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Ztryder wrote:why would you get 2 attacks? the rule says that any incubi that rolls a six to wound gets one extra attack.

do 3 lictors give you +3 to reserve rolls?

the point is irrelevant anyway and we are getting off topic. it would be a waste of points to take a klaivex in the unit with drazhar. if not a waste then it is most certainly overkill to where it is no longer beneficial.

Because you roll a 6 and then the one source has a rule that gives you and exstra attack, and then another source has a rule that gives you an exstra attack. Should work fine.

Niiai wrote:

Ztryder wrote:why would you get 2 attacks? the rule says that any incubi that rolls a six to wound gets one extra attack.

do 3 lictors give you +3 to reserve rolls?

the point is irrelevant anyway and we are getting off topic. it would be a waste of points to take a klaivex in the unit with drazhar. if not a waste then it is most certainly overkill to where it is no longer beneficial.

Because you roll a 6 and then the one source has a rule that gives you and exstra attack, and then another source has a rule that gives you an exstra attack. Should work fine.

By that reasoning a brood of 3 lictors gives you +3 to reserve rolls.

One attack. It is an absolute waste to take a klaivex with Drazhar. Thats all it boils down to.

Eternal, there is a HUGE difference between heavy bolters and lazcannons at TDA, and Drazhar or Lelith at a marine unit. On average Drazhar kills more marines, but his cap for total kills is much lower than Leliths.

Ztryder wrote:

Niiai wrote:

Ztryder wrote:why would you get 2 attacks? the rule says that any incubi that rolls a six to wound gets one extra attack.

do 3 lictors give you +3 to reserve rolls?

the point is irrelevant anyway and we are getting off topic. it would be a waste of points to take a klaivex in the unit with drazhar. if not a waste then it is most certainly overkill to where it is no longer beneficial.

Because you roll a 6 and then the one source has a rule that gives you and exstra attack, and then another source has a rule that gives you an exstra attack. Should work fine.

By that reasoning a brood of 3 lictors gives you +3 to reserve rolls.

One attack. It is an absolute waste to take a klaivex with Drazhar. Thats all it boils down to.

Eternal, there is a HUGE difference between heavy bolters and lazcannons at TDA, and Drazhar or Lelith at a marine unit. On average Drazhar kills more marines, but his cap for total kills is much lower than Leliths.

Actualy I do not think so, I might be wrong though. The Lictor entry says that if a lictor is on the table [bla bla bla] you get to add 1 to your reserves. It refers to one lictor, as in eather yes or eather no. It does not say each lictor, or squad of lictor, only if you have a lictor yes or no.

The wording oin the onslaught is diferent, but knowing Gw it could really go both ways. Or a 3rd way nobody saw coming. :p The Lictor rule is like a global check. Eather a lictor (or death leaper thanks to the erata/FAQ) is on the table or it is not. This unit abilaty says that if you roll a 6 you get an ekstra attack. But the wording seems to not rule out the posebilaty of 2 triggers.

Drazhar is obviously more expensive than Archon is but you have to take into account that he has both klaivex powers. If you add the cost of tooled klaivex (45-75 depending on load out) to the price of Archon the point costs get much closer if both HQs are wielded in Incubi squad.

Drazhar also has str 6 from the go which allows early vehicle popping. Archon needs to rely on either Soul Trap, which is painfully hard to utilize, or Blast Pistol and Haywire Grenades, a combo which only gives 2 shots against vehicle in charge.

Aetherse wrote:Drazhar is obviously more expensive than Archon is but you have to take into account that he has both klaivex powers. If you add the cost of tooled klaivex (45-65 depending on load out) to the price of Archon the point costs get much closer if both HQs are wielded in Incubi squad.

The same point i made in my original post (you save 60 points essentially)

The onslaught rule says that any to wound roll of 6 immediately allows that model to make AN additional attack (as in one).
My understanding of the rule is that it is conferred to the entire squad once, not once per Klaivex/Drazhar.

Even if GW FAQs it to 2 attacks, is it really worth the points to take the klaivex if you already have Drazhar?

The onslaught rule says that any to wound roll of 6 immediately allows that model to make AN additional attack (as in one).
My understanding of the rule is that it is conferred to the entire squad once, not once per Klaivex/Drazhar.

Even if GW FAQs it to 2 attacks, is it really worth the points to take the klaivex if you already have Drazhar?

If you want to wield Drazhar you should maximize his point advantage over Archon so taking Klaivex in Venom sized squad doesn't seem very good. It all boils down if you are ready to spend over 400 point in a 5-man squad with a transport.

Aetherse wrote:

The onslaught rule says that any to wound roll of 6 immediately allows that model to make AN additional attack (as in one).
My understanding of the rule is that it is conferred to the entire squad once, not once per Klaivex/Drazhar.

Even if GW FAQs it to 2 attacks, is it really worth the points to take the klaivex if you already have Drazhar?

If you want to wield Drazhar you should maximize his point advantage over Archon so taking Klaivex in Venom sized squad doesn't seem very good. It all boils down if you are ready to spend over 400 point in a 5-man squad with a transport.

It was rhetorical obviously taking the klaivex is not cost effective.

I think in competitive environments i would be more inclined to go with Duke or Malys, but in casual gaming i think i will be playing Drazhar a lot. Much more fun.

Stormrider wrote:If in a 2000pt battle, take Drazhar. Drazhar is not only absolutely devastating in CQC (against everything), as soon as his squad is done butchering whatever they are attacking, they'll all have FNP on top of fearless. He also gets Preferred Enemy against IC's through Muderous Assault. He gets free bonus attacks for getting 6's to save and wound.

Yeah, seriously.

If any of you guys think that big units of Incubi are bad ideas because they cause *too* much damage and become liabilities in the next shooting phase, I don't think you really understand how resilient 3+(4+) is even on toughness 3. Bolters don't down Incubi at that point. Anti-tank weapons do.

And who is single charging 9 Incubi + Character into one unit? You pick on two, so you neatly win combat at the end of your opponents turn. This is all basic DE stuff that has never changed, regardless of new book or not.

If i was sitting across the table from someone using 9 incubi and drazhar i would do everything i could to prevent multi-charges.

That is why i would run 2 smaller units, and in situations where a large unit is needed, double charge with both units and go to town.

Huge problem with Drazhar: He can't take the Phantasm Grenade Launcher. Incubi don't have grenades. Have fun killing people who stand out in the open, but a quality opponent will force you to charge into cover or not charge at all.

It's not like a klaivex can take a phantasm, and on the Archon you are looking at a whole lot of points when you add the Grenade launcher to the mix. For the archon to match drazhars combat prowess, you are talking 165-190pts. The grenade launcher is a nice addition, but not the straw that breaks the camels back

Uh, but the comparison for this thread is Drazhar v. tooled Archon. I'm saying the Archon's better because he can take the Launcher. Even with it he's not gonna cost 230 points.

Drazhar's effective cost is 170, as you arent paying for a klaivex for whatever unit he is going to join.

Saying that the Archon is better solely because of the grenade launcher option is crazy.

Situationaly yes, the Archon charging into cover is obviously going to be at an advantage, but over all i still think Drazhar is better. Just because you are striking first in cover does not prevent the PF in the unit from squashing the archon.

Why would you take a klaivex in an incubi squad accompanied by an Archon?

Just don't put your Archon in base contact with the PF dude. You're charging, probably from a Raider or Venom, and you have Fleet. You don't need a fancy rule to get your Archon where you want him.

If you really don't want to take any chances, give him a Clone Field.

Finally, you're right that needing grenades is merely situational. Of course, that situation occurs nearly every game...

Why wouldnt you take a klaivex with any incubi unit not led by Drazhar?

Archons cant have both Clone Field and Shadowfield, and the Clone Field actually makes it easier to one-shot him (since he will at best only have a 6+ invulnerable save without Shadowfield)

You wouldn't take a Klaivex because it's expensive and doesn't give you that much for 60 points. 1 extra attack at +1 S, plus 1 extra attack per 3 Incubi on the charge (per 4.5 Incubi not charging). Murderous assault is extremely situational. I'd rather just have 3 more Incubi, or a Venom or something.

The only time I'd take a Klaivex is if the squad were at max (or 9 with an Archon), but I still wanted more hitting power. Which is to say, never.

Actually, if the PF guy has 2 attacks, the Clone field's about twice as good, even without the Ghostplate. you have a ~6.9% chance of dying with the Clone field and a ~14.6% chance of dying with the Shadow field.

You are assuming that nothing else has attacked the archon (with his 4+ armor save) and either used up charges on the field or put wounds on him already in that combat

Not taking the Klaivex is like saying well i dont need a Howling Banshee Exarch or a Nob. Drazhar is effectively the Nob/Exarch of the Incubi unit (which not to mention he makes Fearless). While the Klaivex does not make them fearless, they are certainly worth the points when it comes to the Demiklaives and Onslaught.

When i mention that Drazhar is in effect worth 170, its because he essentially gives you a "free" klaivex with all the upgrades, which is 60pts.

This is getting beyond the whole archon/drazhar thing now. What puts drazhar over the edge is the fact that hes got EW, hes t4 and s4, and he makes the unit fearless. And he can avoid PFs/Klaws/etc.

The archon can have 2 great peices of wargear, but when they fail him once, hes going down. Drazhar has 3 "lives" where-as the archon has 2 as best.

I still won't touch a Non mounstrous character for >200