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don_mondo wrote:

Userarm wrote:other weapons/grenades that glance/penetrate vehicles on a certain roll like the gauss rule for example ie rolls of 6's will always glance even if armour value is greater etc

All good except this one. If a weapon, ex Haywire Grenades, has a rule that says something like glance on 2-5, pen on 6, then a 6 will result in a penetrating hit.

@Xcalibur. When making close combat attacks, you attack with a weapon, even if that weapon is your fist. See page 42 for details............................

So what is the strength of a power weapon then? Say, lightning claws.

Lightning claws count as power weapons and use the base strength of the model using them, they dont affect vehicles in any special way but they allow no normal armour saves and they allow re-rolls to wound as stated on pg42 in the rulebook.

Kevin949 wrote:

don_mondo wrote:

Userarm wrote:other weapons/grenades that glance/penetrate vehicles on a certain roll like the gauss rule for example ie rolls of 6's will always glance even if armour value is greater etc

All good except this one. If a weapon, ex Haywire Grenades, has a rule that says something like glance on 2-5, pen on 6, then a 6 will result in a penetrating hit.

@Xcalibur. When making close combat attacks, you attack with a weapon, even if that weapon is your fist. See page 42 for details............................

So what is the strength of a power weapon then? Say, lightning claws.

As defined for close combat attacks on page 38, strength of user unless a special rule says otherwise. So page 38, attacks resolved with users strength unless special rule says otherwise, page 42, all attacks use CCW or special CCW. All good now?

Ya, pretty much, but I believe you don't see where I'm going with this. You may attack with a weapon in CC but no CC weapon has a strength value, it is all based off the models strength. Since the rule does not disallow modifications to a models strength the living metal rule has no effect on furious charge (similar to how it doesn't affect power fists/TH).

Another Monolith Bane is the Iron Clad, as it's Siesmic Hammer is AP 1 essentially.

Kevin949 wrote:Ya, pretty much, but I believe you don't see where I'm going with this. You may attack with a weapon in CC but no CC weapon has a strength value, it is all based off the models strength. Since the rule does not disallow modifications to a models strength the living metal rule has no effect on furious charge (similar to how it doesn't affect power fists/TH).

I think the problem is that FC and Tank Hunter don't add to the base strength of the attacker (otherwise you'd have a SM with a PF on getting strength 10) it is added to the total attack roll. Thus 'unmodified strength of the weapon plus 1D6 only' would exclude them.

But the weapon strength isn't being modified, the models strength is, and the monoliths rule says nothing about a models strength not being allowed to be modified, only a weapons. And CC weapons have no strength and can never be modified (unless there is some weird psychic powers out there I don't know of which is probable).

I guess to put it into perspective this is how I see it -

If equation is - STR+1+1D6 - that is allowed
If equation is - STR+1D6+1 - then that isn't allowed.

Zeshin - FC alters the Strength of the model, not the weapon.

UMS(Powerfist) = 2x users strength.

While the users strength is changing, this has no effect on the weapon - it is still doubling your strength.

Where it confuses people is because they perform mathematics correctly - if it was 2x(S+1) it would be less confusing and more clear that it is still the Unmodified Strength of the Powerfist. As it is it is STILL unmodified, as the only change is to the strength of the wielder.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Zeshin - FC alters the Strength of the model, not the weapon.

UMS(Powerfist) = 2x users strength.

While the users strength is changing, this has no effect on the weapon - it is still doubling your strength.

Where it confuses people is because they perform mathematics correctly - if it was 2x(S+1) it would be less confusing and more clear that it is still the Unmodified Strength of the Powerfist. As it is it is STILL unmodified, as the only change is to the strength of the wielder.

So a marine with Furious Charge would be str 10 with a PF on the charge?

zeshin wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Zeshin - FC alters the Strength of the model, not the weapon.

UMS(Powerfist) = 2x users strength.

While the users strength is changing, this has no effect on the weapon - it is still doubling your strength.

Where it confuses people is because they perform mathematics correctly - if it was 2x(S+1) it would be less confusing and more clear that it is still the Unmodified Strength of the Powerfist. As it is it is STILL unmodified, as the only change is to the strength of the wielder.

So a marine with Furious Charge would be str 10 with a PF on the charge?

9 you multiply then add

The way the equation was written out you would add then multiply. It should be - (Str X 2) +1.

Kevin949 wrote:The way the equation was written out you would add then multiply. It should be - (Str X 2) +1.

Exactly, and shows why you do not get the Furious Charge, as it is added after determining the weapons strength.

Except it ISNT added after you determine the weapons strength. It is part of the calculation.

In this case, because they multiply correctly the unmodified strength is 2S+1. If they did not multiply correctly it would be 2x(S+1)

This should make it clear that, EITHER way round, the unmodified strength of the PF is not altered.

Strength of the weapon is not allowed to be altered
The stgrength of the bearer is never mentioned. Because of this the strength of the bearer CAN alter and, no matter which strength the bearer has, the weapon is still considered unmodified.

Sorry, I don't see it. The strength of the Powerfist is xusers strgength, the +1 for Furious Charge is added to that after multiplying, I consider that an "augmentation".

Except it is modifying the strength of the user, not the weapon.

It would be clearer if they didnt perform the multiply, add correctly, as then it would be 2(S+1) to give you the end result.

The strength of the weapon isnt fixed, it is a variable based on a (usually fixed) number.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except it is modifying the strength of the user, not the weapon.

It would be clearer if they didnt perform the multiply, add correctly, as then it would be 2(S+1) to give you the end result.

The strength of the weapon isnt fixed, it is a variable based on a (usually fixed) number.

It's either part of the base strength in which case it's multiplied by the PF or it's not part of the base strength and it's in addition to the Str + 1D6 only.

Except that modifying the USERS strength is not covered in the rules for LM, only modifying the WEAPONS strength is.

You have not modified the weapons strength; the weapons strength is still 2S. It is just S that has changed - which is nothing to do with the LM as it is the USERS strength.

User / = Weapon.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except that modifying the USERS strength is not covered in the rules for LM, only modifying the WEAPONS strength is.

You have not modified the weapons strength; the weapons strength is still 2S. It is just S that has changed - which is nothing to do with the LM as it is the USERS strength.

User / = Weapon.

But the users strength isn't allowed by LM, only the unmodified weapons strength plus a D6.

Huh?

LM makes NO restrictions on the users strength varying. ALL it states is the WEAPONS strength cannot be modified.

By altering the users strength you have not modified the weapons strength.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Huh?

LM makes NO restrictions on the users strength varying. ALL it states is the WEAPONS strength cannot be modified.

By altering the users strength you have not modified the weapons strength.

It makes no allowance for the users strength at all. This being a permissive ruleset and cc weapons having already been established as having the same str characteristic as the user (2x in the case of PF and TH) I would assume that any additional numbers (or dice) added beyond that covered in the "weapons str + 1D6" are indeed not permitted under the living metal rule.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Huh?

LM makes NO restrictions on the users strength varying. ALL it states is the WEAPONS strength cannot be modified.

By altering the users strength you have not modified the weapons strength.

Doesn't matter what it modifies, users strength or weapons strength, since all you ever get is the unmodified strength of the weapon plus 1d6. Period. You don't get to add +1 for a users strength modifier, you don't get to add +1 for weapon strength modifier, you don't get to add ANYTHING to the formula of USW plus 1d6. I'll say it again, all you ever get when attempting to penetrate a Monolith is the unmodified strength of the weapon plus 1d6. If it isn't part and parcel of one of those two things, you don't get it. Ever. Really, it's that frikkin' simple.

Weapon and model are not interchangeable terms in this system. It's really that simple.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

zeshin wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except it is modifying the strength of the user, not the weapon.

It would be clearer if they didnt perform the multiply, add correctly, as then it would be 2(S+1) to give you the end result.

The strength of the weapon isnt fixed, it is a variable based on a (usually fixed) number.

It's either part of the base strength in which case it's multiplied by the PF or it's not part of the base strength and it's in addition to the Str + 1D6 only.

Hey, found a thread on this situation - http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/283851.page

Page 7 in rule book apparently. Er, about the powerfist and furious charge thing anyway.

Weapon /= User.

the UMS of a powerfist is the variable (2S)

So would you deny a TWC Wolf Lord his S9 / S10 thunderhammer? His strength has been modified afterall

nosferatu1001 wrote:Weapon /= User.

the UMS of a powerfist is the variable (2S)

So would you deny a TWC Wolf Lord his S9 / S10 thunderhammer? His strength has been modified afterall

Whatever is weapon strength strength + 1D6, not weapon strength + user strength bonus + 1D6.

This is from the previous Necron FAQ (version 4.0.1) and nothing in subsequent rules or FAQs has been printed or published to change it:

• When attacking a Monolith, extra penetration dice and
doubling scores are much the same thing – don’t count
any bonus penetration of any sort against a Monolith.
So no bonuses for multiple Talos attacks, tank-hunter
veteran skills, etc. The only exception is the Vindicare
Assassins’ turbo-penetrator round. As this shell is not
bonus penetration as such, it will work. Note that you still
roll 2D6 and pick the higher when attacking a Monolith
with ordnance weapons.

Basically backs up what don_mondo says.
You don't count any bonus penetration against a Monolith.
I don't like it either, but thems the rules.
Have to wait for the new Necron 'dex for (hopefully) clearer Necron rules.

That's great, but Tank hunter is a bonus to the 1d6 rolled which does actually say it is not allowed in the LM rule. I don't know what the other stuff is but it sounds like it is also modifying the 1D6 roll. None of those modify the STR which is what we're talking about. Those are also all referencing weapon strengths of shooting attacks AND the FAQ on the GW site is more up to date as it is a 5th ed FAQ and not a 4th ed. Not to mention the GW faq does state that you get double str for PF/TH.

Kevin949 wrote:That's great, but Tank hunter is a bonus to the 1d6 rolled which does actually say it is not allowed in the LM rule. I don't know what the other stuff is but it sounds like it is also modifying the 1D6 roll. None of those modify the STR which is what we're talking about. Those are also all referencing weapon strengths of shooting attacks AND the FAQ on the GW site is more up to date as it is a 5th ed FAQ and not a 4th ed. Not to mention the GW faq does state that you get double str for PF/TH.

And as I said earlier, it doesn't matter if it's (it being Furious Charge) modifying the strength or whatever. It's not part of the unaugmented strength of the weapon and it's not part of the 1d6. Therefor it's not allowed. It's a bonus that is added to the strength of the model or the weapon after the base unaugmented strength of the weapon (ie 2 x users strength) has been established. That makes it something extra, a bonus, outside of the unaugmented strength of the weapon.

Yet, as was proven, the UNAUGMENTED strength of the weapon is actually a variable, calculated each turn.

Do you deny a TWC Lord his S9 / 10 TH?

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yet, as was proven, the UNAUGMENTED strength of the weapon is actually a variable, calculated each turn.

Do you deny a TWC Lord his S9 / 10 TH?

That depends what the rule says. Though I don't see how you can have a TH with str 9 if it's base is 2x the users strength...unless a TWC has a strength of 4.5.

Because the TWM for Lords states that it adds "+1" to S. This was not errata'ed to S5 base, hence the S9/10 (either double and add, or not)

Either wya we are simply repeating round and round now....