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To'sun's Tirade

H: Vampire (To'sun): Lord of the Dead, Helm of Command, Black Perapt
H: Necromancer: Book of Arkham
C: 31 Skeletons: Spears, Champion, Standard Bearer
C: Corpse Cart
S: 15 Grave Guard: Champion, Standard Bearer
S: 5 Black Knights: Barding, Champion, Standard Bearer

What, what? VC? Haven't seen these yet. Normally I'd say spears weren't a good expenditure, but perhaps with the helm and necromantic magic to boost them, they'll make good use. Are there any spells purchased for the Necromancer?

New List, I ran exactly as above, except with units of 10 and 20 skeletons. I had wanted another drop, but raise dead filled that role nicely.
With the new rules, and necromancy being infinitly spamable, I think this is a more efficient magic build since I always have the three necro spells available. This also allows the general to deal damage in combat, if he gets caught.


To'sun's Tirade

H: Vampire (To'sun): Lord of the Dead, Helm of Command, Avatar of Death
H: Necromancer: Invocation, Vanhel's, Black Perapt
C: 31 Skeletons: Spears, Champion, Standard Bearer
C: Corpse Cart
S: 15 Grave Guard: Champion, Standard Bearer
S: 5 Black Knights: Barding, Champion, Standard Bearer

Just for argument sake:
with new rules necromancy is NOT "infinitly spamable". Assuming that you use 1 dice to spam invocation, you risk "Broken concentration" on a score of 1 or 2, which will end the magic phase for that caster. So statistically speaking that caster can cast 1.5 invocations during your magic phase. Far from infinitly spammable even if you are lucky with power pool. With Vanhel's its better because you will be using 2 dice so only score of 1 on both dice will end your casting but still there is a risk.
Unless, of course, there is some FAQ etc that i am not aware of

You are correct on all accounts, my main observation is that the spell you 'want' can be cast as many times as needed until it goes off, and due to the winds of magic rules the caster almost always has more dice than the dispeller... So as long as you succesfully cast (I throw 2 dice at almost everything) you can simply erode the defenders dice by forcing them to repeatedly dispell the same spell over and over

I dont know why spears would be your first choice, skeleton attacks are so bad getting more of them is kind of pointless. I would also recommend putting master of the black arts on your lord, makes sure you always have at least 4 PD.

I agree with Leith - drop the spears - in my opinion they are not worth their points.
But i would exchange them for Balefire on Corpse cart.

The army is painted from a few editions ago, so the spears are for wysiwyg rather than efficiency...
Vanhel's and the cart, coupled with the helm, I was able to get quite a few asf And/or ws 6 attacks... And with invocation I feel that the hoard can stay large enough to merit the extra rank of attacks... Time will tell, Thanks for the input!

Try this, drop the Skeletons, take ghouls, include a wight king to be your general, ld 9 helps. take a vampire with Ghoulkin and summon Ghouls. Run them in units of 20to start out with

Wight king 80
Enchanted Shield
Vampie 160
Ghoulkin
Summon Ghouls
The Flayed Hauberk

Ghouls*20 160
Ghouls*20 160
Ghouls*20 160
Ghouls*20 160
10 Grave Guard 120

Use the Grave Guard to bunker your Wight king and Vampire. Make your full Ghoulkin move up and replace dead troops, try to get a block or two of the ghouls to 40 and run them in a hoard once you raise them to 30 or more.

I don't know if just one single level 1 vampire is going to be able to bump a unit to 40, much less two of them...

That Ghoul list looks good, and I am interested in how it works out for you, but it really has nothing to do wth mine.
As for the spears... The more I think about it, the easier it seems to snap an arm and replace it... If the current list doesn't meet expectations I'll proxy hw/sh subsequently

on your vampire hero, you need avatar of death vampire power to arm him with great weapon and heavy armour. As everyone else has stated, skeletons would be less useful with spears because you're primarily using them to tie up enemy units, also, take away the barding on the black knights and use them as a flank charge for the unit the skeletons have tied up. if you lose the barding you can spend the points on balefire, in which case it'll increase your magic defence abit. plus, put your necromancer on your corpse cart and keep him near you skellies, that'd be good for raisin a couple of them and also giving them always strikes first rule

Renbags wrote:on your vampire hero, you need avatar of death vampire power to arm him with great weapon and heavy armour. As everyone else has stated, skeletons would be less useful with spears because you're primarily using them to tie up enemy units, also, take away the barding on the black knights and use them as a flank charge for the unit the skeletons have tied up. if you lose the barding you can spend the points on balefire, in which case it'll increase your magic defence abit. plus, put your necromancer on your corpse cart and keep him near you skellies, that'd be good for raisin a couple of them and also giving them always strikes first rule

Putting the necro on the cart will add another 100 points to heroes, which takes him over the limit.

-Matt

@renbags: you are correct about the vampire and I had... the edit was to clairify.
The loss of barding does interest me... That would free the perfect ammount for an upgrade to the cart... Last edition I found that the lodestone was more benifitial, as magic wasn't as destructive and my level 1s could mitigate the big stuff, while reraising the minor dd casualties... I can see balefire being better now and will try it out again (except against zekes dwarfs muahaha)

No! Load up on scrolls and such!

Other thing to consider as the army grows (if it grows) is someone with forbidden lore. The shadow buffs in particular can help you make the most of the spears.

haha ty for takin info in. no one ever listens to me
@HawaiiMatt
I meant to replace the actual corpse cart with one mounted with a necromancer on it, the price for mounting him on a corpse cart includes the actual price for buying a corpse cart seperately

Renbags wrote:haha ty for takin info in. no one ever listens to me
@HawaiiMatt
I meant to replace the actual corpse cart with one mounted with a necromancer on it, the price for mounting him on a corpse cart includes the actual price for buying a corpse cart seperately

Vampire with the gear you listed is 165 points.
Necromancer on foot with book is 90 points.
That's 250 points of heroes in a 1000 point list.

When you mount the necro on the corpse cart, that 75 points that was core becomes 75 more points of heroes; taking your hero allotment to 325, which is only legal in a 1300 point game.
You can't mount the necro, because it makes your list illegal at 1,000 points.

-Matt

well in which case drop the corpse cart mounted necro then, and I'm sorry if i offended you

Good news fellow zombies... Played a game with the modified list today and managed a win!

The game unfolded almost perfectly, with the exception of the knights and necro meeting fairly unsatisfying ends. The new magic is much more efficient, and as hypothesised, even during the poor winds of magic turns, and with the loss of the necro... To'sun was able to give the rnf the extra bodies they needed to grind combats out.
The Helm of Command is the best item in the book for making crappy guys more survivable, and it can't be stopped! Combined with the corpse cart, skeletons become a threat rather than just a tarpit, and zombies can mitigate some incoming hits.
Spear skeleton were worth it with, as I got to attack with the fourth row while hoarded, and an extra rank while reformed to 5 wide. The unit never got into threat of destruction... So having more saved wasn't an issue.
That being said, everything worked out as I wanted and the victory still hung on the final combat of 6... So it was by no means a rout.

Yeah, down to the last turn. I think we were about tied- I'd lost 250 points and a banner worth of warriors, you'd lost the a stack of zombies, necro, knights, and their banner.

The critical difference was that I wasn't going to be able to get any more points. No way was I going to res out the units in contact. So by turn 6, you were in a win at best, draw at worst situation. Well played!

I think if the list grows, a shadow caster for extra buffs/debuffs and such on the skeletons/their opponents once they're in combat has potential as well.

Just take a wight king and a couple necromancers, lol

But who wears the Weapon Skill hat then?

haha very very true

Alright! Back from the dead, again. To'sun has been busy, rising to the status of lord, giving the blood debt to the necromancer, and together bending the will of an ancient barbarian king! Today's game is at 1500, so let's see how it pans out... Most of the army is used at this point, so here we go!

L: Vampire Lord (To'sun): Helm of Command, Lord of the Dead
H: Vampire: Battle Standard, Flayed Hauberk
H: Wight Lord: Skeletal Steed, Black Ax of Krell
C: 34 Skeletons: Spears, Champion/Standard
C: Corpse Cart
S: 16 Grave Guard: Champion/Standard
S: 5 Black Knights: Barding, Champion/Standard
R: 3 Wraiths: Banshee

Another good showing by the VC! I can see how skeletons without augmentation should use hw/sh, but in hoard, with high ws, and asf from vanhel's or the cart is AWESOME! I was churning out as many wounds as the dorfs in contact, if not more! Going from hits on 5's gets hit on 3's to hits on 3's gets hit on 4's was always a huge swing, but with 2 more ranks of attacks than I had last edition is delightful!
On the subject of the hoard rule: hell yes! It's exactly what I wished I could do last edition, and really makes this army a lot more fun/competative, nothing was worse then watching an uber unit do 10 wounds then crumble another 10 to wipe a block of 20 before they could be reraised!
To'sun did his thing, and I'm noicing that most miscasts are a joke for a solo vampire... The worst I've encountered was str 10 hits and loss of dice... Not a big deal to heal with whatever you have left.
Wight king was in the thick of it the whole game, and although he was brought down, it is vital to have a fighty hero if you use your lord in a supporting role...
Bsb was also vital to provide an additional march bubble, an additional invocation source, as well as a frontline hero.
Wraiths had a chance for awesomeness, but had to settle for mediocrecy... insubstantial units are Still a cool aspect, but I wonder about spirit hosts... But that might be the hobbiest in me wondering what I would convert...

i would recommend:

1) ghouls!! were are the ghouls? t4, 2 attacks, better I!!, poisoned attacks!!!!!!!
why take skeletons?
2) are the black knights of any use? i would put more grave guard in their place and if you want something fast there are the dire wolves.

Bah don't take ghouls and grave guard. I do fine with spear skeles and grave guard.

sexiest_hero wrote:Bah don't take ghouls and grave guard. I do fine with spear skeles and grave guard.

well yeah but if we compare them the ghouls are better in most aspects and equal with the skellies in the rest.
the only thing in which skellies are better is the models..

Sooo, after checking my list I see that I am not exactly legal... And to bump to 2000 I would need more core to the tune of 175ish points... And since hardly any of the selections count (which is an archaic rule that should be removed now) I am down to skeletons or ghouls.
I would love to add more skeletons to the hoard, but I wonder about the number of drops in larger games, and if that will be a liability. And I would want the old skeleton models to match the rest... It would fit the martial theme, and I could add another unit of wights, or some bloodknights (brettonian kotr) into the mix...
The ghouls would be a nice additional unit, for high T things... I would probaby model them as free company 'strigany' following the also purchased vargulf... A cool little alliance for To'sun

I don't think ghouls are better than skeps in my setup. They have better ws, T, I and A. The helm of command and corpse cart counter the ws poison and I, armor is equivalent to the t, and in hoard I get just as many attacks... And the skels get a banner/magic banner for a possible static +2... I'd say it's a wash perhaps favoring the skeletons. But That is stock ghouls vs buffed skels, so the logic/strategy with the helm is vastly different than without, so it's hard to really compare...
Would To'sun be better off continuing to build his martial forces, or should he embrace the more twisted aspects of immortality?
Anyone had experience with spirit hosts? Or dire bats?

The problem with VC infantry is that they did not gain any benefit from steadfast - they still lose models for as much as they lose combat. That's why I think ghouls are better - their wound generation is so much more superior than skeletons. Trust me, as someone who played VC since the 7th ed book came out, ghouls are better.