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Pilau Rice wrote:

purplefood wrote:Mostif not all chaptersknow whotheir primarch is.
The AdMech do keep lables on thing they don't just hand out gene-seed randomly they know exactly which gene-seed comes from who.
The Blood Ravens (Who don't know who their primarchs is)
have a large hole in their fluff due to this since the AdMech could just test their gene-seed and find out.

Spoiler:

THE DARK FOUNDING

Not all the foundings of Space Marine Chapters are recorded in exact detail. However, the Adeptus Terra maintains a single bank of original gene-seed from every single Chapter ever created since the Horus Heresy. There is one notable exception: the Thirteenth Founding, also known as the Dark Founding. No-one knows how many Chapters were created by the Dark Founding or what became of them. Perhaps the secret lies in some deep vault in the record office of the Adeptus Terra. Maybe the Space Marines of the Dark Founding are still out there somewhere, waiting to return to the world that created them.

Kinda also backs up how traitor geneseed could have been used in the 21st Founding

I don't see how it has anything to do with the 21st founding. Also all the AdMech need to do to find ot the primarch is test the chapters gene-seed samples.
Admittedly they won't know what foundng but they will know the primarch.
Also it vaguely backs up possible traitor gene-seed use but they could still just test a sample.

Mars isn't the only Forge world with a geneseed vault though. The space amrine omnibus speaks of others that chaos forces occasionally steal from to create more marines.

BluntmanDC wrote:

Commander Endova wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:

Commander Endova wrote:First, the Black Templars are descended from the Imperial Fists. Second, the Black Templars don;t really do successor chapters. They just make new crusades under the Black Templars banner.

New chapters are not formed like those during the 2nd founding, the do not 'bud off' from a parent chapter, new chapters are made on Mars using the geneseed vault. So it is perfectly believable that the chapter could be a successor of the Black Templar. Add to this that geneseed has tiny genetic change over generations it means that the Black Templar geneseed would be different to the Imperial Fists.

1. it is lumped together by primarch, not chapter. 2. There is nothing to suggest that the Black Templars gene-seed has mutated, and if it had, it would surely be seen as some mark of taint(3.). Geneseeds do not mutate without cause, especially not one as pure and stable as Dorns. 4. a Primarch's Geneseed is selected, and the Chapter is founded.

5. the amount of geneseed tithe the Black Templars send back to Mars is debatable. The amount of Battle Brothers under their banner suggests they send very little, if any

1. source please.
2. the imperial fists, rogal dorn's chapter has a geneseed mutation, they are missing the Missing Betcher's Gland and Sus-an Membrane. succesor chapters can have different geneseeds to their parent chapter e.g. the flesh tearers geneseed mutation is alot more prominent than the blood angels.
3.lots of chapters, even the oldest and most loyal, have minor geneseed issues.
4. sourse please.
5. more marines more geneseed, each chapter has to give 5% or they get hounded until they do, so the black templars in theory give more geneseed than others.

1 and 4: Page 8, C:SM.
2. This an an accepted mutation that has been around for thousands of years, which still affects the Black Templars. I'd ask you to cite where it says the Black Templars have any further mutation. Granted, the Flesh Tearers geneseed is degrading for some reason, but they probably aren't making more Blood Angels successors from Flesh Tearers gene seed, are they?
3. Precisely. And the mutations of these old, loyal chapters were accepted by the Emperor, or hidden, when it became relevant, such as the Red Thirst/Black Rage and the Wulfen Curse.
5. yes, they do. But the exact number of Black Templars Battle Brothers is a hard thing to pin down (consequently, so is their 5% gene-tithe), which again, is why they're under so much scrutiny from the Inquisition.

purplefood wrote:I don't see how it has anything to do with the 21st founding. Also all the AdMech need to do to find ot the primarch is test the chapters gene-seed samples.

Sorry going off course a bit here, apologies, it was discussed on another thread how they would get the geneseed for the 21st Founding.

This part

the Adeptus Terra maintains a single bank of original gene-seed from every single Chapter ever created since the Horus Heresy.

This I guess explains how they would obtain it.

purplefood wrote:Admittedly they won't know what foundng but they will know the primarch.

There is one notable exception: the Thirteenth Founding, also known as the Dark Founding. No-one knows how many Chapters were created by the Dark Founding or what became of them

The 13th one they don't even know which Gene seed was used or as it says, how many chapters were created. We do know of 1 though and that's the Exorcists.

All they have to do is test the gene-seed. They won't know that it's a 13th founding chapter but they will know the primarch. That's why it's faintly absurd that a chapter doesn't know it's primarch.

I like the name and other stuff!! consider that the name has to be translated in Italian cos probably he's going to play WH40k in italy( purificatori... a little lame but not so much)... Just remove black templars as founding chapter and put Imperial fists

purplefood wrote:All they have to do is test the gene-seed. They won't know that it's a 13th founding chapter but they will know the primarch. That's why it's faintly absurd that a chapter doesn't know it's primarch.

If that's the case then why don't the Blood Ravens ask the adMech to provide some photocopies or pdfs of the results?

A new Chapter cannot be founded overnight. A single suitable gene-seed must be selected for each zygote

It could be that some chapters have a mixture of geneseed, the Relictors are thought to be made up of Dark Angels and Ultramarines Geneseed.

The source of the Relictors' geneseed is largely based on gene stock taken from the laboratorium on Mars and is thought to be composed of that grown from the Ultramarine and Dark Angels.

So which is their Primarch? Lion El'Guilliman?

I do get what you are saying that through the Geneseed you should be able to trace directly back to the Primarch in most cases that's correct but it's not the case for all.

or Roboute Guil'Johnson!

@ Commander Endova: maybe it would help if you wrote things clearer, instead of getting angry everytime you get corrected.

If the chapter is 3rd generation (as it wear) IF and played like the IF it would make sense to have the IF as their parent chapter, but if they are organised like the black templars it would make more sense to report their parents as black templars.

Geneseed changes over time.


if a chapter has been divergent from the original source for a significant amount of time then it would be different enough to make it tough to tell the exact origin.


there are Impierial Fist successors that haven't lost their Beltcher's Gland or the Sus'an Membrain. it is belived that these Organs were lost after the 2nd founding.


the fact that all Geneseed came from the Emperor means that there would be massive similarities between all Geneseed.



if a chapter has significant genetic divergence then it would be impossable to tell the origin.


Geneseed can also get mixed with other Geneseed causing Genes to get totally scrambled. good for diversity, but difficult for tracking.


Each individual Marine initiate adds his own Human Genes to his Progenoids too. a minor addition, but it could add up over time.

It could add up over time. But there would be enough genetic markers to tell. We can do DNA tests today and find people that are very far related.
It should be possible.


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Pilau Rice wrote:

purplefood wrote:All they have to do is test the gene-seed. They won't know that it's a 13th founding chapter but they will know the primarch. That's why it's faintly absurd that a chapter doesn't know it's primarch.

If that's the case then why don't the Blood Ravens ask the adMech to provide some photocopies or pdfs of the results?

That's what i'm saying. There is a massive hole in the Blood Ravens fluff because they could simply test the Gene-seed.

prehaps the Blood Ravens do know and want to keep it a secret.

sure, the Admech could find out, but they do have more important things to do.

the Red Tape the IoM has in soooooooooooo huge and massive that it can take forever to sort through things.

Grey Templar wrote:prehaps the Blood Ravens do know and want to keep it a secret.

sure, the Admech could find out, but they do have more important things to do.

the Red Tape the IoM has in soooooooooooo huge and massive that it can take forever to sort through things.

I will accept both of those reasons as a decent argument.
It is indeed possible the Blood Ravens don't want anyone finding out especially if what is hinted at is true.
It isalso possible an SM chapter as old as the Blood Ravens could have an important Magos or 2 watching their backs on that point.

punkow wrote:or Roboute Guil'Johnson!

How about Robon El'Guillison

Grey Templar wrote:Geneseed changes over time.


if a chapter has been divergent from the original source for a significant amount of time then it would be different enough to make it tough to tell the exact origin.


there are Impierial Fist successors that haven't lost their Beltcher's Gland or the Sus'an Membrain. it is belived that these Organs were lost after the 2nd founding.


the fact that all Geneseed came from the Emperor means that there would be massive similarities between all Geneseed.



if a chapter has significant genetic divergence then it would be impossable to tell the origin.


Geneseed can also get mixed with other Geneseed causing Genes to get totally scrambled. good for diversity, but difficult for tracking.


Each individual Marine initiate adds his own Human Genes to his Progenoids too. a minor addition, but it could add up over time.

purplefood wrote:
That's what i'm saying. There is a massive hole in the Blood Ravens fluff because they could simply test the Gene-seed.

Yes, fair enough and what I am saying is that they have had 4 thousands years to do this, if it was that simple then why hasn't it be done. If the chapter is that inquisitive into its nature and that dedicated to knowledge and finding out their beginnings then why not just do a swab test. I'm saying that it isn't as easy as you say it is. I'm sure that the Blood Ravens would have at least some relationship with the AdMech to be able to go and ask them.

There is no fluff to say it isn't easy to find out but nor is there fluff to say that it's hard.

purplefood wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:prehaps the Blood Ravens do know and want to keep it a secret.

sure, the Admech could find out, but they do have more important things to do.

the Red Tape the IoM has in soooooooooooo huge and massive that it can take forever to sort through things.

I will accept both of those reasons as a decent argument.
It is indeed possible the Blood Ravens don't want anyone finding out especially if what is hinted at is true.

Yeah they seem good enough reasons or possibly, the Admech do know, but do not want to tell the Blood Ravens for the reasons above.

This topic went somewhat off-topic

Hey everyone, can someone reply to my original question. Is the name of my chapter bad? vote in ur next post

The Purifactors?
Purificators would be better IMO but go with the flow... that doesn't actually make sense.
It's your army you can call it Captain Jones's Christmas Frogs if you wanted to but if you're looking for good religious imagery that can be easily combined with firey-ness and the monk image marines have then you can't go wrong wih The Purificators
The Purifactors souns a bit off but go figure.

i like your name. go with it if you like it.

Thanks guys, about the monk thing, dam you have hit the spot because before i read it i edited the backround that is very in tone with that image. Read it again, i have updated trials of initiation and added a whole new section on gene seed.
Enjoy!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ps. i reduced the number to 200

Good job

Wow very nice, why the fights in the arena not death fights?

Ok, your new fluff.

Cloning is a nono. No chapter would waste their time to train and enhance individuals just to collect a sample to clone. otherwise they would just keep cloning the same samples over and over again.

Cloning is viewed(IIRC) as Tech Heresy as well. only selective breeding and manipulation are allowed.



Your Geneseed mutation/flaw is nice and fluffy and you can get that without cloning. Are you using the BA codex?

No, i know it sounds flesh tearer stuff but im a devout templar. About the cloning, never knew that its heresy but adds to the "dark truth" idea, and they train new individuals to clone because 1. If every sm looked alike they would arouse the suspicion of the inquisition. And 2. as new individuals are trained some might become better than the previous host.

the reason that cloning is banned is cos it leads to very bad things:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Replicae

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Afriel_Strain

the reason marines have the procedures they do (although now shrouded in ritual) is to maintain geneseed stability and a chapters longevity.

wow, very informative thanks Blunt.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well, consider the holy rage an effect of replicae, even with the chapter many breaktroughs in the art.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Added a new section on replicae.

Malice you going to answer my question?

Srry, i think someone asked that, simply because there is no point in uneccesery bloodshed.