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Seems devious

RB Spam BA. Definitely effective and deadly. I personally, if I wasn't a JPer, I would do a Mech BA over Mech SW due to the fast vehicle rules. The only thing I would do is possibly swap Meph for a Libby and maybe see if I could find points for either a Dread in DP, or a Furioso Libby Dread. The Dread in a DP along with scout baals will definitely pin your enemy down in their deployment zone while you blast away with your HW. If taking the Libby Dread, it would just be another target if the enemy decided to close in for melta range. Flying Dreads are fun, even more so when you see them in action.

I was thinking of dropping one RAS+razor for 160pts, then picking up a priest and doublemelta for the rest of the RAS, leaving me 10pts left over. The priest so I can give meph FnP and FC, and give FnP to guys who get blasted out of their transports. I think it might be worth the 50pts so I can stick the bubble where its needed. Plus the doublemeltas would add even more AT and reliable land raider killing power.

I would be scared out of my wits with this list. Still, any deep striking army could put the hurt on you.

Edited the list:

Mephiston 250

5 man assault squad, meltagun, infernus pistol, remove packs 125
Razorback, TLAC, dozer 60

5 man assault squad, meltagun, infernus pistol, remove packs 125
Razorback, TLAC, dozer 60

5 man assault squad, meltagun, infernus pistol, remove packs 125
Razorback, TLAC, dozer 60

5 man assault squad, meltagun, infernus pistol, remove packs 125
Razorback, TLAC, dozer 60

5 man assault squad, meltagun, infernus pistol, remove packs 125
Razorback, TLAC, dozer 60

Baal Predator, TLAC, dozer blade 120

Baal Predator, TLAC, dozer blade 120

Vindicator, dozer blade 150

Vindicator, dozer blade 150

= 1715

Now that each squad has doublemelta, land raiders arent a problem anymore. Plus now the troops inside can blast apart a tank and let their razor hose down the contents, instead of doing it the other way around. TLAC are good at suppressing, but not great at destroying tanks.

35pts left over, not quite sure what to spend it on.

35pts left over?. . . . A Drop Pod for Meph? Only Joking!

As a long time BA player I personally like Mephiston and whats all the stick he gets for not being Eternal Warrior He's got T6 so can't be killed out right by double toughness weapons, cause there aren't any! Max Strength of any modified attack can only be S10!

Anyway, I'm liking the list and would be very interested in how you get on. I only have 1 squad of Ass Marines without J/Packs (usually sat in a LR) but I do favour them over Tact Marines, mainly for the extra attack and the special weapon options!

Good Luck!

4+ cover saves on all the tanks helps a lot when I'm not going first

So that's guaranteed? 4+ cover saves on all the tanks? How do you presume to achieve that?

All in all, although I rather like the TL AC on BA, the TL HF with a single HK missile is the more flexible and points efficient choice. You could fit a lot more into a 1750p list than this. As far as the Vindicators go, they're so hit and miss that you should avoid them altogether and go with Devs or Auto/Las Preds.

I think this list could give IG a run for their money.

All SW/BA Razorspam variations could give IG a run for their money when the stars are aligned correctly and the IG army is built incorrectly. Mephiston is the extra 'victory condition' for the Blood Angels in addition to shooting, while for SW it is the turbo TWC lord(s) and small TWC squads with PFs in addition to normal spam style shooting. However, arguably, it doesn't change the fact that a well built IG army is the favorite there, regardless of who starts. I say this as mainly an SW/BA player, that eventhough your list here has 10 vehicles (6 AV11, 4 AV13) and my own 1.75K pure mech BA list has 10 (4 AV11 6 AV13 if I'm not using missile Devs), IG will bring 15 AV12 vehicles into the same points value. You do realise that your list has a pathetic 10 weapons that can hurt tanks. My 1.75K IG list has 48 anti-tank heavy weapons and 12 BS4 meltaguns. The numbers speak for themselves, especially as tons of those weapons are twin linked and/or fire multiple shots. As far as range is concerned, it's you who is hopelessly outranged, not the IG, and when you come into your AC range their meltas will also come into play.

I wish you good luck and hope that you aren't kidding yourself about it not being an uphill battle against a perfected leafblower.

Therion wrote:

4+ cover saves on all the tanks helps a lot when I'm not going first

So that's guaranteed? 4+ cover saves on all the tanks? How do you presume to achieve that?

All in all, although I rather like the TL AC on BA, the TL HF with a single HK missile is the more flexible and points efficient choice. You could fit a lot more into a 1750p list than this. As far as the Vindicators go, they're so hit and miss that you should avoid them altogether and go with Devs or Auto/Las Preds.

I think this list could give IG a run for their money.

All SW/BA Razorspam variations could give IG a run for their money when the stars are aligned correctly and the IG army is built incorrectly. Mephiston is the extra 'victory condition' for the Blood Angels in addition to shooting, while for SW it is the turbo TWC lord(s) and small TWC squads with PFs in addition to normal spam style shooting. However, arguably, it doesn't change the fact that a well built IG army is the favorite there, regardless of who starts. I say this as mainly an SW/BA player, that eventhough your list here has 10 vehicles (6 AV11, 4 AV13) and my own 1.75K pure mech BA list has 10 (4 AV11 6 AV13 if I'm not using missile Devs), IG will bring 15 AV12 vehicles into the same points value. You do realise that your list has a pathetic 10 weapons that can hurt tanks. My 1.75K IG list has 48 anti-tank heavy weapons and 12 meltaguns. The numbers speak for themselves, especially as tons of those weapons are twin linked and/or fire multiple shots and all the meltas are BS4.

Yep, all of them. I presume to achieve this by not placing my tanks like a slow and then scouting my baals to give them all cover saves while popping smoke on them. This is only if needed, of course, if going first I'll zoom forward for side shots.

This list is not built to counter mech IG. Its an all comers lost, treat it as such. It WILL lose to a bad matchup, but so will any list.

The list has "only" 2 baals and 2 vindis because its built for a comped tournament with only 2 allowed of the same FA, HS, and elites. The tournament at Riihimäki, you going by any chance? My ordinary razorspam list has 3 baals and 3 vindis, + 5 TLAC razors.

The new list has 5 double melta squads, check it out.

The problem with TLHF razors w/ HK is that they fire that one shot, that isnt at all reliable, and then die most likely. Sure, the TLHF is great against infantry, but BA doesnt really lack anti infantry anyway. If using TLHF I'll stick doublemelta squads in and zoom forward, popping smoke on the way. Sacrificing cover for that one HK shot often means death for the tank, and a long footslog into meltarange for the guys within.

The problem with TLHF razors w/ HK is that they fire that one shot, that isnt at all reliable, and then die most likely.

They fire that one shot and are guaranteed to have enough range. If they die afterwards it is no different than what will happen to a las/plas or tl/ac Razor that fires. If they survive however they can now move 12" deeper and in some cases already unload melta passengers and fry something with the tl/hf. In any case they do this for 25 points cheaper than the other variants, while being just as survivable/not survivable. When using five or six of identical squads these 25 point or 35 point savings buy additional vehicles/squads. Having the HK missile aboard doesn't mean you have to shoot it if blowing smoke and taking your guys deeper is of more priority. Additionally, you can do what you said you would, and advance in a bunch and pop smoke on the first sideways Razor while shooting missiles from two right behind it, etc.

The reason why I don't actually hate your setup is simply because the tl/ac is capable of hurting both armour and infantry. The problem is that it just does it at quite a hefty price tag. I like meltas for the guys and the tl/hf/missile for the vehicle. The only overpriced option for the AM is the +35 points Razorback weapon option, so don't use it. Take the free one instead.

As far as bad matchups go, some armies have more of them than others. This one certainly has more than the IG army I depicted.

Lastly, eventhough the general idea for people seems to be that mech BA don't need FNP, it's easy as heck to fit it in there and personally after having done hundreds of BA tournament lists I fail to see the reason for not taking a priest or Corbulo along for the ride. When you hybridize the list a bit further and take missile Devs to your backfield the positives for having the FNP bubble increase exponentially. It's simply more reliable, and flexible, and that's the way I like it.

I do like the way Vindicators look however, so props for that. I'm sure you know they simply aren't anywhere near the 'best' HS choice available to you.

I'll just edit this in and say that I'm discussing only from a theoretical 'max power' perspective. This doesn't mean that you or anyone should play the 'best' or anything close to the 'best' list available at all times. Tournaments can be won with any army as long as its somewhat competitive, and often many restrictions come into play. In many cases interesting 'connoisseur's' choices will be liked by your opponents even if you're beating them by a large margin. This will not only increase your soft scores (when applicable) but make for a better game for both players.

Therion wrote:

4+ cover saves on all the tanks helps a lot when I'm not going first

So that's guaranteed? 4+ cover saves on all the tanks? How do you presume to achieve that?

All in all, although I rather like the TL AC on BA, the TL HF with a single HK missile is the more flexible and points efficient choice. You could fit a lot more into a 1750p list than this. As far as the Vindicators go, they're so hit and miss that you should avoid them altogether and go with Devs or Auto/Las Preds.

I think this list could give IG a run for their money.

All SW/BA Razorspam variations could give IG a run for their money when the stars are aligned correctly and the IG army is built incorrectly. Mephiston is the extra 'victory condition' for the Blood Angels in addition to shooting, while for SW it is the turbo TWC lord(s) and small TWC squads with PFs in addition to normal spam style shooting. However, arguably, it doesn't change the fact that a well built IG army is the favorite there, regardless of who starts. I say this as mainly an SW/BA player, that eventhough your list here has 10 vehicles (6 AV11, 4 AV13) and my own 1.75K pure mech BA list has 10 (4 AV11 6 AV13 if I'm not using missile Devs), IG will bring 15 AV12 vehicles into the same points value. You do realise that your list has a pathetic 10 weapons that can hurt tanks. My 1.75K IG list has 48 anti-tank heavy weapons and 12 BS4 meltaguns. The numbers speak for themselves, especially as tons of those weapons are twin linked and/or fire multiple shots. As far as range is concerned, it's you who is hopelessly outranged, not the IG, and when you come into your AC range their meltas will also come into play.

I wish you good luck and hope that you aren't kidding yourself about it not being an uphill battle against a perfected leafblower.

Fair enough. This list was built with TLAC's in mind, as I've done quite a few TLHF+meltaspam lists, but I'll playtest a couple more games without making any huge changes.

ML devs w/ a priest are more reliable and better at suppressing, but the list was an experiment, and I wanted to see how the vindis work out with the TLAC's.

BTW, are you going to the Riihimäki tournament by any chance? You have a sotavasara account?

Fair enough. This list was built with TLAC's in mind, as I've done quite a few TLHF+meltaspam lists, but I'll playtest a couple more games without making any huge changes.

ML devs w/ a priest are more reliable and better at suppressing, but the list was an experiment, and I wanted to see how the vindis work out with the TLAC's.

BTW, are you going to the Riihimäki tournament by any chance? Onks sul sotavasara accounttia?

I'm not coming to that tournament (mainly) because of an exam the following week. I do have an account at sotavasara (same name), although I don't really post there. You can PM me here at Dakka if you want to discuss my SW/BA/IG armies/lists/metagame etc.

I think you should go ahead and play with the tl acs and the Vindis like you planned and see how it goes. It's a cool army regardless of anything I posted.

Its scary how many people commenting on this thread without having a clue about BA.

Skurk3n wrote:Its scary how many people commenting on this thread without having a clue about BA.

Yes sometimes people make claims without knowing the rules, but then again people who don't know the codex might give a fresh opinion. Ofcourse stating that you know the rules and really not knowing is a whole different matter...

the problem that i see with 2' range weapons is that if your opponent reacts correctly, you can see your tanks not making shots until your turn 2.

I think if you can strategically make up for that, it can easily become a game of dice rolls and not a game of who has a better army list

Skurk3n wrote:Its scary how many people commenting on this thread without having a clue about BA.

A one line comment like this doesn't really add anything to the discussion here, if you have a point to make that you think something could/should be done differently then please elaborate on the idea. A one line post like this doesn't really do anything except raise people's hackles.

Something to consider with that 2' range comment is that Blood Angels effectively have a 3' rane with Assault cannons as all Rhino chassis are fast. An army like this is mean and rather unforgiving with how fast it is. Played right, it'll make just about anyone cry.

I like the overall list and is close to one I run. In my experience with TLAC, rending is rare and not as good as it sounds on paper. Against enemy infantry and light armor it is really nice. Usually I end up getting no rending shots at all. I'm running 2 Baal's in my list with the TLAC, using their scout is nice to get those shots off. I also give them HB sponsons, so after the first turn they can still kill. If outflanking they will brutalize enemy troops. I run half of my RB's as TLLC to deal with enemy armor. It is less shots total, but much better at killing armor. I've had several turn one dreadnought kills from across the board. Meph is cool, but probably not best in this list. I think a regular libby would be better and can help protect your vehicles. My army is different in that I run Seth with HG in a RB. This one does not have anything special and usually goes forward 18, pop smoke, and then they assault on turn 2. They will draw most enemy fire from the other RB's and help out a lot. Plus in my last game they took on ten Chaos termies and Chaos Lord. Thanks to great dice on my side and not so great on my opponent we only lost two HG. I would not run Seth for your list, mine also has some rhino assault squads and priest. So my goal is more to get in range to assault fast. My long range guns will stay back and try to claim objectives in the last turns.
I also like the idea of using a Pred for better fire power, just having 2 Baals and 2 regular preds should give you a nice AV 13 wall to run your RB's behind. You could stagger them to make sure the RB's get cover saves.

I must say I support the Dev's in place of the Vindis. I have been a big fan of the Vindicator's due to their fear factor. For me they are a magnet for enemy fire, but when it all comes down to it, so will your Dev's but with an FnP bubble, they will be able to take the pain. Keep us posted on how the play testing goes though.

After playing several games, I'm probably gonna drop the vindis for devs, just because they are always target number one and never end up doing much. But gonna have to playtest even more before I finalize the list, as I'm probably going to take it to a tournament in 3 weeks.

I'm interested in how your final list looks like. I'm trying to perfect my BA mech list as well.

Every time I field Vindicators, like you have, they seem to disappoint more and more since they draw so much hate.

syypher wrote:I'm interested in how your final list looks like. I'm trying to perfect my BA mech list as well.

Every time I field Vindicators, like you have, they seem to disappoint more and more since they draw so much hate.

It's like a single hammerhead. It'll often be the target of hate, but atleast you can be pretty sure where the sternguard will be drop podding down to.

haizelhoff wrote:

syypher wrote:I'm interested in how your final list looks like. I'm trying to perfect my BA mech list as well.

Every time I field Vindicators, like you have, they seem to disappoint more and more since they draw so much hate.

It's like a single hammerhead. It'll often be the target of hate, but atleast you can be pretty sure where the sternguard will be drop podding down to.

Sternguard? I don't think his last list he posted had a Sternguard in it...Are you talking about as our anti-tank or something?

As a Dark Eldar player, I can honestly say that's I am faster than you. lollol

syypher wrote:

haizelhoff wrote:

syypher wrote:I'm interested in how your final list looks like. I'm trying to perfect my BA mech list as well.

Every time I field Vindicators, like you have, they seem to disappoint more and more since they draw so much hate.

It's like a single hammerhead. It'll often be the target of hate, but atleast you can be pretty sure where the sternguard will be drop podding down to.

Sternguard? I don't think his last list he posted had a Sternguard in it...Are you talking about as our anti-tank or something?

He means the opponents sternguard dropping down wherever your vindicators are lol

syypher wrote:

Sternguard? I don't think his last list he posted had a Sternguard in it...Are you talking about as our anti-tank or something?

I was merely referring, that if you are playing a game where your opponent has podding sternguard and you have a single vindicator or hammerhead, you can be sure that those sternguard will come down next to that tank. I wasn't referring to anyones list, just the fear factor these tanks seem to have.

I would try the devs in plays of vindis aswell, Jabbdo.

DavetheDM wrote:As a Dark Eldar player, I can honestly say that's I am faster than you. lollol

Damn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A list including devs:


Mephiston 250

Sanguinary Priest 50

5 man assault squad, meltagun, infernus pistol, remove packs 125
Razorback, TLAC, dozer 60

5 man assault squad, meltagun, infernus pistol, remove packs 125
Razorback, TLAC, dozer 60

5 man assault squad, meltagun, infernus pistol, remove packs 125
Razorback, TLAC, dozer 60

5 man assault squad, meltagun, infernus pistol, remove packs 125
Razorback, TLAC, dozer 60

5 man assault squad, meltagun, infernus pistol, remove packs 125
Razorback, TLAC, dozer 60

Baal Predator, TLAC, dozer blade, hunter killer 130

Baal Predator, TLAC, dozer blade, hunter killer 130

(5) Devastator squad, 4 Missile Launchers 130

(5) Devastator squad, 4 Missile Launchers 130

= 1745

The list now has a firebase w/ FnP, but loses the pieplate's from the vindis. 5pts left over.

Maybe hunterkillers on the baals for side shot goodness?

Thats probably the best option, then 5 searchlights or something with the 5pts left over. (Why the feth dont BA get searchlights standard???)