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Avatar 720 wrote:

After all, with Chaos it isn't about strategies.

I very much beg to differ; without strategies a lot of Chaos attacks would have failed. The Black Crusades take a huge amount of planning, and there's also a little story in the rulebook about the Fall of Vilamus which proves that strategy is still very much in use.

The Black Crusades have all failed. Even the 13th, which is as close as they've come to a real victory, really didn't do that well.


Vilamus I'll give you, but I will point out that it wasn't really an assault planned by your standard Chaos forces. It was planned by Huron, not long after the whole Badab War. In addition, the Night Lords were heavily involved in the planning phase alongside of the Alpha Legion.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Forgeworld stuff almost never get included in new Codex releases, especially ones that havent passed the testing stages.

It they very much do. Pirhanas, Skyrays, Hydras, Medusas, Manticores, Valkyries, Leman Russ Executioners, etc?

The Black Crusades have all failed. Even the 13th, which is as close as they've come to a real victory, really didn't do that well.

No, they haven't. Abaddon's crusades haven't each been intended to reach Terra, each one is building upon each other. The Gothic War and 13th Black Crusade very much fulfilled Abaddons primary objectives for those wars.

I didn't realize Tau skimmers were space-capable, i thought they had to be inserted onto a planet by Tau dropships

Vaktathi wrote:

The Black Crusades have all failed. Even the 13th, which is as close as they've come to a real victory, really didn't do that well.

No, they haven't. Abaddon's crusades haven't each been intended to reach Terra, each one is building upon each other. The Gothic War and 13th Black Crusade very much fulfilled Abaddons primary objectives for those wars.

I didn't say that they were intended to reach Terra, now did I?

The 13th Black Crusade was intended to kick open the Cadian Gate and hold it open for a full-scale assault.

In that, he failed. They managed to disrupt troop movements, get troops onto the ground and fight on Cadia.
That's really all that was done.

Retribution wrote:I didn't realize Tau skimmers were space-capable, i thought they had to be inserted onto a planet by Tau dropships

Very limited capability. Basically: They can fall and control their fall.

Kanluwen wrote:After all, my personal and not necessarily factual opinion, with Chaos it isn't about strategies. It's about how important/highly ranked/highly feared, etc you are

Fixed that for you.

The idea that Chaos doesn’t use any sort of strategy is so ridiculously incorrect, it is laughable. Your opinion != Fact

Vaktathi wrote:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Forgeworld stuff almost never get included in new Codex releases, especially ones that havent passed the testing stages.

It they very much do. Pirhanas, Skyrays, Hydras, Medusas, Manticores, Valkyries, Leman Russ Executioners, etc?

What about the Thunderhawk, the giant Spore Mines, Carnifex variants malanthrope, various amount of imperial guard tanks (and not just the Superheavy ones), weapons platforms, Dreadclaw Drop Pod, Spined Chaos Beast, various types of Dreadnoughts, Space Marine tanks, Space Marine Turrets, etc? And the Hydra, Medusa, manticore, Valks and Executioners were released by FW LONG Before the Imperial Guard Codex update, and some of them had to already make it into the Apocalypse book before being considered for mainstream codex release (namely, the Trygon and most of the Imperial Guard Vehicles you listed). With the large percentage of things that were not released (there is still a few variants of the russes that have yet to be released), the handful that do makes it seem like GW only officially releases Forgeworld stuff when they cant come up with their own, and most of them require extensive testing before being released. The Achilles will probably never see the light of day until at least the DA or BT update.

Kanluwen, we all know your apparent distaste with Chaos and how much you like to throw your weight into your opinions in hopes someone will believe you but this thread doesn't need to split off down that dark road we call 'thread argument' so let's put a stop to it and just let things be.

candy.man wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:After all, my personal and not necessarily factual opinion, with Chaos it isn't about strategies. It's about how important/highly ranked/highly feared, etc you are

Broke your quote for you because I think I'm remotely knowledgeable about fluff.

The idea that Chaos uses any sort of strategy is so ridiculously incorrect, it is laughable. Your opinion = Fact

Chaos in general does not use strategies.

So yes, I'm right. Thanks for that!

Unless you really want to say that "throw millions upon millions of Daemons, Mutants, Heretics, and thousands of Astartes along with two superweapons feared throughout the universe at a single system that you've isolated with Warp Storms and barely manage to hold onto Cadia, destroy the two planets you've solidly converted to your cause, and lose one of your superweapons while the other is crippled and requires you to pull back your fleet to evacuate it" is strategic planning.

Abaddon's a "strategic genius" like my dog is qualified to run NASA.

Kurgash wrote:Kanluwen, we all know your apparent distaste with Chaos and how much you like to throw your weight into your opinions in hopes someone will believe you but this thread doesn't need to split off down that dark road we call 'thread argument' so let's put a stop to it and just let things be.

First off: You apparently know nothing, because I have no "distaste for Chaos".
The Eye of Terror has been rewritten time and time again by the spankers from Disorder to make it seem like there was some kind of "overarching strategy that Abaddon alone was privy to".

There wasn't. His goal was to kick in the Cadian Gate, allowing him and the rest of the Chaos Legions to enter realspace in a constant stream of numbers rather than just the blockade running or large scale assaults they had to resort to prior.
He failed miserably in that regard, and barely was able to make planetfall on Cadia--and that after he'd isolated the system from the rest of the Imperium for weeks. He let his flagship, the Planet-Killer be boarded by a strike team from the Ultramarines and failed to stop that, resulting in the Planet-Killer being crippled.

Once that happened, the campaign(if it could really be called that. It was more like a stampede, organized chaos[no pun intended] and one way to direct it in) fell apart.

So please. Keep trying to prove me wrong and keep being someone who apparently "knows" anything about me.

@Kanluwen
You see, the giant flaw in your opinion is that in order for you to be correct, you’d have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that chaos has never use battle strategy, which in itself is impossible. The entire existence of the Alpha legion debunks this. Hell, even Lord Zhufor, a Khornate Berserker warlord in IA7 (remember Berserkers = untactical madmen) used battle strategy to unify the chaos warbands on Vraks and gather enough sacrifices to summon Angrath.

The lack of chaos victories in the fluff can be attributed more to GW then Abaddon/tactics. GW will never ever let Abaddon actually take Cadia in the storyline, let alone succeed in a Black Crusade as would most likely harm the fluff and leave loyalist fans up in arms. GW will also never let any faction take Cadia, let any faction home world (such as Ultramar), let anyone take Terra, let anyone take Mars, let the Dark Angels find Cypher, let Araman find the black library etc. 40k fluff is a story with no ending.

GW also seems guilty of using a rinse and repeat template when writing fluff. Usually something along the lines of:

1. Chaos attacks <insert imperial faction here>
2. Chaos seems to be winning.
3. Grey Knights/<Insert Saviour Here> appear.
4. Loyalists win.

Remember, the battle outcome does not equal the fact that a strategy was not used.

Kanluwen wrote: Giant wall of text one doesn't care to read

there's one in every discussion...

candy.man wrote:@Kanluwen
You see, the giant flaw in your opinion is that in order for you to be correct, you’d have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that chaos has never use battle strategy, which in itself is impossible. The entire existence of the Alpha legion debunks this. Hell, even Lord Zhufor, a Khornate Berserker warlord in IA7 (remember Berserkers = untactical madmen) used battle strategy to unify the chaos warbands on Vraks and gather enough sacrifices to summon Angrath.

What part of "in general" do you not understand?
I could say that "in general, Americans are fat". Does that mean every single one is? No. The Alpha Legion, Night Lords, Iron Warriors and Red Corsairs are the biggest users of "strategy" in all its various guises...but also, in case you've forgotten, the most far removed from the taint of Chaos. They very rarely employ Daemons, very rarely exhibit Psyker traits, etc etc.
And Berzerkers/Khornate worshipers are not all untactical madmen. People are very keen to forget that Khorne is not exclusively the god of mindless bloodshed. He's also the god of martial skill and honorable combat. Martial skill can be said to include a grasp of strategy.

The lack of chaos victories in the fluff can be attributed more to GW then Abaddon/tactics. GW will never ever let Abaddon actually take Cadia in the storyline, let alone succeed in a Black Crusade as would most likely harm the fluff and leave loyalist fans up in arms. GW will also never let any faction take Cadia, let any faction home world (such as Ultramar), let anyone take Terra, let anyone take Mars, let the Dark Angels find Cypher, let Araman find the black library etc. 40k fluff is a story with no ending.

Abaddon did take Cadia. He did not succeed, however, in his overall goal of securing the Cadian Gate. Holding the planet does you no good if you don't hold the space around it.

GW also seems guilty of using a rinse and repeat template when writing fluff. Usually something along the lines of:

1. Chaos attacks <insert imperial faction here>
2. Chaos seems to be winning.
3. Grey Knights/<Insert Saviour Here> appear.
4. Loyalists win.
Remember, the battle outcome does not equal the fact that a strategy was not used.

And they also use the reverse where:
1. Chaos attacks & <insert Imperial faction here> begins defensive operations.
2. <Insert Imperial Faction Here> is winning, Chaos is on the back foot and getting stomped. Clean up operations are beginning.
3. <Insert Generic Imperial Guard Faction Here> suddenly turns traitor, murdering most of the command echelon and Imperium loses.

I'm hoping that the next Orks codex includes the mega-deff dread and the grot tanks, and maybe the guntrukks, or at least those tracked trukks. And the kill bursta tank.

Mega Deff Dred/Grot Tanks would make me freakin' superhappy to see in more games.

I wouldn't mind seeing some jet bikes for chaos, and atleast one other chaos specific vehicle, even the blight drone would suffice.

This entire ridiculous chaos argument is ended with the simple fact that 'Spess Muhreens are never allowed to lose'. Done. They still use strategies and tactics, they're just not allowed to win.

On topic I hope Necrons get a good, solid Dark Eldar-ing with a new codex. There's a lot of possibility for an enjoyable army in there but it's all drowned out in Monolith spam and warrior spam to deal with phasing out. More options, flexibility and yes more vehicles as much as the inner Tyranid in me is screaming for having said that I feel it's true.

Now if only 6th edition would come out and fix the vehicle rules we'd be golden.

I dont play them, and to be honest, dont know much about their fluff, but one of the reasons ive never been attracted to CSM is their depravity of vehicles. Sure they have daemons, but they are only really potent if your playing an apoc game and they are used as allies. They really numb their powers quite a bit if you use them with Chaos in a regular game. I think they could definately use some unique vehicles/monsters.

SumYungGui wrote:This entire ridiculous chaos argument is ended with the simple fact that 'Spess Muhreens are never allowed to lose'. Done. They still use strategies and tactics, they're just not allowed to win.

On topic I hope Necrons get a good, solid Dark Eldar-ing with a new codex. There's a lot of possibility for an enjoyable army in there but it's all drowned out in Monolith spam and warrior spam to deal with phasing out. More options, flexibility and yes more vehicles as much as the inner Tyranid in me is screaming for having said that I feel it's true.

Now if only 6th edition would come out and fix the vehicle rules we'd be golden.

At the risk of straying off topic a bit, what's wrong with the current vehicle rules? They look a damn sight better than the 4th edition ones where Rhinos were rolling deathtraps if you stayed in them too long.

Element206 wrote:I dont play them, and to be honest, dont know much about their fluff, but one of the reasons ive never been attracted to CSM is their depravity of vehicles. Sure they have daemons, but they are only really potent if your playing an apoc game and they are used as allies. They really numb their powers quite a bit if you use them with Chaos in a regular game. I think they could definately use some unique vehicles/monsters.

I agree. I strongly advocate captured russes/basilisks...But that would just make out heavy support section even more important, which we don't need...

We need more units spread out around the codex. I still don't think you should be able to take more than one unit of obliterators without having to take some sort of obliterator HQ or something. Their fluff makes them seem impossibly rare, and It doesn't seem like you'd be able to muster nine of them without having a leader guy somewhere close.

Aside from that, more daemonic engines would be great. Stuff like 'mini-defilers' and possessed dreadnoughts would be awesome. They could do all kinds of things with HH-themed vehicles. Something like: Heresy-era Land raider that basically implies that it's venerated and special, so, blablabla.

For the tau, it would be nice the piranha variants from forgeworld be made into plastic. Also the terra for the pathfinders would be cool. While not a vehicle, I would like to see the hazards and XV-882s made into plastic.

For the guard, seeing the hydra get plastic model would be nice.

Kanluwen wrote:

SilverMK2 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The Piranhas are waaaaaaaaaaay too small to be used as transports. With the Land Speeder Storm, they just made the rear compartment open and voila! Carrying capacity

It was just a starting point for a small Land Speeder-esque transport

See, here's my problem with that.

With the Land Speeder Storm...there's a viable reason it works(both fluff and rules wise). It's a transport for a unit that has never really had transport options that weren't absurdly against the fluff(Really? Rhinos for a Scout Squad? SNEAKY SNEAKY!) or the role that Scouts play (infiltrators/saboteurs).

Now, if you were to have a Piranha suddenly able to transport what it could feasibly carry (maybe what? 5-6 guys?)...what would make it something you want to take over a Devilfish?
I could feasibly see them allowing Pathfinder teams with an even number of members to get Tetras though.

I think it would be cool for the pirhanna to be able to carry 6 pathfinders. (Three side mounted seats behind the front armor part, maybe make the engines somewhere else.)