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Kiwidru wrote:Sooo, after checking my list I see that I am not exactly legal... And to bump to 2000 I would need more core to the tune of 175ish points... And since hardly any of the selections count (which is an archaic rule that should be removed now) I am down to skeletons or ghouls.
I would love to add more skeletons to the hoard, but I wonder about the number of drops in larger games, and if that will be a liability. And I would want the old skeleton models to match the rest... It would fit the martial theme, and I could add another unit of wights, or some bloodknights (brettonian kotr) into the mix...
The ghouls would be a nice additional unit, for high T things... I would probaby model them as free company 'strigany' following the also purchased vargulf... A cool little alliance for To'sun

I don't think ghouls are better than skeps in my setup. They have better ws, T, I and A. The helm of command and corpse cart counter the ws poison and I, armor is equivalent to the t, and in hoard I get just as many attacks... And the skels get a banner/magic banner for a possible static +2... I'd say it's a wash perhaps favoring the skeletons. But That is stock ghouls vs buffed skels, so the logic/strategy with the helm is vastly different than without, so it's hard to really compare...
Would To'sun be better off continuing to build his martial forces, or should he embrace the more twisted aspects of immortality?
Anyone had experience with spirit hosts? Or dire bats?

in horde rule the ghouls have more attacks than the skeleons.
if we compare 30 ghouls with 30 skeletons the ghouls will win.

now for the banner it is too expensive to spend it in a unit of skeletons dont you think?

Hmm, I don't really know hoard... Infantry only get one supporting attack? That is what I was basing my calculations on: 2(x)+(x)+(x) for ghouls or (x)+(x)+(x)+(x) for skeletons...

yep, normal infantry 1 supporting attack.
30 skeletons in horde will give you 30 attacks
30 ghouls in horde will give you 40 attacks (2 the first rank, 1 the rest)

Kiwidru gets his skellies up to 40 pretty quick. Then they're equal on attacks. Skels lack the poison, but have the extra rank and banner for combat res and, more importantly, steadfast removal.

all i'm saying is that if we compare ghouls with an EVEN unit of skeletons, the skeleton will alsost surely fall apart.
ok the have the banner so what? +1 to combat resolution
by then the enemy will have smashed half the unit apart.
i dont think a +1 will be of much use

I think the short of it is this- in many (probably most) cases, the ghouls are better. But I think skeletons and spear skeletons in particular have been a little under rated in the rush to crown ghouls as the kings of cool.

In Kiwi's case, he's already got the skellies assembled and painted and they're fitting in just fine.

are you not gonna include zombies or are you gonna try raisin em. they're very very useful as a tie up unit

Why the skelle hate? A banner and shields make them a bit more survivable than Ghouls. The I and WS problem is academic since most of the time enemy forces also have better stats than Ghouls, which means that they are better at killing, but they're also better at dying.
Spears do make them worse, considerably worse than ghouls, but still not half bad if you use them right. So if those are the models you got, use em well.

running out the door to the next battle:
2000 points

L: Vampire Lord (To'sun): Helm of Command, Lord of the Dead, Forbidden Lore, Master of the Dark Arts
H: Vampire: Battle Standard, Flayed Hauberk
H: Vampire: Avatar of Death, Hunter in the Dark, Talisman of the Lycni
H: Wight Lord: Skeletal Steed, Black Ax of Krell
C: 34 Skeletons: Spears, Champion/Standard
C: Corpse Cart
S: 15 Grave Guard: Champion/Standard
S: 5 Black Knights: Barding, Champion/Standard
R: 3 Wraiths: Banshee
R: 5 Blood Knights

To reiterate some things we chatted about in person- I think To'sun is looking good with his upgrades.

I think the scout vampire needs something more to make him scarier. What about that item that gives 3+ ward to shooting? Wristbands of Black Gold? That would make him a little more comfortable if it came to stepping out in front of guns.

Actually, on further reflection, that's a terrible idea that you shouldn't take.

The other thing to consider is maybe dropping the champ from the Black Knights. So long as there's less than 5 rank and file, the Wight King doesn't benefit from Look Out Sir- a problem if cannons or stones come a-calling.

Well, now. In 7th, the 4+ save in CC made skeletons a better choice against weaker infantry.

Consider the following: Ghouls that ASF and have, what, WS7? In a horde. More attacks. Poisoned. Higher Initiative. Higher Toughness, with no armour save (though it's, what, 5+? Not much of a difference).

I will say this: the skeleton banner may offer something neat. But...on a single model basis, ghouls are simply better. And that depresses me.

To'sun's mind throbbed from effort, it seemed like an eternity since he was cut down in battle, and every moment since had been spent spiritually fortifying himself against the horrors inhabiting the ether wind.

"Master, it is time to rise again..."

To'sun snapped abrupty into reality, still clad in his ornate elven armor and clutching his ancestral weapon. His body parried instinctivly, a delayed response to his last previous memory: Slaugtering battle-hardened dwarves three at a time. This was no field of battle, but a familiar earthen room filled with heirlooms, some of his days studying under the masters of the white tower, the banner he bore while riding with the Duke of Aquitaine during the araby crusades, and most prized: his writ of autonomy signed, in blood, by his previous master.

A submissive voice entered To'sun's thoughts, "Master, your loyal subject has returned your spirit to it's rightful place."

Parched beyond description, the vampire lord exerted his will, tracing the telepathy back to his battle standard bearer. He could feel auxillary links branching even further, as easily as flexing a muscle he dominated those as well. His entire army stood obediantly on the field above... even the wights, which To'sun had never tought his second in command to raise...

"Master, it was vital that my efforts to return you were not disturbed, as well as flying your colors."

To'sun snatched the goblet next to him, downing its viscus contents in a single drink. Even the pale starlight burned his eyes, eyes that hadn't been opened in who knows how many months...

"It has been 40 years my lord, the dwarves quartered your body, tied the pieces to various runic stones and then threw them into the holy waters of their mountain stream..."

Anger flared in To'sun's mind: The other vampires, the knights and the lurker... They had betrayed him... Led him to an army of dwarves defending a river of holy light! He would have his vengance, they would die a hundred times under his control...

"The blood knights were scattered beyond recognition, but I did manage to find this..."

To'sun gazed long and hard at the severed ring finger placed on his workbench. The cut was perfectly clean, much sharper than the puddled remains an organ gun usually leaves behind. It would be more than enough, provided that the owner wasn't already alive... With a sneer To'sun congratulated his apprentace, 'You have done well in my absence, let us remind those who would act against my will how terrible my wrath can be, but first... Tell me of the dwarf priest's son...

Ok! To'sun took the field again against my usual dwarven foe, and managed a tie/minor loss dispite many early losses... The army was as follows:

L: Vampire Lord (To'sun): Helm of Command, Wristbands of Black Gold, Lord of the Dead, Forbidden Lore, Master of the Dark Arts
H: Vampire: Battle Standard, Flayed Hauberk, Ironcurse Icon
H: Wight Lord: Skeletal Steed, Black Ax of Krell
C: 50 Skeletons: Spears, Full Command- Warbanner
C: Corpse Cart
S: 15 Grave Guard: Champion/Standard
S: 5 Black Knights: Barding, Standard- Banner of the Barrows
R: 3 Wraiths
R: 4 Blood Knights

I really liked the skeletons... They were roughly 500 points of nigh-unkillable CR goodness... The bsb really aids in both wounds inflicted and his own CR... Also the command was used well for quick reforms and then vanhel's, they perform a reliable 12-16 inch charge after reforming to negate steadfast or maximize attacks with the Helm: Another benifit for skels over ghouls in 8th..
I am still getting used to the failed charge mechanic, and it's oddly vexing that I keep leaving my cavalry out for two failed charges rather than one march to a favorable range.
To'sun really works with the smaller units and the large skels... Since any unit I know is going to win/lose combat can allow me to double up on it's ability... The full spell list is perfect and I feel this is my end build for a while...

Ironcurse icon is the name you're wanting. I've consistently underestimated the skeletons- the ability to keep raising the champ back up is nice too- letting you keep the BSB out of trouble.

An explosion of sulfur signaled the completion of the ritual. To'sun braced himself against his workbench, exausted from days of manipulating the winds of magic.

Taking a moment to relax, he thought back to the first time he undertook the process of soulbinding: He was a young elf, on the verge of graduating from the Tower of Hoeth. The Grandmaster himself gave a lecture on the nature of essence and attunement, before personally overseeing each students spiritbond with their greatweapon. A sliver of the casters life force was transfered into an ornate gem fixed into the hilt, and it would forever onward flicker with strands of magical light, gaining power from it's enhancement.

Snapping back to the present To'sun laughed, what a fool that grandmaster was! How could someone observe the forces of magic for so long and never realize there are no limits on the amount of a soul you could impart, never realize that warpstone could magnify the enhancement even further, never realize it doesn't have to be the caster's spirit sacrificed...

To'sun projected his vision to a bat hanging above a great dwarven funeral procession. The orator's dialect was unusual, but To'sun could pick out most of the dwarven eulogy: rambling on about a lifetime of honor and a proud lineage. Eventually the son of Hroddr was layed to rest next to his father.

To'sun smiled, ceased the vision, and walked over to the hammer. He brought the recently embedded gem up to his face and spoke patronizingly, "Your clan has taken great pains to ensure your memory never dies, but I think my tribute will be much more... Relavent... to you."

Inside the gem a tiny runesmith raged ineffectually against his translucent cell.

Just read through this whole thread, loved it . Good to see VC holding their own in 8th! And to see one of RZ's regular adversaries posting on here

@all the ghoul lovers: Im gonna give you this one, but I shouldn't... Cause I knew it was you. Ghouls might be better than skels, but I don't think it's by much... And whoever heard of a ghoul legion? I dont want an army from where the hills have eyes, I want the army of darkness!

@renbags: one of my first magical priorities is toraise zombies, I only have 20 models, so I figure it's better to be able to place them anywhere within 12" of the vamp, get them for free and only have it cost 50 vps to lose them...

@RiTides: Glad you liked it! Now to play more games...