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As i read through the DE codex, i find myself wanting to justify using a 230pt Drazhar.. He is undoubtedly a combat monster but for 50pts less you can get an archon that decimates ICs just as well as drazhar can. For the archon we assume shadowfield, huskblade, soultrap, ghostplate, and drugs. In 2000+ pt games i see drazhar being worth it for sure and almost a must have at 'Ard Boys level (unless you are running Vect/Malys or Duke/Malys), the question is in the "GT" level of pts (1750-1850) is pouring 230 into an HQ without an invulnerable save smart? As i keep trying to find excuses to use him, it all comes back to the fact that he doesn't have the invulnerable save.

Sure he's got a 2+ but anything that manages to get attacks against him is going to ignore that. To me it seems like wolf lords will eat him for lunch without any invulnerable save, he's got a lot of attacks, and he is banking on killing whatever nastyness is coming after him before it gets to swing. Yet as i write that last statement i am forgetting what is probably drazhars biggest advantage to his survivability: he can jump away from anything that has a chance to put a real good hurt on him and he can leave the IC killing to his incubi forcing a bunch of invulnerable saves.

The 3 main things that i am drawn to are this: First, he is toughness 4. Which may not seem like a big deal but its going to mitigate a lot of wounds coming his way from str 4 power weapons (like a chaplain/librarian etc). Second he is a 3 wound eternal warrior, which i imagine factored in as a major role when they priced him. He is the only HQ in the whole codex that doesn't get squashed by hidden PFs the fact that he can jump away from the likes of uber wolf lords and other notable killing machine ICs only adds to the benefits of EW. Thirdly, for his points you can essentially "subtract" 60 pts, as any incubi unit he joins will not be needing a Klaivex. He basically functions as the units klaivex with the boosting powers and having the demiklaives etcetc. So, when you factor that in, drazhar weighs in at an effective cost of 170. It almost seems like he is beginning to be worth it.

Comparing him to an archon, at toughness 3 without eternal warrior, and weighing in at 150-185 to be drazhars equivalent in combat, i am starting to think that drazhar might just be the way to go after all. Then i begin to think of how that kitted out archon gets infinitely more nasty once he kills an IC/MC, and i remember the 2+ invulnerable save, and i remember that the archon is still going to be 50 points less.

He can only join incubi.. that being said he cant hide anywhere and his squad will be around 500 points with no raider.... no thanks.

drazhar with 4 incubi in a venom is plenty enough. drazhar and 9 incubi are far too deadly to put into assault against any one unit.. they are going to decimate all but the most resilient of assault units (TH/SS termies, Crushers within the Kairos bubble, etc) and then they will be open to getting shot at in the enemies turn. 5 or 6 with drazhar in a raider might be more cost effective than the venom squad. the fact that he can jump around combats will increase his survivability.

your arguement about not being able to "hide" is almost irrelevent. archons cant hide, and they are subject to ID. a guardsman with a PF can squash an archon.

im not talking about the advantages of a drazhar army vs all other DE HQs. im talking strictly about taking drazhar over the huskblade/soul trap Archon

you are giving an archon a unit of incubi with a kalivex. there is no reason to go with a court unit unless you are dead set on 3 trueborn units.

theblessing8386 wrote:He can only join incubi.. that being said he cant hide anywhere and his squad will be around 500 points with no raider.... no thanks.

9+ him would be 428, that's 13 points more than I pay for my 10 man nob

EDIT: I agree a smaller squad would be best, there's a point when it's *too* much melee strength.

As far as an archon vs drahzar, the lack of an invuln is a bit scary. Granted, the shadowfield will only last as long as it doesn't fail, so once a wound does get through, he'll be toast.

greenbay924 wrote:

theblessing8386 wrote:He can only join incubi.. that being said he cant hide anywhere and his squad will be around 500 points with no raider.... no thanks.

9+ him would be 428, that's 13 points more than I pay for my 10 man nob squad before battlewagon. For a unit that gets a 3+ save stock, chance for FNP, FC, Fearless, has fleet, higher initiative than space marines, oh and everything is power weapon attacks? I don't see how that's exactly "too expensive."

PS - the squad is around 500 points WITH a raider. (508 w/ FF and NS)

with how incredibly easy it is for haemonculi to pass off pain tokens to other units on turn one you can guarantee your incubi FNP at the beginning of the battle if you need to.

also, the incubi unit is already fearless because they have drazhar.

Only Incubi - no invunerable. 230 points.

No thanks.

I also don't get why people think his shadowstep ability is so great - he has to remain within coherency of his squad. So I guess he can move around one powerfist, possibly, depending on the close combat situation?

Can he break coherency during CC to sleaze-step anywhere he wants? If so, that's good. If not, I don't see how you can sidestep groups with 2-3 powerweapons, and still maintain coherency.

The shadow step is nice because you wait until they are all engaged and then move to touch only one model... thus only allowing for one guy to swing back that has either a special weapon or just double armed and either way he will live.

I will say this though. I will be play testing him soon so I'm not saying anything else until then.

Magnalon wrote:Only Incubi - no invunerable. 230 points.

No thanks.

I also don't get why people think his shadowstep ability is so great - he has to remain within coherency of his squad. So I guess he can move around one powerfist, possibly, depending on the close combat situation?

Can he break coherency during CC to sleaze-step anywhere he wants? If so, that's good. If not, I don't see how you can sidestep groups with 2-3 powerweapons, and still maintain coherency.

he must maintain coherency. and your argument about multi-power weapon units can be used with the archon and shadowfield as well. once he fails the shadowfield save the archon just became one of the most vulnerable HQs in the game. at t3 with only a 4+/6+ hes going to be dead, and fast. drazhar has the advantage of having t4, eternal warrior, and a 2+ armor save against volumes of non-pw/pf/etc attacks.

what kills archons however is the unit that puts 5 regular wounds on him and forces him to roll and fail the shadowfeild save then the PF comes in and squashes him. drazhar has the luxury of only ever taking one wound from a PF instead of dying outright from them like the archon.

until they are all engaged and then move to touch only one model... thus only allowing for one guy to swing back

Maybe I'm mistaken, but wouldn't it be the one guy and all the guys within 2" of him? That can still be a problem for Drazhar, as he probably isn't clearing out his whole zone.

if he is fighting a squad small enough to always get the 2" bubble for the power weapon to hit him, that squad is NEVER going to get to swing. drazhar and his inucbi with roast such a unit (barring the aforementioned hammer and anvil units like th/ss termies, crushers etc) before they can swing back

i wrote a list to compliment the use of drazhar, check out the thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/327051.page

The more I read this, this more I'm starting to like him, if/when I ever run dark eldar, I might try him.

He's worthless against any other character or monstrous creature since he lacks an invulnerable save.

If you load him up with other Incubi, you're overkilling anything you charge. So his squad will evaporate in the next turn's shooting phase. Even if he charges something again, any hidden power fist will eat his lunch.

again, its why you give him a smaller squad, or run 2 different ones and if the situation warrants a large unit of incubi (TH/SS unit with Lysander come to mind) then you double charge and take care of buisiness.

again everyone brings up the lack of an invulnerable save. Archons may as well have one wound. Most, if not all attacks that manage to get through the shadowfield are going to flatten him to the ground.

more food for thought: what happens when the Archon with a Huskblade runs into Lysander? the answer: Lysander comes out on top. any EW is going to eat the archon alive.

I wasn't advocating tooled up archons either.

Many eggs in a toughness 3, non-Eternal Warrior, basket is wasteful.

Dark Eldar don't wany any super characters in their army. They don't need them to kill anything. And they're just a waste of points.

DarknessEternal wrote:I wasn't advocating tooled up archons either.

Many eggs in a toughness 3, non-Eternal Warrior, basket is wasteful.

Dark Eldar don't wany any super characters in their army. They don't need them to kill anything. And they're just a waste of points.

If you get to do the DA the right way you will be directing the battle. I can very well se this unit soon load up on pain tokens. Asuming you do not charge through terain you can pretty mutch asume you will kill any oposing IC since you get the rerols and you can posision him wherever you like. I think he is very cool.

One thing I am wondering though. If he and a Kailvex both have onslaught, do you get 2 attacks for each 6 you roll. Would be sweet.

Niiai, you are missing one of the more important points of taking drazhar. You dont need to spend the 50-70 extra points on a klaivex when you use him. And, if you are facing any competant player who is using a character like lysander, they arent going to wait around and let your incubi rack up pain tokens by killing tacitcal marines. They will very rarely be charging that kind of unit (lysander and co.) with FC, if the incubi are even the ones getting to charge.

as far as your question goes, they are only going to get one extra attack.

@DarknessEternal, this thread was about the effectiveness of Drazhar vs "Uber"Archons. not whether taking either of them is considered "competitively viable".

I do not se why you don't get 2 exstra attacks. after all, as they are so fond of saying, it is a permissive tule sett. They both trigger.

why would you get 2 attacks? the rule says that any incubi that rolls a six to wound gets one extra attack.

do 3 lictors give you +3 to reserve rolls?

the point is irrelevant anyway and we are getting off topic. it would be a waste of points to take a klaivex in the unit with drazhar. if not a waste then it is most certainly overkill to where it is no longer beneficial.

Ztryder wrote:
@DarknessEternal, this thread was about the effectiveness of Drazhar vs "Uber"Archons. not whether taking either of them is considered "competitively viable".

Why argue the merits of a turd sandwich over a giant douche?

Whether or not you believe they are worth it, there are people that are going to create lists and win competitively with the tooled out archon.

What i am arguing is the fact that Drazhar can be an effective alternative to the archon for reasons already listed.

If you are suggesting that taking Drazhar or the Archon is handcuffing yourself and un-competitive, you are way off base.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Ztryder wrote:
@DarknessEternal, this thread was about the effectiveness of Drazhar vs "Uber"Archons. not whether taking either of them is considered "competitively viable".

Why argue the merits of a turd sandwich over a giant douche?

Depends if your vegitarian or not....

Ztryder wrote:again, its why you give him a smaller squad, or run 2 different ones and if the situation warrants a large unit of incubi (TH/SS unit with Lysander come to mind) then you double charge and take care of buisiness.

again everyone brings up the lack of an invulnerable save. Archons may as well have one wound. Most, if not all attacks that manage to get through the shadowfield are going to flatten him to the ground.

I, too have notced that in every single game that the shadowfïëłd has busted, the archon has died. One wound, indeed.

Personally, I will run drazar in a 9 man squad, and when that would be overkill, he goes off adventuring on his own, letting me deliver 2 credible threats from one raider. The same goes for Lilith, who has the same one wound issue as the archon, and is more than capable of soloing tac squads like drazar. If bouth of them meet a MEQ army, Game Over man!


Also, I want to say I have ALL the pheonix lords =P same rules that apply to them apply to big-D

The problem with using drazhar by himself is if a marine unit somehow was able to run from him, he would be a sitting duck. He has to be used in tandem with the unit. You sacrifice the bonuses for the unit as well if you leave. (since you shouldnt be taking a klaivex with him)

The difference between lelith and drazhar is the number of attacks. Lelith has the opportunity to annihilate entire marine squads by herself, Drazhar has to rely on winning the combat.

I feel like a unit of 9 incubi with either Drazhar or an Archon is going to be forced into a more reactionary role as opposed to an offensive role. With being that strong in combat you are going to want to wait till your opponents hammer unit is out in the open as well. You will end up in a game of cat and mouse. With 2 smaller units, you can go on the offensive and force your opponent to react and then bring the 2 units together to smash the other.

Ztryder wrote:again, its why you give him a smaller squad, or run 2 different ones and if the situation warrants a large unit of incubi (TH/SS unit with Lysander come to mind) then you double charge and take care of buisiness.

again everyone brings up the lack of an invulnerable save. Archons may as well have one wound. Most, if not all attacks that manage to get through the shadowfield are going to flatten him to the ground.

I, too have notced that in every single game that the shadowfïëłd has busted, the archon has died. One wound, indeed.

Personally, I will run drazar in a 9 man squad, and when that would be overkill, he goes off adventuring on his own, letting me deliver 2 credible threats from one raider. The same goes for Lilith, who has the same one wound issue as the archon, and is more than capable of soloing tac squads like drazar. If bouth of them meet a MEQ army, Game Over man!


Also, I want to say I have ALL the pheonix lords =P same rules that apply to them apply to big-D

Ztryder wrote:
The difference between lelith and drazhar is the number of attacks. Lelith has the opportunity to annihilate entire marine squads by herself, Drazhar has to rely on winning the combat.

Lilith might have the opportunity to annihilate entire Marine squads, but on average she won't.

Against marines she'll do a rather modest 2,44 wounds, against which no save can be taken. Lilith also relies on winning the combat as "annihilate" is a pretty strong word to use for 2,44 powerweapon-wounds.

I said opportunity, just as you pointed out she wont do it often. Drazhar however has zero chance of doing that, unless he is up against a combat squaded unit of tac marines.

My point was Drazhar leaving his incubi unit is suicidal. Lelith is a great character, by she really only has one job: winning combats against hordes (orks, gaunts, IG blob etc etc)

Drazhar kills 2,33 or 2,77 Marines, depending on how he uses his Demiklaives. This is ignoring any bonus-attack from Onslaught.

Granted, he is more expensive.

My point was that Lelith has more potential wounds that she can dish out as opposed to Drazhar.

And a Heavy Bolter has the potential to kill more Terminators, but would you really rather shoot at them with a Heavy Bolter than a Lascannon?

If in a 2000pt battle, take Drazhar. Drazhar is not only absolutely devastating in CQC (against everything), as soon as his squad is done butchering whatever they are attacking, they'll all have FNP on top of fearless. He also gets Preferred Enemy against IC's through Muderous Assault. He gets free bonus attacks for getting 6's to save and wound.

I would agree with the Venom transportation idea. 4 Incubi and Drazhar is plenty of attacks to lay low most everything (barring masses of Orks or Synapsed Nids), 9 Incubi and Drazhar would be overkill. His unit charges from a Raider, Drazhar gets 7+ (accounting for rolling 6's, and if he uses his Demiklaives as two seperate weapons) S4 attacks, each of the Incubi get 3 S4 PW attacks on top of Drazhar's PW attacks. We're looking at 18+ PW attacks at I 5 or higher. And when they get a second pain token, add more 1 Strength and Initiative. This unit would be nigh unstoppable. If Drazhar used his Demiklaives as one, he gets 5+ S6 PW attacks. The guy is broken.

With an Archon, you have to hope for the Invunerable saves to work, otherwise you have a tooled up model running around with a mediocre Armor Save and a lot of expensive wargear that is in a tender Toughness 3 package, not to mention no Eternal Warrior. At least with Drazhar there's no worrying about losing the use of gear, he's built to attack ferociously and keep the enemy reeling.