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Smitty0305 wrote:So ur saying to add 3 bright lances to serpents. Thats fine but ive been under the impression that bls werent worth the points on a bs3 platform.

2, actually. On the remaining SG Serpent and on the DA Serpent. So everything in the list has some way of hurting both vehicles and infantry, either through their squad or their transport. They're not worth their points. But then Wave Serpents aren't worth their points either, and that doesn't stop Eldar players from basing their list around them.

Smitty0305 wrote:As far as the lances on walkers I disagree.

No offense to the one who suggested this, but Brightlances on War walkers are a waste of their killing potential and not playing to their strengths at all. Scatterlasers or shuriken cannons if you're starved for points. There are better places in our army to be fielding other Eldar heavy weapons.

Gorechild wrote:

Smitty0305 wrote:Serpents Dont Need Stones, Its mathmatically a WASTE OF POINTS. The Chance of them penetrating, and rolling a 2, is less than 1%. Im not spending points on a 1% scenario and I dont know any good eldar player that would. If you can mathmatically show me that stones on 10 Grav Tanks would be a good use of points go ahead, but mathmatically you cant slow down Wave Serpents "easily" the percent is very low, espeically for 10.

Firstly there are more ways to shake a vehicle than penetrating and rolling a 2, glancing and rolling a 4 does the same (glancing with AP1 and rolling a 3, using any one of the multitude of weapons that glance/pen a vehicle on a set value) and glancing av12 isn't hard. I'm not saying to put them on all 10 vehicles, that would be a waste, but the dragons could do with it as a minimum.


As yorkskargrimironklaw said, I dont think you can really help somone who's purely relying on maths and can't seem to take many comments on board.

Putting stones on the Dragons transports makes sense ill try to squueze the points in.

Shuri cannon + EML serpent > scatter laser serpent, 'nuf said.

Fail list is fail - you spammed the wrong serpent build for your troops.

Dracos wrote:Shuri cannon + EML serpent > scatter laser serpent, 'nuf said.

Fail list is fail - you spammed the wrong serpent build for your troops.

when would my wave serpents not move atleast 12?

Every turn I wouldnt use one of those weapons which is a waste of points.

I assure you that Mathmatically an Autarch will do more in this list than a farseer would. Everything wounds on a 2, except for the templates. I cant justify doom for 7 wounds against space marines.

I gave the list a 6 because no Farseer. the Autarch does nothing for this list what is the point of a CC guy in a list totally lacking a CC element?

A Farseer (or preferably 2) would greatly increase the survivability of your boats, which lets face it is all that matters in this type of list.

Killing power is OK but again in this type of list killing power isn't hugely important. Long ranged AT however is very usefull and you're almost totally lacking in that which again cost you in the rating. The infantry can kill stuff at short range well but if you get them out then you are probably conceeding the game unless you've demobilised his army or isolated an element. Which you will really struggle to do with no long ranged AT...

So yes 10 Grav Tanks is a pain for some armies. And for those armies you should be able to draw objective games or win if there are enough objectives (4+ I'd say favours you). But with no reliable way to demechanise your opponent and pick of easy kill points I just can't see the list doing well enough. Whilst against the likes of razorspam you just won't have the survivability.

Smitty0305 wrote:

Dracos wrote:Shuri cannon + EML serpent > scatter laser serpent, 'nuf said.

Fail list is fail - you spammed the wrong serpent build for your troops.

when would my wave serpents not move atleast 12?

Every turn I wouldnt use one of those weapons which is a waste of points.

I see you don't understand why its better. If you need the AT, the EML can still be fired at long range while moving 12". If you don't need AT, you can move 12 and fire the EML blast and the cannon. Sometimes you won't need to move 12", and so having both weapons to fire can put out some hurt.

the EML/shuri cannon build is better IMO.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dracos wrote:

Smitty0305 wrote:

Dracos wrote:Shuri cannon + EML serpent > scatter laser serpent, 'nuf said.

Fail list is fail - you spammed the wrong serpent build for your troops.

when would my wave serpents not move atleast 12?

Every turn I wouldnt use one of those weapons which is a waste of points.

I see you don't understand why its better. If you need the AT, the EML can still be fired at long range while moving 12". If you don't need AT, you can move 12 and fire the EML blast and the cannon. Sometimes you won't need to move 12", and so having both weapons to fire can put out some hurt.

the EML/shuri cannon build is better IMO.

ill see if the points allow to add some emls.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FlingitNow wrote:

I assure you that Mathmatically an Autarch will do more in this list than a farseer would. Everything wounds on a 2, except for the templates. I cant justify doom for 7 wounds against space marines.

I gave the list a 6 because no Farseer. the Autarch does nothing for this list what is the point of a CC guy in a list totally lacking a CC element?

A Farseer (or preferably 2) would greatly increase the survivability of your boats, which lets face it is all that matters in this type of list.

Killing power is OK but again in this type of list killing power isn't hugely important. Long ranged AT however is very usefull and you're almost totally lacking in that which again cost you in the rating. The infantry can kill stuff at short range well but if you get them out then you are probably conceeding the game unless you've demobilised his army or isolated an element. Which you will really struggle to do with no long ranged AT...

So yes 10 Grav Tanks is a pain for some armies. And for those armies you should be able to draw objective games or win if there are enough objectives (4+ I'd say favours you). But with no reliable way to demechanise your opponent and pick of easy kill points I just can't see the list doing well enough. Whilst against the likes of razorspam you just won't have the survivability.

an autarch makes the army an effective reserve army.

Farseers really dont do much especially in this list with flamers and most weapons that wound on2.

As far as anti armor its more problems with the eldar codex then problems with this list. Most eldar armies have less anti tank. If I feel I need more anti tank I can always add more rockets to the serpents its not hard.

I feel that 3 fd squads and 3 prisms can level most mech in an army. If I encounter an extreme army ill struggle but I should be fine with what I have.

Im confident that I can pop razorbacks rhinos and chimeras with 28 tl scatter lazerz.

Yeah, the Autarch is an obvious asset for Reserving.

Farseers really dont do much especially in this list with flamers and most weapons that wound on2.

Smitty0305 wrote:I feel that 3 fd squads and 3 prisms can level most mech in an army. If I encounter an extreme army ill struggle but I should be fine with what I have.

Im confident that I can pop razorbacks rhinos and chimeras with 28 tl scatter lazerz.

You don't have 28 TL scatter lazers, you have 7 TL scatter lazers which gives you 28 shots total. 28 shots hitting 75% of the time gives you 21 hits, and you need 5 to glance and 6 to pen a razor/rhino. So you can expect 3.5 glances and 3.5 pens when firing at full strength a turn, assuming no cover. That is not anything special for full strength shooting @ 2k points. You firedragons add significantly to this, but not in an alpha strike or reusable way.

I don't think the farseer is required in this list, but then again I just don't think storm guardian spam is the best eldar can do anyways.

I really don't know what to say.

I don't know Eldar, nor how well most of their units/weapons work, nor have I seen much batreps from their perspective. Bear in mind I have unfortunately been beaten by the bane that is the "Flyin' Seer Council-O-Doom" Bikedar list. That aside though I have heard that Mechdar is quite the deadly force, and is used as much as the aforementioned Bikedar, so that puts some points up. What's sorta putting me off from this list is the use of flamers, and enough people here know the list weaknesses that present themselves when flamers are about, so explaining the obvious and probably already mentioned (as I stopped reading when the first signs of this thread was sinking into flame war were apparent) problems need not any explanation.

Dracos wrote:

Smitty0305 wrote:I feel that 3 fd squads and 3 prisms can level most mech in an army. If I encounter an extreme army ill struggle but I should be fine with what I have.

Im confident that I can pop razorbacks rhinos and chimeras with 28 tl scatter lazerz.

You don't have 28 TL scatter lazers, you have 7 TL scatter lazers which gives you 28 shots total. 28 shots hitting 75% of the time gives you 21 hits, and you need 5 to glance and 6 to pen a razor/rhino. So you can expect 3.5 glances and 3.5 pens when firing at full strength a turn, assuming no cover. That is not anything special for full strength shooting @ 2k points. You firedragons add significantly to this, but not in an alpha strike or reusable way.

I don't think the farseer is required in this list, but then again I just don't think storm guardian spam is the best eldar can do anyways.

The alternative is bladestormed avengers.
Is there a reason you favor them?

The storm guardians cause alot of wounds that negate cover and are cheaper than das.

Whats ur opinion?

Keep in mind I don't play eldar, I only have experience talking (quite in depth) with a couple very strong (often tourny winning) eldar players. DAVU is the current favorite of the strongest mech eldar player around here. I tend to agree, the infantry is not strong, its the serpent. Sure the infantry can get their round of shooting off, but generally that's it.

DAVU seems to be the way to go for mech eldar. If you don't like DAVU then trying a combination of the bladestorming DA and Storm guardians. Storm guardians have to get right beside their target to get their flamer hits, which will often result in the squad going bye-bye. Bladestorming DA are not as vulnerable when they get out.

an autarch makes the army an effective reserve army.

Farseers really dont do much especially in this list with flamers and most weapons that wound on2.

As far as anti armor its more problems with the eldar codex then problems with this list. Most eldar armies have less anti tank. If I feel I need more anti tank I can always add more rockets to the serpents its not hard.

I feel that 3 fd squads and 3 prisms can level most mech in an army. If I encounter an extreme army ill struggle but I should be fine with what I have.

Im confident that I can pop razorbacks rhinos and chimeras with 28 tl scatter lazerz.

1 autarch doesn't really make for a hugely effective reserve army and again doesn't explain why you've wasted points gearing him for CC...

Your 2nd point illustrates you've no idea how to use Eldar as a Farseer is vital to this sort of list. SWapoping the Autarch for a Farseer would be massive in this list. Getting Eldrad and a 2nd Seer for the rather pointsless storm guardians would help it further.

Yes adding EMLs to the Wave Serpents would improve the list.

The FDs are 1 shot and the Prisms aren't really great at AT as you've not enough shots output to reliably even take down 1 tank a turn with them.

So that's two people now that have said that a Farseer is required in this list, but not one can say why. Real helpful.

@OP: There are about 2-3 ways that Eldar can be really effectively run: Jetseers, Standard Mech and the reserve list. The HQs for those in order are: Jetseers, Seers in Wave Serpents, and double Autarch.

If you are trying for the reserve style with the autarchs, you have to make some fundamental changes to the list. A double autarch list is what won 'Ard Boyz three years ago, and features a very similar list with a few changes you will need to make:

-Your troops drop completely and become 5-man Avenger squads in Serpents, basically the cheapest mobile scoring unit you can have.
-Falcons, rather than Fire Prisms will serve you better.
-Vipers could also be useful, but your priority is your fire dragons and troops.

Basically, the way the reserve list works is to never engage the enemy, but basically zipping around the bored and generally being annoying as hell to deal with. Your goal is to put the opponent on tilt and when he overreaches you converge on that element of the list. You are denying targets constantly and grabbing what you can, when you can.

You have a fairly strong objective game as you can tank shock things off of locations from a ridiculous distance.

Hope that helps with reframing your choices. If you do not want to be playing that style of list, then yes, you want to be running the Farseer(s) in wave serpents along with Fire Prisms, and focusing on a stronger shooting game. Keep in mind though that it is a bit of a joke to try and outshoot Space Wolves or Imperial Guard, which is why I really do not put a lot of faith in that style of list now. Funny enough, the effectiveness of Jetseer is seeing a real comeback lately.

So that's two people now that have said that a Farseer is required in this list, but not one can say why. Real helpful.

Becuase the survivability of the tanks is paramount to this list and Farseers can be hugely helpful for that. Yes Guide and Doom will largely do nothing for this list (though the SG squads would benefit greatly from doom). Fortune however can be vital in turn 5,6 and 7 for any Eldar player using mechdar.

Basically, the way the reserve list works is to never engage the enemy, but basically zipping around the bored and generally being annoying as hell to deal with. Your goal is to put the opponent on tilt and when he overreaches you converge on that element of the list. You are denying targets constantly and grabbing what you can, when you can.

This tactic actually works better with Farseers as you don't need to come on en masse as you're not trying to alphastrike or even engage the opponent. Thus again the Farseer(s) fortuning the Wave Serpents that can be shot at and thus making your opponent get more and more frustrated. A fortuned Falcon with Holofields is about the most annoying thing in the game to shoot at.

O

Fearspect wrote:So that's two people now that have said that a Farseer is required in this list, but not one can say why. Real helpful.

@OP: There are about 2-3 ways that Eldar can be really effectively run: Jetseers, Standard Mech and the reserve list. The HQs for those in order are: Jetseers, Seers in Wave Serpents, and double Autarch.

If you are trying for the reserve style with the autarchs, you have to make some fundamental changes to the list. A double autarch list is what won 'Ard Boyz three years ago, and features a very similar list with a few changes you will need to make:

-Your troops drop completely and become 5-man Avenger squads in Serpents, basically the cheapest mobile scoring unit you can have.
-Falcons, rather than Fire Prisms will serve you better.
-Vipers could also be useful, but your priority is your fire dragons and troops.

Basically, the way the reserve list works is to never engage the enemy, but basically zipping around the bored and generally being annoying as hell to deal with. Your goal is to put the opponent on tilt and when he overreaches you converge on that element of the list. You are denying targets constantly and grabbing what you can, when you can.

You have a fairly strong objective game as you can tank shock things off of locations from a ridiculous distance.

Hope that helps with reframing your choices. If you do not want to be playing that style of list, then yes, you want to be running the Farseer(s) in wave serpents along with Fire Prisms, and focusing on a stronger shooting game. Keep in mind though that it is a bit of a joke to try and outshoot Space Wolves or Imperial Guard, which is why I really do not put a lot of faith in that style of list now. Funny enough, the effectiveness of Jetseer is seeing a real comeback lately.

why double autarch? Do you re roll reserve rolls?

Do you have the ard boyZ list by chance?

IIRC you get a +1 from each Autarch, so with +2 you are hiting your reserves on a 2+ for turn 2.

Out of all the posters here, Fearspect seems to have the firmest grasp of the eldar codex (in terms of mech lists at least). Falcons do seem like the better choice than prisms.

2 autarchs + 3xDavu EML serpents + 3x davu BL Falcons+ 3x FD EML Serpents should be pretty close to 2k.

You can give the Autarchs a melta gun and just toss them in with fire dragons too. I think that is the best wargear you can pick for them.

Dracos wrote:IIRC you get a +1 from each Autarch, so with +2 you are hiting your reserves on a 2+ for turn 2.

Out of all the posters here, Fearspect seems to have the firmest grasp of the eldar codex (in terms of mech lists at least). Falcons do seem like the better choice than prisms.

2 autarchs + 3xDavu EML serpents + 3x davu BL Falcons+ 3x FD EML Serpents should be pretty close to 2k.

That list is defanantly a better anti mech list.

Where is the anti infantry? Do mechdar generally ignore foot troops or what?

What is a role of 5 das besides scoring?

Shuriken cannon + eml can put out some wounds on infantry. The DAVU are really just to make the vehicle scoring. You can get them out to shoot if you have to, but generally that is a last resort. 6 serpents all with 3 S6 shots and a small blast will work down a horde pretty well. Then you tank shock objectives FTW.

I think the guardian squads are squishy and weak, their wave serpents make them squishy, weak, and overly protected for their value. This list has the 3 x dragon approach and 3 x prism, both of which are strong but spammy, which I hate, but I just can't get over all those guardians. Also, an Autarch as the only HQ?? please tell me why the a plain old doomseer isn't just superior? If it's for the reserves roll, then don't bother with all the wargear and just take him for that. Wow, down one fusion gun in a list full of dragons and a couple more S3 cc attacks in a list full of storm guardians... big loss? hardly. I gave it a 6 because it is above average due to the spammyness of its two strong points, but not really much above average because of the weakness of its squishy troops and less-than-ideal commander.

yeenoghu wrote:I think the guardian squads are squishy and weak, their wave serpents make them squishy, weak, and overly protected for their value. This list has the 3 x dragon approach and 3 x prism, both of which are strong but spammy, which I hate, but I just can't get over all those guardians. Also, an Autarch as the only HQ?? please tell me why the a plain old doomseer isn't just superior? If it's for the reserves roll, then don't bother with all the wargear and just take him for that. Wow, down one fusion gun in a list full of dragons and a couple more S3 cc attacks in a list full of storm guardians... big loss? hardly. I gave it a 6 because it is above average due to the spammyness of its two strong points, but not really much above average because of the weakness of its squishy troops and less-than-ideal commander.

doom would be neet but most of weapons and templates wound on 2s

the autarch is 100 points thats an undercosted hq. A fusion gun and all the doodads are 25 points and honestly I dont know where else I need those points.

What is more effective than storm guardians? DAS dont survive any better and cause less wounds.

A squad shooting from 18" away is indeed more survivable than the one zooming into the assault range and then not being able to assault because the vehicles moved beforehand. So they flame and then they die. x3.

Araenion wrote:A squad shooting from 18" away is indeed more survivable than the one zooming into the assault range and then not being able to assault because the vehicles moved beforehand. So they flame and then they die. x3.

If you are assaulting with any Eldar other than Jetseer squads, you're doing it wrong.

With the latest FAQ, I'm surprised I'm not seeing things like Vectored Engines. When 2 out of 3 missions require you to take objectives, you need to be able to take objectives. If I were the opponent regardless of my list, I'm looking to place my objectives in terrain. This creates an additional obstacle for mechanized armies, especially skimmer heavy armies. The Eldar player can't realistically bail his Guardians out hold an objective, which leaves the player to try and grab it late game. If the tank goes down, the troops inside will soon be dead as they are too soft. Random game length can be the ultimate killer for this list as well. I've lost count how many times I've lost a game b/c it went to a turn 7 b/c I had to gamble on random game length.

2-3 Flamer templates from Guardians/Warlock out of a tank isn't scary; 12-15 Burnas firing out of a Battlewagon is scary. The former kills 4-5 models; the latter kills squads.

What it ultimately comes down to is player skill. Lists don't win games except against novice players. Good players will win with nearly any list. Put this list in the hands of a very good player and he'll likely win. Have a less skilled player use it and watch him get tabled.

Smitty0305 wrote:

yeenoghu wrote:I think the guardian squads are squishy and weak, their wave serpents make them squishy, weak, and overly protected for their value. This list has the 3 x dragon approach and 3 x prism, both of which are strong but spammy, which I hate, but I just can't get over all those guardians. Also, an Autarch as the only HQ?? please tell me why the a plain old doomseer isn't just superior? If it's for the reserves roll, then don't bother with all the wargear and just take him for that. Wow, down one fusion gun in a list full of dragons and a couple more S3 cc attacks in a list full of storm guardians... big loss? hardly. I gave it a 6 because it is above average due to the spammyness of its two strong points, but not really much above average because of the weakness of its squishy troops and less-than-ideal commander.

doom would be neet but most of weapons and templates wound on 2s

the autarch is 100 points thats an undercosted hq. A fusion gun and all the doodads are 25 points and honestly I dont know where else I need those points.

What is more effective than storm guardians? DAS dont survive any better and cause less wounds.

DA at least get a save against the most frequently seen gun in the game, and 18" is much better. As far as the extra points from the autarch's minimal weapons, I would have thought a farseer with ward runes and doom would be nice, because so many armies have powerful psykers nowadays, ward runes are practically a must-have in my opinion. Hey to each his own though.

Mathhammer all you like, Stones are a necessity almost all the time. Not using them is a calculated risk or a fail-tactic.

Not using runes of warding competitively is a fail-tactic.

Relying on 3 minsquads of dragons for AV13+ counter is a fail-tactic. The 3 prisms are good, but let's face it you've got no stones, you've got no holo-fields, they can get perma-shaken if you're lucky, and blurped by long range anti-tank. Hydras, ML dev/longfangs, the ever-fun living lightning....

I use an Autarch, but using one as a solo HQ that is more expensive than a Farseer with one decent power and runes would be is just ... sad.

This list is decent because it's got a lot of threats to counter. It will, however, suck against most competitive lists that people have mentioned.

Fearspect wrote:If you are assaulting with any Eldar other than Jetseer squads, you're doing it wrong.

Okay, but why are you quoting me on this? I never said they should assault.

Zain60 wrote:Mathhammer all you like, Stones are a necessity almost all the time. Not using them is a calculated risk or a fail-tactic.

Not using runes of warding competitively is a fail-tactic.

Relying on 3 minsquads of dragons for AV13+ counter is a fail-tactic. The 3 prisms are good, but let's face it you've got no stones, you've got no holo-fields, they can get perma-shaken if you're lucky, and blurped by long range anti-tank. Hydras, ML dev/longfangs, the ever-fun living lightning....

I use an Autarch, but using one as a solo HQ that is more expensive than a Farseer with one decent power and runes would be is just ... sad.

This list is decent because it's got a lot of threats to counter. It will, however, suck against most competitive lists that people have mentioned.

can you be specific. Add stones or holofields to which units.

If i run a doomseer do I run an autarch as well or just a doomseer.