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It's all about suspending disbelief. Let me just say, I haven't walked away from any of these books impressed or convinced by the traitor Primarchs. The brief glimpse of Guilliman in First Heretic, however, left me more ready than ever to put an Ultramarine army together.

I feel that Magnus is one of the traitors that had some good points. He was an advocate for education and illumination, but since he was a psycher, his fate was sealed. Not only does his fate show how hypocritical the Imperium is, it shows that they are kind of blinded by their own will to follow the Emperor.

Horus had a good point of seeing that all the Astartes had worked for was being given away to corrupted politicians and administrators to create more disparity in an already hellish existence for those on compliant Imperial worlds. As far as the Emperor's rumored rise to godhood, I'm not sure if that is Chaos talking to Horus, or if the Emperor truly was working on a device to transcend mortality. He certainly did become a god after Horus wounded him. I'm not sure if this is what the writers meant by his rise to godhood, but I could imagine that this is where they are heading if it hasn't already been written about.

I'm only starting "Legion" right now, but I felt that Angron, Lorgar, Mortarion, and Fulgrim all kinda fell for stupid reasons.

In game terms, I've considered starting a Pre-heresy army of Luna Wolves, Thousand Sons, Death Guard, or Iron Hands. All the books have done an extremely good job of making the primarchs likable while they were loyal.

I think some of the Primarchs had good points, but their own situations screwed them.

"A Thousand Sons" changed my opinions of Magnus and I'm halfway through "The First Heretic" which i'm very much enjoying.

Erik Wolfbrother wrote:I feel that Magnus is one of the traitors that had some good points. He was an advocate for education and illumination, but since he was a psycher, his fate was sealed. Not only does his fate show how hypocritical the Imperium is, it shows that they are kind of blinded by their own will to follow the Emperor.
...

For me Thousand Sons showed me that Magnus was at least as delusional as the rest of them. He thought he knew the best but the events of that novel proved that he was sorely mistaken. Especially with what effect he had on Terra and what happened to his children when they were fighting the SW. My big problem with the Emperor in the HH series is that for someone who apparently thinks of the Chaos Gods as the greatest threat to mankind he sure didnt educate his champions well enough.
So far the HH has proved the Emperor's hardcore "No gods, no worship" stance correct.

Betrayal is subjective. Lorgar grows up on a world with very dominant religion, and is convinced that the ONLY way humanity can endure is through faith - what it has faith IN is less important than the act of joining together through worship.

So, when the Emperor outright states that he is not a God (after seemingly accepting it for a hundred years), Lorgar attempts to find a 'real' God for humanity to have faith in.

In Lorgar's mind, he's saving humanity. He may be a traitor to the Imperium, but he doesn't think of himself as a traitor to humanity.

On the other hand, the Alpha Legion are, as loyalists, the most free-thinking legion. They deliberately isolate themselves from the rest of the Imperium and, though they support it in principle, they are aware that it is a flawed ideal. When they turn, they also do it for what they see as morally 'good' reasons - the preservation of the whole universe rather than just the human race. They are traitors to humanity, but they see it as part of a noble 'higher calling'.

Other primarchs are much simpler - Angron and Perturabo felt betrayed by the Emperor personally, Night Haunter felt beytrayed by the whole Imperium, and Magnus was kinda forced into it.

Everyone seems to be portrayed as petty, squabbling, self agrandizers. Pretty much how the 40k universe is currently.

I maybe have a better understanding of how the little people are affected and think about this aspect more.

Oh and I agree That Big E should have done more, but then, we wouldn't have 40k as it exists 'Deus Ex Machina'.

Mr. Burning wrote:
I maybe have a better understanding of how the little people are affected and think about this aspect more.

Why would you have a better understanding of the little people? Are you a squat? a hive dweller? a ratling?

See for me the big issue is how blindly loyal some of the marines were to their primarchs.



For me, too many of the traitor marines were all-too-willing to get involved.

ChaosGalvatron wrote:

Mr. Burning wrote:
I maybe have a better understanding of how the little people are affected and think about this aspect more.

Why would you have a better understanding of the little people? Are you a squat? a hive dweller? a ratling?

Ah, I should check what I type before hitting the submit button.

Reading the HH novels I enjoy learning more about the average inhabitants of the 40k universe, from the rememberancers to city dwellers. Slogging through nemesis at the moment I am more interested in goings on on Dagonet than the assassins and Valdor, Dorn, and Malcadors usual grumping, moping and posturing (yay, super humans are subject to petty wrangling, yawn).

The story in Horus Heresy with Angron and Kharn really illustrated to me just how loyal the legions were to their primarchs. This was a legion where literally every marine would have died before raising their hand against their progenitor. Excluding the betrayal on Istvaan 3 i think most marines were the same. The loyalists on istvaan 3 were forced to defy their progenitors, and i was still surprised there was only 1 marine in particular who returned to his legion.
Pretty much if your primarch turned to chaos, you were stuck along for the ride.




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Mr. Burning wrote:

ChaosGalvatron wrote:

Mr. Burning wrote:
I maybe have a better understanding of how the little people are affected and think about this aspect more.

Why would you have a better understanding of the little people? Are you a squat? a hive dweller? a ratling?

Ah, I should check what I type before hitting the submit button.

Reading the HH novels I enjoy learning more about the average inhabitants of the 40k universe, from the rememberancers to city dwellers. Slogging through nemesis at the moment I am more interested in goings on on Dagonet than the assassins and Valdor, Dorn, and Malcadors usual grumping, moping and posturing (yay, super humans are subject to petty wrangling, yawn).

i find the remembrances some of the most interesting characters in the HH series. Most of the SM's are pretty boring. Though maybe that is because very few are fleshed out. I really liked iactos quaze the half - the old school luna wolf. I liked all the marines that could remember terra, remember rocking out with the emperor. unlike the newbies that only knew their primarch.
And yes, looking back it probably explains the ones in the chaos legions who remained loyal vs the traitors. the loyalists were more likely to have been one of the original terran space marines, or had exposure to them. whereas the traitors were more likely to be devoted to their primarch above the emperor.

Is it me, or that there are no HH books from the "Traitors'" point of view?

undivided wrote:Is it me, or that there are no HH books from the "Traitors'" point of view?

How do you mean?

The first three deal specifically with the Luna Wolves

Thousand Son is exclusively from The....... Thousand Sons perspective.

I havent read all of the books yet. But I have read the fiction about the overall period via google.

For a couple of them I do feel sympathy. Magnus is the main one I feel sorry for, since all he did was try to warn the Emperor of what was coming and instead was turned against. Granted he shouldnt have been messing with sorcery, but his warning should have at least brought about a level of concern. Alphaus is the other one I think was mistakenly wronged.

Instead his dad was a bit of a pompus ass. He should have listened to his son first, then punishing him later.

But no matter what the reasons were that turned them I still would have supported the Emperor.

For the most part-- with the exception of Magnus and Fulgrim, basically-- they just seem like sheep following gods they don't understand all out of a knee-jerk reaction from not getting everything they wanted from big daddy Emperor.

Magnus and Fulgrim were the two that were best written by far, as far as the traitors go.


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Charley359 wrote:Instead his dad was a bit of a pompus ass. He should have listened to his son first, then punishing him later.

The Emperor just asked the wolves to bring him in, not to kill him. It was Horus that twisted this order into "maim kill burn". Actually, that's the very reason why Magnus feels so sympathetic-- if only things had been different. Ah well. Chaos gets the Egypt-themed faction, not the Loyalists.

Basically its all the Big E's fault.

E was negligent in his care of his kids, gave them all lots of toys and a massive playground for then to prove themselves in, then, whilst they were shouting 'look daddy, look what I have done' he buggered off back to his house and locked the door behind him so he could boot up his computer and look up 'hot esoteric action'.

I do notice that one of the kids has been so brainwashed and browbeaten that he stays around the house tidying up.

Who wants to read about neglected kids who joined some kind of cult?

Just call galactic social services.

Mr. Burning wrote:
E was negligent in his care of his kids, gave them all lots of toys and a massive playground for then to prove themselves in, then, whilst they were shouting 'look daddy, look what I have done' he buggered off back to his house and locked the door behind him so he could boot up his computer and look up 'hot esoteric action'.

His timing wasn't exactly the best was it? Maybe if he would've waited until the end of the Crusade and said 'well that's me done kids, you look after the Imperium for a while whilst a take a look at the webway ... errr I mean ... sit down with a cup of tea'.

And then told them about it rather than ... I need to go now to do something so important that I can't even tell you kids.

I think chaos had been planning for a long time on how to take down the emperor, and the primarchs were the key to this. So what seems like small reasons to betray humanity to us, are blown out proporsion in the eyes of the primarchs because of the chaos gods.

Remember, chaos showed Horus that he would be forgotten and cast aside. That would tick me off too.

Mr. Burning wrote:Who wants to read about neglected kids who joined some kind of cult?

Maybe they really aren't kids. (That reading is more than a little lame.) It could be that the Primarchs were really just instruments the Emperor created to fulfill a purpose and had no "right," as it were, to ask so many questions. Honestly, nothing gives Horus or the others the "right" to know everything the Emperor thinks and plans. If anything, the loyalists were more willing to accept their place on the totem pole. Did the Emperor let Guilliman and Sanguinius in on his secret research but not Horus and Magnus? Did he tell Russ all about the Ruinous Powers but not Lorgar? That's pretty doubtful.

Mr Nobody wrote: That would tick me off too.

Indeed, but still doesn't change the fact that he betrayed his father pretty easily. We know that it's Horus actions that cause there not to be any status of him.

Also remember that Horus discovered from Magnus at the end of the vision that he was being deceived, he still chose to follow Erebus even.

Manchu wrote:

Mr. Burning wrote:Who wants to read about neglected kids who joined some kind of cult?

Maybe they really aren't kids. (That reading is more than a little lame.) It could be that the Primarchs were really just instruments the Emperor created to fulfill a purpose and had no "right," as it were, to ask so many questions. Honestly, nothing gives Horus or the others the "right" to know everything the Emperor thinks and plans. If anything, the loyalists were more willing to accept their place on the totem pole. Did the Emperor let Guilliman and Sanguinius in on his secret research but not Horus and Magnus? Did he tell Russ all about the Ruinous Powers but not Lorgar? That's pretty doubtful.

Its much more fun to jump on the, Primarchs are spoilt brats band wagon though.

The Primarchs and legions must fear the use they are made for will come to an end. I wonder if the Emperor would regret the making of his instruments, even before the heresy?

I would be much more sympathetic, and interested, if this were explored. Even Boring Rowboat would be made interesting if the loyalist Primarchs and legions had some thought that their continued existence relies on never accomplishing theiri task and that heresy guarantees their survival.

I think that's pretty much what was getting Horus riled up--that he was just being used up and would eventually be disposed of. On the other hand, he was treated as the favored son so those feelings are hard to take seriously. I don't think any of them have yet expressed support for the heresy simply to plunge the Imperium into endless war. Sounds like something Angron might dream up, right? Maybe even Perturabo?

liam0404 wrote:These guys were as loyal as Abbadon and Little Horus, yet they had the sense to see that what was going on was wrong.[/spoiler]

What has always made me think is did the Traitors ever think that what they were doing was wrong.

For example the Emperors Children start allowing themselves to be genetically modified by Fabius and dress in flayed skins. Did they ever think 'hey, haven't we gone a bit to far'. So they had to kill their brothers in other legions to get to where they wanted to be, the new masters of the Imperium, but worshipping gods and killing hundreds of thousands of innocents for no apparent reason. Surely some must have thought, what are we doing is wrong. Devram Korda seems to question what they are doing, I think Sedirae also did before he, well, you know.

ChaosGalvatron wrote:The story in Horus Heresy with Angron and Kharn really illustrated to me just how loyal the legions were to their primarchs. This was a legion where literally every marine would have died before raising their hand against their progenitor. Excluding the betrayal on Istvaan 3 i think most marines were the same. The loyalists on istvaan 3 were forced to defy their progenitors, and i was still surprised

True but then you could argue that the events on Istvaan prove that loyalty above all for a large part of the legions was always to the Emperor. They were the element that the Primarchs knew would never be turned to their cause.

I think the exception would be the Night Lords as they had gone rogue even before the Heresy and I guess the Iron Warriors after the destruction of Olympia.


The Traitor Primarchs seem to use bully tactics to force their point, Lorgar against Sol Tagron, Mortarion on Garro, Fulgrim through Eidolon on Tarvitz. You're either with them or against them, despite of how loyal you are, as Liam points out.

Also I wonder if the Loyalist Legions had to purge their ranks of traitors from the First Heretic we know that Lodges were in other Legions. Will we see the likes of the Imperial Fists have cull or were the loyalist legions just that, loyal without question.

The difference between the traitor and loyalist primarchs seems to be that the loyal knew their role and accepted their lot. The traitor primarchs wanted more.

Manchu wrote: I don't think any of them have yet expressed support for the heresy simply to plunge the Imperium into endless war. Sounds like something Angron might dream up, right? Maybe even Perturabo?

I think you're right. I don't think that even these 2 wanted a constant war, just wanted to have what they were due and be recognised. But as with a lot of things the deeper you get in the harder it is to get out. If Perturabo saw hope that he might have been forgiven for Olympia then he might not have even sided with Horus.

This poll assumes one was sympathetic toward the Imperium at the outset and that the books could only make you more sympathetic toward the Traitors or leave your view unchanged.

Personally, I find that the books have made me more sympathetic to the loyalists and 40K humanity in general. I always preferred the Xenos (Eldar, Orks) and Chaos (Nurgle). The HH books have awakened my humanocentric tendencies.

The Lodges of other legions might of been purged. Remember only the Grey Knights have never had a single one of their number fall. Which means each legion has had members betray them.

Horus turned on the emperor because when he was heavily wounded and poisoned in battle lorgar, primarch of the word bearers somehow clouded his min (how exactly is not specified). The others turned out of greed, Being convicted to chaos (word bearers), being declared heretics for practising sorcery (magnus and his thousand sons), Believing in horus more than the emperor (sons of horus) or being mutants.
If anyone whants more detailed info about anything 40k or warhammer fantasy visit www.lexicanum.com which is basically a warhammer wiki

Malice wrote:
If anyone whants more detailed info about anything 40k or warhammer fantasy visit www.lexicanum.com which is basically a warhammer wiki

. Sorry but we all know about Lexicanum. I think almost everyone on dakkadakka has heard of lexicanum

*mind


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Ok well im just saying for everyone who doesnt, since all of what i said is written there and not everyone seems to know it

Malice wrote:*mind

Use the edit button. its very useful.
Anyway the only Groups I feel sorry for is Alpharius and Omegaon and Magnus.

The only legion I wish they would write about more are the DARK ANGELS!
I mean seriously we need the loyalist point of view.
So far everyone is getting confused. And I hate the BS that luther was the good guy. He isn't. He is as evil as they come! The Lion evil! HAHAHAHAHAHA.
Well this maybe because I *cough*love*cough* the dark angels. I never find any really really good lore on them.

p.s i was reading ur blog and maybe you know, maybe you dont but the 10'th company is a scout company, so everyone in it is a scout (with the exception of seargents)

Malice wrote:p.s i was reading ur blog and maybe you know, maybe you dont but the 10'th company is a scout company, so everyone in it is a scout (with the exception of seargents)

Please PM me. Wrong forum to do that.