ridiculously radioactive still. With it likely going to be taking decades still for it to get anything resembling safe.

Derail over!

It's more efficient to use clean nuclear weapons for ANYONE namely because you get more nuke out of the same amount of fissile material. Of course, the Imperium with its 2 kilometer high eagles made out of solid gold mounted everywhere could potentially not care for the concept known as 'efficiency'......

But I still hold that after 38,000 years of development nukes WOULD be clean just because of ancient technological developments that the tech-priests wouldn't want to take out. Yes, there's a certain poetic thing to purging your world with atomic fire, but I still hold that nukes are likely 3rd tier weapons at best compared to some of the nastier things the Imperials have.

Besides, I can't imagine an orbital lance barrage somehow having a not as bad effect on the environment than nuclear weapons, especially nukes as employed to destroy cities. In fact, if you were to read the 103 article I posted earlier (which deals specifically with living in a post-nuclear world) you would see that, very clearly, nuclear warfare does not render a world 'uninhabitable' or 'dead'. I can't hope to go into that level of detail here...but just take a read. Really puts nukes into perspective. They're much more complicated than: 'OMGZ NUKES KILL EVERYTHING!!!111!'

Edit: And knowing the Imperium do you think they're going to care that a few people get sick and die from the radiation? No. They're going to keep sending people in as soon as it's not instantly lethal. The post-nuclear war article posted above gives an estimate of about 5~6 years before a site suffering from groundburst levels of fallout (the worst kind) becomes 'habitable' again.

They use fusion warheads in Hellfire torpedoes which have official yield of 560 gigatons(112 warheads).
Besides they have more powerful weapons than nukes like lances or bombardment cannons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ChrisWWII wrote:It's more efficient to use clean nuclear weapons for ANYONE namely because you get more nuke out of the same amount of fissile material. Of course, the Imperium with its 2 kilometer high eagles made out of solid gold mounted everywhere could potentially not care for the concept known as 'efficiency'......

But I still hold that after 38,000 years of development nukes WOULD be clean just because of ancient technological developments that the tech-priests wouldn't want to take out. Yes, there's a certain poetic thing to purging your world with atomic fire, but I still hold that nukes are likely 3rd tier weapons at best compared to some of the nastier things the Imperials have.

Besides, I can't imagine an orbital lance barrage somehow having a not as bad effect on the environment than nuclear weapons, especially nukes as employed to destroy cities. In fact, if you were to read the 103 article I posted earlier (which deals specifically with living in a post-nuclear world) you would see that, very clearly, nuclear warfare does not render a world 'uninhabitable' or 'dead'. I can't hope to go into that level of detail here...but just take a read. Really puts nukes into perspective. They're much more complicated than: 'OMGZ NUKES KILL EVERYTHING!!!111!'

Everything ornamental like those 2km eagles have weapons on them.

ChrisWWII wrote:It's more efficient to use clean nuclear weapons for ANYONE namely because you get more nuke out of the same amount of fissile material. Of course, the Imperium with its 2 kilometer high eagles made out of solid gold mounted everywhere could potentially not care for the concept known as 'efficiency'......

But I still hold that after 38,000 years of development nukes WOULD be clean just because of ancient technological developments that the tech-priests wouldn't want to take out. Yes, there's a certain poetic thing to purging your world with atomic fire, but I still hold that nukes are likely 3rd tier weapons at best compared to some of the nastier things the Imperials have.

Besides, I can't imagine an orbital lance barrage somehow having a not as bad effect on the environment than nuclear weapons, especially nukes as employed to destroy cities. In fact, if you were to read the 103 article I posted earlier (which deals specifically with living in a post-nuclear world) you would see that, very clearly, nuclear warfare does not render a world 'uninhabitable' or 'dead'. I can't hope to go into that level of detail here...but just take a read. Really puts nukes into perspective. They're much more complicated than: 'OMGZ NUKES KILL EVERYTHING!!!111!'

Edit: And knowing the Imperium do you think they're going to care that a few people get sick and die from the radiation? No. They're going to keep sending people in as soon as it's not instantly lethal. The post-nuclear war article posted above gives an estimate of about 5~6 years before a site suffering from groundburst levels of fallout (the worst kind) becomes 'habitable' again.

I cant imagine what world war three will be fought with but world war four will be fought with rocks and clubs.

The Night Lords still use nuclear weapons as tools of terror.
The example is the assault on Grendel´s World.
In the first stage they observe the planet from orbit.They identify communication centers and such things.
In the second stage they detonate nuclear weapons over uninhabitated areas. This has two effect. First the detonation throw enought dust into the atmosphere to engulf the whole planet into a stage of an everlasting night. And second effect is the nuclear winter.
In the third stage they floot the communication network with endless screams of their victims. This causes more terror and prevent a coordinated defense.
When the radioactivity shows first effect (loss of hair and teeths, weakening of the skin´s connective tissue) the NL starts with their "sport".
During the attack on Grendel´s World 14% of the dead had shown not a single scratch, they had died only out of fear.

It's NUCLEAR

ChrisWWII wrote:Besides, I can't imagine an orbital lance barrage somehow having a not as bad effect on the environment than nuclear weapons, especially nukes as employed to destroy cities. In fact, if you were to read the 103 article I posted earlier (which deals specifically with living in a post-nuclear world) you would see that, very clearly, nuclear warfare does not render a world 'uninhabitable' or 'dead'. I can't hope to go into that level of detail here...but just take a read. Really puts nukes into perspective. They're much more complicated than: 'OMGZ NUKES KILL EVERYTHING!!!111!'

Real world science and fact is trumpted by established science fiction fluff (it doesn't matter if the writer had no real knowledge of the effects of nuclear weapons outside of pop cultural references)

'Krieg was reduced to such a hellish, barren and toxic planet it is now classified as a death world. The environmental conditions forces the population to wear air filtration systems to avoid being killed by the toxic atmosphere.'

In the 40k universe this is what a nuclear war ends in, the IoM don't care about single human lives but they do care about assets, they wouldn't use nuclear weapons on agri worlds or other useful worlds.

Due to the tech levels of different planets anything can happen. The imperium has weapons which can cause the same (or more) devastation than a nuke without fallout, so are rarely (if ever) used on planets. However in space, I think their pretty commonplace in torpedoes and weapons batteries.

ComputerGeek01 wrote:@Purplefood: Mistakes forgiven. I don't think that the types of radiation turn into eachother but you're spot on about the danger levels and the penetration.

The half-life if an element is the time it takes for half of it's mass to decay into another element, so the small amounts of nuclear fuel left after a blast do eventually turn into something else. It can take a long time but for a race that has worshiped the same guy for 40,000 years after he died it's a drop in the bucket.

When i said turn into what i mean was when the half-life is over the element that is there usually emits a different type of radiation and it normall goes from Alpha to Beta to Gamma but in my head explainations get mixed up a lot.

the Impierium definitly uses nukes.

anyone who has read any of the HH books will remember they refer to "atomics" quite often as being the standard armament in Torpedoes.



they don't use them in ground based warfare much(outside of an orbital bombardment) because there are weapons that cause just as much destruction.


Atomics were outlawed for ground forces because of the radiation left behind. for space armaments it's a different matter as a Atomic blast in space, which has a ton of radiation flying around already, isn't a big deal.

IIRC, in the HH book Descent of Angels, the Saroshi tried to use a nuke to destroy the Lion El'Jonson and the Dark Angels leadership.

ClosetRoller wrote:IIRC, in the HH book Descent of Angels, the Saroshi tried to use a nuke to destroy the Lion El'Jonson and the Dark Angels leadership.

100% correct

So,really? the imperium can:
virus bomb a hive world,kill about 10 billion
FLIPPIN EXTERMANITUS a world (

but they cant drop a nuculear warhead?

FUUUUDGE! wrote:So,really? the imperium can:
virus bomb a hive world,kill about 10 billion
FLIPPIN EXTERMANITUS a world (

but they cant drop a nuculear warhead?

If you had read the rest of this thread you would realise that they can but they don't because they have bigger and nastier weapons to use.

FUUUUDGE! wrote:So,really? the imperium can:
virus bomb a hive world,kill about 10 billion
FLIPPIN EXTERMANITUS a world (

but they cant drop a nuculear warhead?

They can. But they have much more suitable weapons that dont seem to leave the place quite as uninhabitable afterwards.

Lexx wrote:

FUUUUDGE! wrote:So,really? the imperium can:
virus bomb a hive world,kill about 10 billion
FLIPPIN EXTERMANITUS a world (

but they cant drop a nuculear warhead?

They can. But they have much more suitable weapons that dont seem to leave the place quite as uninhabitable afterwards.

Orbital bombardment with Mass Drivers and Lances comes to mind.

From the IG codex, p49.

Eradicator Nova Cannon. Eradicator nova cannons fire shells with an unstable sub-atomic charge at their core.

Depending on the definition of 'sub-atomic' (Can be defined as 'smaller than atomic' or 'releases subatomic particles'.) this could possibly be some kind of limited nuclear device?
A sub-atomic shell along the lines of a neutron bomb (also known as an enhanced radiation warhead), is a specialized type of small thermonuclear weapon that produces minimal blast and heat but which releases large amounts of lethal radiation. A neutron bomb delivers blast and heat effects that are confined to an area of only a few hundred yards in radius, but within a somewhat larger area it throws off a massive wave of neutron and gamma radiation, which can penetrate steel tank armour or several feet of earth. This radiation is extremely destructive to living tissue. Because of its very short-range destructiveness and the absence of any long-range effect, neutron bombs are highly effective against tank and infantry formations on the battlefield but do not endanger cities or other population centres close by. In real life small, limited yield devices can be delivered by 8-inch (200-millimetre) howitzers.

It would certainly explain the lack of a cover save....!

yeah, one nice thing about neutron bombs(IIRC) is that the leftover radiation is minimal. the "Dirty" aspect of Nuclear bombs is the un-fissioned Uranium, Plutonium... that gets embedded in the local area after the blast. a 100%(or nearly) explosion is more violent in the explosion, but after that the radiation is, relativly speaking, significantly lower.

i could be wrong

Technically fall out is bits of earth that the bomb blows high up that picks up any undetonated pieces of radioactive material, so yeah....a cleaner bomb is actually stronger than an unclean one, and leaves the area clearer.

Of course, you can avoid most fallout by just not using groundbursts.