Terminus wrote:Vindicares are garbage.

Moving on:

ImpGuardPanzies wrote:Thank you Mellon, that helped a lot. so i dont think i will be using deamon hunters anymroe. except for the assasins.

ImpGuardPanzies wrote:So after nex codex..not more vindicare? well that sucks balz, but ill still play old rules with my friends. otherwise i would have wasted money and they dont care. so as long as i have old rules right...untill tourney...

ImpGuardPanzies wrote:

Jaon wrote:Ive said it before, and I will say it again one million times. Wait for the codex.

I heard they were going to scrap deamon hunters.

And a vindicare is only 100 pts nothing else is an option. Ive read his page ten times over and never seen that he can only shoot 5 shots per game....

Jaon wrote:God I hope the rumours about GK jump infantry aren't true ;(

Release date:
Originally January, now looking more like March.

Organisation/fluff:
Codex: there is much less focus on Inquisition aspects, and no SoB. No Allies. A GK army.

No allies from/to other Codii. new fodder units in codex. not same as guard units. (penal legion troops are the fodder unit I was mentioning in the past, cause I know someone will ask)

Interesting bit here. Got to see some layout work on the new codex. I'll confirm the rumors of a fleshed out chapter org chart, but it's not your typical SM structure of 10 companies of 100 marines for sure.

The organization of GKs chapter being fleshed out has opened a number of new "roles"

The relation of Ordos Malleus to the Inquisition is also expanded upon

Officio Assassinorum also has an interesting fluff piece...albeit very short

To respond to the wishlisting of justicars being treated similar to Wolf guard, don't place bets on that.

It was apparent from my last contact Inq forces were still present...including storm troopers...but there are other new units there as well. From everything I've been told/heard the focus has definately shifted to GK. Not as many options for Inq, Assassins combined to a single unit with wargear to dictate functional role, Inq retinue changes that will effectively kill the tried and true power tactic of shooting everything in sight as it Deep Strikes in. The utter removal of use of allies from other codex books, or inclusion of units from this book with other armies (Self contained...no surprises there.) Overall I always felt the prior incarnation was inquisition with a dash of GK. The feel I have now is reverse of that...but there will still be very effective Inq builds to be had...so far as I know.

Special rules:
Combat squads were an option I know was playtested.

Some interesting Psychic abilities. just about all squads have psychic options. Heavy on they disabling side. Enemy psykers beware.

Not a lot of Mechanised. But quick to deploy.

Army wide. Daemonic Infestation makes summoned demons less instable?

The basic GK marine profile looks very similar to a SM sergeant.

A conversation earlier centered around an ability named "Out the Heretic" which could be used against non-daemon forces causing one unit to "count as" daemons. 'Out the Heretic' is well received by PT

While External Allies rules are gone by all accounts, it does not mean allies in the codex are gone. Inquisition forces ARE present, just not as dominant. And you will recognize others.

'Shrouding' basically unchanged...also known as nightfighting...one source suggests possible grant 6+ cover save (commentary: does this work with Annointed armor?)

'Rites of Exorcism' daemon units charging as if into difficult terrain.

'Aegis' enemy Psykers within 12" take psychic tests with +1d6

Chaos icons work to oppose GK units teleport ability. A unit with a chaos icon will block the ability of GK to teleport into battle within the icons area of influence. I'm hearing that there may also be other items that hinder this deployment tactic from other armies as well.

Wargear:
The new codex has new options (weapons, equipment, etc.) that will be included in those box sets.

Also, I understand there to be a standard 1 special weapon per 5 man squad, plus special options for the upgraded leader.

Yes, beyond psycannon and incinerator, there are 2 other special gk weapons I know were ptd...but these I can't go into detail on at this time. I'll say one had pretty poor response from the playtest group, but there could be some nice tactics developed to make it effective if it did move forward.

Corrected Psycannon profile:
24" A3 AP3 S6, no invulnerable saves, pinning test for units or models with psykers.
or 36" H1 AP4 S5 5" blast, no invulnerable saves, no cover saves. (does not cause psyker pinning)

Incinerator, no profile changes noted: S5 AP4 A1 template, no invulnerable or cover saves.

NFWs: NFW lose the changing abilities based on rank of user. standardized to PA NFW is PW with special abilities vs Daemons, TA NFW is FW with same. I've seen "other" sites reporting I said nfw gave wound daemons on 2+. I never said that. Not sure where that is coming from. From what I know right now NFW will be +2S across the board as now, but PAGKs will all count as PW, and TAGKs will all count as FW. Then on top of that, all nfw gain additional capabilities vs daemons. Plus unit leaders may have master crafted NFW...not sure if it's upgrade or standard.

GK Annointed Armor: All GKs (TA, PA, AA, etc.) wear ornate armor which has been blessed and annointed to provide additional protection both physically and spiritually. Any GK may always Re-roll any failed armor, invulnerable, or cover saves. Annointed Armor is not wargear. Has point cost. Works with Storm Shield. Not as good at might seem...(aka something else to this rule I dont know yet)

The rumor I had earlier about "Annointed armor" got some additional legs with a small twist. Looks like this could be granted to a unit containing a Gk chaplain. Much like other chaplains elsewhere grant re-rolls on charges, the gk chaplains are rumored to grant counter attack and re-rolls of armor saves...caveat being the reroll is only 1st round of cc... It's a complex confirmation, and taken alone I'd pour salt on it, but given I've heard of the anointed armor prior and recent codexes have some charge related chaplain ability...I thought I'd go ahead and post it. It's definitely taking more realistic tones...

New options for Dreadnaughts including librarian. psycannon arm. Purge weapon...large pie plate, special abilities include forcing instability test for daemons, including Daemons of Chaos armies, pinning in other armies.

Army list:
Do not hold too tightly to past structures and expectations.

As far as TAGK as troops? I havent seen anything indicating this. However, I do recall a discussion of TAGK filling roles in two slots though, possible Heavy and Elite.
The GK jet bike sketches did not look at all like sammaels...no plasma gun. Knights on them has NFW in lance style. Very bullet bike rider stance...ie leaning forward over bike, not upright like marine bikes. Had the swept front faring, but not wing motifs. Looked like twin linked storm bolters under slung beneath handles. Very aggressive looking. Too bad they got axed.

according to a tiny bit I got overnight, GK TAs will have access to the standard marine upgrades, plus NFW, incinerators, psycannons, etc., of course. But he is saying the cyclone launcher for them will be arm mounted like their Storm Bolters. I'm very skeptical of this, but this source is close enough to know, so I thought I'd pass it along.

Inq lords are hq and unlock ISTs as troops
ISTs are elite otherwise
ISTs can take chimera or valkyrie as dedicated transport
Inq lord retinue looks more like imperial guard command characters with some seritors thrown in
Temple Assassins one entry in elite, one stat line, options allow for customization into temple variants...but the actual temples are only mentioned in fluff, so some special rules look lost
Demonhosts look to be out
In troops we have imperial guard conscripts...like an imperial guard platoon, but conscripts only
Death cult assassins still elite, larger unit sizes, though
Penal legion squad in troops, different than imperial guard codex entry
chimeras or valkyries as dt only, and only imperial guard
Valkyries only dedicated transport, no vendetta option
Hellhounds in fast, same as imperial guard, but not variants
Deathstrike launchers in heavy, same as imperial guard...replacing orbital strike

Also, some weird dynamics in the ruleset if you have both inq and gk hq present. But details were not given.

(Ed: so from this batch it looks like inq is going to be viable, but I question really this more from a why standpoint. If GW did this, only the hq really separates it much from imperial guard, but handicapped ig. Hope to see more soon once the nov nastiness ends. Damn de are blocking all my insight into the future...)
From what I've been able to gather, the codex has the following counts...caveats apply:

Including Special Characters, not including variant units eg. exterminator/demolisher

Hq: 8-9 entries
El: 6-7 entries
Tr: 6 entries
Fa: 7 entries
He: 8 Entries
Dt: 4 entries

Ive heard the Army list section is between 12-14 pages.

Playtesting:
GK 2000pt AL from Playtest:

HQ
Grand Master with Retinue
Named character

Elite
5-man TAGK squad + 2 spec weapons
Dreadought - unknown configuration

Troop
2x 5-man PAGK squad + 1 spec weapon + razorback
10-man ????? squad + chimera

Fast
Storm Raven

No Heavies

The Playtest list posted was played against 2000 points of Orks including nobs, mek with kuston force field, lots of boys in trukks, a BattleWagon and dread mob. It was Capture & Control with Dawn of War.

GKs held most in reserve.
PAGKS in Razorback came in turn 2 and moved to boys flank. 1 squad got tarpitted with boys, the other fought thru boys to take objective 1.
unknown unit had HQ attached, spent game trading shots with dread mob until TAGKS arrived to help.
TAGKs TP in turn 4 and later assaulted Dread mob. 4 standing at end of game.
The StormRaven took out one trukk turn 3 and the bw turn 5. Dread and HQ w retinue arrived in it and assaulted Nob mob. wiping it out in 1 round. then started after other boys.

It was reported as a pretty one sided battle. GKs nearly unassailable. GK win with 1 objective and second contested in turn 6. supposedly orks were close to 4:1 outnumbering GKs

Models:
The box sets should all be plastic.

The GK models are ornate.

The biggest issue you'll find with the TAs is scale. The new plastics are in scale with the other TA models. The metals are old scale sized. Its a noticable difference.

But even the AA marines look "bigger", though not to such a great extent, to me.

Once painted, the new models have better depth of detail IMO. And more small details not present in the metals. This is in both TA and AA. The best examples to look at are the Blood Angel plastics to understand how much detail can be crammed onto a figure, but still look good.

Plastics:
Storm Raven. obvious choice. Options for BA, GK and ??? (note, other sources say that a BA second wave containing storm raven and librarian/furioso dread are slated for a separate January release) I've had personal conversations with direct individuals, which would surprise me if the SR model was not a keystone of this release. I've personally seen a few mockups of the SR from the modelling teams, many more from the art team. I know what the final selected design is. It looks better than I imagined.

TA knights: 5 pack, Paladin upgrades, squad upgrades. Psycannon, NFW, SSTH, banner? Supposed options for all will be on sprue. Plus NFW will NOT all be halberds. But the exact nature of them was not revealed to me. If this pans out we could see a lot of weapon options in the sprue...a lot more than would be used. Assault Cannon, PsyCannon, Incinerator, SS, TH, NFWs, Cyclone launchers...seems like a lot to jam in, but if we look at SW and BA boxes those were loaded with bits. The GK TA sprues:

5 legs
6 torsos
8 heads
6 nfw
5 SB
unknown # Special Weapons (includeing SS), but if above holds it could be 6+
GK TA back banner
6-8 shoulder shields
12 shoulder pads
~12 upgrade bits (books, scrolls, crux terminus, etc.)
8 arm sets (sounds like the arms have no hands, similar to sanguinary guard)
4 hands (right/left?)
more?

PA knights: 10 pack, justicar upgrades, squad upgrades, extra bits. NFW, psycannon, incinerator, banner?

walker: There have been some rumors of a GK driven walker. I have not personally seen this in any incarnation. However, there is a boxed walker of some type. I suspect this is a dreadnaught box set that will also have bits for BA. (see above) I've seen other people posting rumors of a penitent engine style walker, with a PAGK driver...I have absolutely no confirmation of such a beast. However, if GW wanted to avoid the cries of "GK dont have Dreads, it isnt fluffy" that could be a way...

Tank: I have not seen mention of a GK troop transport. Rhino based with psycannon options has been in some PT. I list this as possible, but unlikely, 4 box sets of this size are about par for a release, 5 would be a surprise.

Blisters:
New Stern

New Chaplain?

Justicar upgrade character

Paladin upgrade character

Inquisition character

2 other blisters unknown contents

Other:

Later release of GK themed terrain set? Concepts are out and some "preview" shots are floating around if you hunt. Nothing more I can say on this.

Sentai_Sage wrote:
Still keeping my fingers crossed for Furious Charge or some other way to make 'em I5.

ImpGuardPanzies wrote:So the only way ig or sm will be able to use gk is to have a second detachment?

And as of now, where is the rule that states that ig and sm can use inquisition allies? my friend is stuck on the thought that i cant use them and havent been able to, d like to show him the rule while i still can.


And those rumors are sounding preattyy kew. cant wait for the codex.

Terminus wrote: Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sentai_Sage wrote:
Still keeping my fingers crossed for Furious Charge or some other way to make 'em I5.

I doubt there will be Furious Charge for models that are already S6 power weapons across the board, however one of those "debilitating" psychic powers mentioned could reduce enemy WS or I, so who knows. All I know is I can't friggin' wait.