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Perhaps i'm seeing it wrong, but placing a grenade isn't a "true close combat" attack is it? My reasons for this are:

-You only get to make 1 attempt, despite your A profile
-You can never re-roll to hit with a grenade (i.e. using preferred enemy will not work when using grenades)

True, WS is compared if the Dread is immobilised, but it's not "close combat" on the part of the grenade-weilder is it? The model is not bringing its full number of attacks to bear against the walker.

I'm not great at wording things like this but i will give it a shot... This is why I think it works this way. Perhaps someone can look at this and put the rules mojo touch to it.

A) A model replaces his standard attacks to make a "special grenade" attack.

B) There for exchanging his normal allotment of attacks that use his weapon skill for a attack that follows specific game situations, not related to WS.

C) Specific game situations being. How fast a vehicle moves. WS has nothing to do with this situation. Nor does amount of attacks. Only relevant factor is if the model has a grenade. To use the grenade you refer to the situation relevant to the use of said grenade. If they have one they may opt to use this type of attack ignoring all other factors beyond the standard rules.

Thinking along these lines leads me to believe the WTN has no bearing on grenade vs dreadnaught specific rules. However if the dread is stunned they yes you would get the 3+.

These things came to my mind as relevant factors. However I do not have the gift of putting it into a good RAW statment or deconstruction. So this is just some things to think about that I believe are relevant to the answer either way.

Cheers.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:No, what matters is that the Grenade rules are more specific in this case than the WTN rules.

Against all models with a WS you hit on a 3+
Against non-immobilised walkers you INSTEAD hit on a 6+

There are fewer occasions where you hit on a 6+ than where you hit on a 3+, and it is thus the more specific rule.

Fexor, you're building your argument on an incorrect premise- that all models hit walkers on a 6+ in HtH. They don't. Only ones attacking with grenades.

Hierarchy of specificity, for these situations, IMO.

Attacking in close combat vs. model with a WS.
Attacking in close combat vs a model with a WS, while equipped with WTN
Attacking in close combat vs a model with a WS, while equipped with WTN, AND wielding a grenade for the attack.

If the model with the WTN was wielding a powerfist, he'd get to hit on a fixed 3+. But he's chosen (in this specific circumstance) to use a grenade, which makes this a smaller subset of "attacks by a model equipped with a WTN against a non-immobilized Dreadnought".

I am in agreement with Nos and Mann on this one.

Hitting a walker while equipped with WTN using your general attack characteristic on your profile plus charge bonus and offhand weapon if any at a 3+ = general rule

Specifically choosing to forgo your normal attacks and try to place 1 grenade or meltabomb on a rampaging walker that wants to tear your head off. Quite specific.

Everyone keeps trying to trump up the dreadnoughts comparitive WS b.s. and while it applied to the WTN at release it no longer applies after the errata.

After the errata, the only check you ever make is if the target has a weapon skill. A dread had a weapon skill, STOP. Argument over.

Don't read the rules for how to place a grenade on a dread. Those are in lieu of comparng WS for attacks which the WTN has absolutely nothing to do with comparing weapon skills.

Brother Ramses wrote:Everyone keeps trying to trump up the dreadnoughts comparitive WS b.s. and while it applied to the WTN at release it no longer applies after the errata.

After the errata, the only check you ever make is if the target has a weapon skill. A dread had a weapon skill, STOP. Argument over.

Don't read the rules for how to place a grenade on a dread. Those are in lieu of comparng WS for attacks which the WTN has absolutely nothing to do with comparing weapon skills.

Except grenades have a more specific rule than normal CC attacks, thus it overrides the WTN.

A dread have a specific rule that instead of COMPARING WS to determine if a grenade placed, it only is placed on a 6+ if the dread is still mobile.

WTN DOES NOT COMPARE WS ANYMORE!!!

The dreadnought has a WS, WTN works.

Not the dread has a WS and the wolf lord has a WS, but the wolf lord has a WTN. That is what it used to be.

WTN only cares that the dread has a WS, it doesn't compare it, it only cares that the dread has a WS.

Does the dread have a WS, yes or no? Not does the dread have a WS to compare to the wolf lord, just, does the dread have a WS, yes or no?

Brother Ramses wrote:A dread have a specific rule that instead of COMPARING WS to determine if a grenade placed, it only is placed on a 6+ if the dread is still mobile.

Specific rule, Exactly! Specific > General

Brother Ramses wrote:WTN DOES NOT COMPARE WS ANYMORE!!! The dreadnought has a WS, WTN works.

WTN DOES NOT HAVE TO COMPARE WS, THE SPECIFIC RULE OVERRIDES THE WTN

WTN works on normal attacks against the dread. a grenade being strapped in place is not a normal attack. again Specific > General

Brother Ramses wrote:WTN only cares that the dread has a WS, it doesn't compare it, it only cares that the dread has a WS.

Does the dread have a WS, yes or no? Not does the dread have a WS to compare to the wolf lord, just, does the dread have a WS, yes or no?

The dread has a weapon skill against normal attacks against it. Against grenades it only has a WS if it is immobilized or stunned, otherwise it uses the specific rules for using grenades against dreads.

Placing a grenade has Specific rules and as we know Specific > General.

Well said DeathReaper.

Again, in ascending order of specificity:

Attacking in close combat vs. model with a WS.
Attacking in close combat vs a model with a WS, while equipped with WTN
Attacking in close combat vs a model with a WS, while equipped with WTN, AND wielding a grenade for the attack.

When not using a grenade for an attack against an immobilzed or stunned walker, the model with the WTN still gets to hit on a 3+. Including his attacks with ANY OTHER WEAPON AGAINST SAID WALKER.

But "attacks by a model with a WTN using a grenade" is, by its nature, a smaller and more specific sub-set of attacks within the larger set of "attacks made by a model with a WTN".

Mannahnin wrote:Again, in ascending order of specificity:

Attacking in close combat vs. model with a WS.
Attacking in close combat vs a model with a WS, while equipped with WTN
Attacking in close combat vs a model with a WS, while equipped with WTN, AND wielding a grenade for the attack.

When not using a grenade for an attack against an immobilzed or stunned walker, the model with the WTN still gets to hit on a 3+. Including his attacks with ANY OTHER WEAPON AGAINST SAID WALKER.

But "attacks by a model with a WTN using a grenade" is, by its nature, a smaller and more specific sub-set of attacks within the larger set of "attacks made by a model with a WTN".

Compare/Contrast:

Attacking in close combat vs. model with a WS.
Attacking in close combat vs a model with a WS, wielding a grenade for the attack.
Attacking in close combat vs a model with a WS, wielding a grenade for the attack, AND equipped with a WTN.

Good argument.

How about my second point?

The model with the WTN uses its effect on most attacks he can make against a walker. But attacks he makes using one specific weapon (grenades) is always going to be a smaller sub-set of possible attacks he can make.

Nice try DR, but I could have just as easily said:

"Wolf Lord with a WTN has a specific rule that he hits on 3+ in close combat."

C wut I did thar? I just killed the basis of your specific versus general argument.

And please show me where placing a grenade is not defined as a normal close combat attack. How about you show me that WTN only applies to normal close combat attacks? By that standard I guess any attack by a power weapon, powerfist, wolf claw, thunder hammer, or frost blade renders the WTN useless since they are made with special close combat weapons.

Also DR, please show me in the BRB where the WS characteristic is suddenly removed from the dread proatta. Show me where it is suddenly then replaced when the dread makes his attack. Cmon, don't just make crap up now about disappearing and reappearing profile characteristics.

And Mann, are you trying to create a instance where an attack in close combat is not an attack? Nothing in the BRB creates even the illusion that placing grenades is outside the realm of close combat. Or are you trying to justify the specific rule over general while that doesn't even matter in this argument.

Look, laymans terms:

Dread: Haha, despite your outstanding WS 6 Mr. Wolf Lord, you will need a 6 to attack me with that melta bomb!

Wolf Lord: That's good to know, but I am not using my WS to attack you with said melta bomb. I am using my WTN which only requires that you have a WS listed on your profile.

I still do not 'get' how a model wearing a WTN could ever be less specific - as every model with a grenade could attack something with it, and if attacking a walker hits on a 6. Compared to when attacking things with a grenade, one attacks a walker and would hit on a 6 - but the dread has a WS so you hit in CC (which is where you are no?) on a 3+.

I can't find any rule or errata that avoids the facts that it is an attack made in CC, the walker has a WS and your guy has a WTN.

BR, I reject your premise.

Specific vs. general is the controlling issue, IMO.

For MOST of his possible attacks, a model with a WTN will hit a walker on a 3+.

In the smaller, more limited circumstance in which he attacks a non-immobilized, non-stunned walker with a grenade, then the specific rule controlling grenade attacks against walkers will take precedence.

But it's an attack, made with a grenade, against a model with WS, in CC - satisfying all criterias for WTN o cause one to hit on a 3+. And I can't find a rule which voids that or that backs up what yo're asserting.

ChrisCP wrote:But it's an attack, made with a grenade, against a model with WS, in CC - satisfying all criterias for WTN o cause one to hit on a 3+. And I can't find a rule which voids that or that backs up what yo're asserting.

Exactly. As pointed out, the entry for the WTN is not limited in any shape or form of what kind of attack hits on a 3+ in close combat.

So far I have seen people try and do the following:

1. Create a limitation on what kind of hits are governed by a WTN, despite no RAW.

2. Create a new close combat phase of "grenades" so as for it not to apply to WTN, despite no RAW.

3. Create a specific/general argument that does not even apply to WTN, despite no RAW.

4. Complain merely on personal opinion that Space Wolves are already too good.

All over a rule whose only qualifier to work is that the target have a WS. That is it. All that bs from an absolute qualifier of having a WS.

I am still wondering when people will even answer if a dreadnought has a weapon skill.

Ah, I love the in-depth rule disputes on this board!

"Always Hits In Close Combat On a 3+"
Using a grenade is not a Close Combat attack. You are using a grenade in leu of Close Combat.

Ignoring all other aspects, this alone prevents the necklace from working.


Get that model a Thunder Hammer and roll with it.

Ezekial wrote:Ah, I love the in-depth rule disputes on this board!

"Always Hits In Close Combat On a 3+"
Using a grenade is not a Close Combat attack. You are using a grenade in leu of Close Combat.

Ignoring all other aspects, this alone prevents the necklace from working.


Get that model a Thunder Hammer and roll with it.

Good job on bringing absolutely nothong to this thread. Read the rules, it is an attack and it is in close combat, and it is refered to as a hit. The precise vernacular used to describe close combat in 40k and in line with the wording for the WTN.

Edit since you might not have a BRB:

The rules for Grenades in Vehicle assaults say (rulebook, pg 63):

"Grenades have to be clamped or placed so as to inflict enough damage, so each model using them can only ever make one attack, regardless of the number of Attacks on their profile and any bonus attacks."

and for assaulting a walker (rulebook, pg 73):

"Grenades and melta bombs can be used against a walker. A model will only manage to score a hit with a grenade against a walker on the roll of 6. However, if a walker is already stunned or immobilised at the start of the Assault phase, the attackers roll to hit based on the normal comparison of WS. Remember that models using grenades against vehicles only make one attack."

So rhere you have attacks and hit being mentioned and lo and behold, all taking place during the ASSAULT PHASE.

Brother Ramses wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:But it's an attack, made with a grenade, against a model with WS, in CC - satisfying all criterias for WTN o cause one to hit on a 3+. And I can't find a rule which voids that or that backs up what yo're asserting.

Exactly. As pointed out, the entry for the WTN is not limited in any shape or form of what kind of attack hits on a 3+ in close combat.

So far I have seen people try and do the following:

1. Create a limitation on what kind of hits are governed by a WTN, despite no RAW.

2. Create a new close combat phase of "grenades" so as for it not to apply to WTN, despite no RAW.

3. Create a specific/general argument that does not even apply to WTN, despite no RAW.

4. Complain merely on personal opinion that Space Wolves are already too good.

All over a rule whose only qualifier to work is that the target have a WS. That is it. All that bs from an absolute qualifier of having a WS.

I am still wondering when people will even answer if a dreadnought has a weapon skill.

Underlined above points to a general rule, all his attacks hit on a 3+ if the model has a WS.

Walkers have a rule about 1 type of attack, grenades, that follow a set of rules, all other attacks use the WS rules.

Seems like the dread grenade rule is more specific than hitting anything you come across on a 3+

Emphasis mine:

Brother Ramses wrote:
and for assaulting a walker (rulebook, pg 73):

"Grenades and melta bombs can be used against a walker. A model will only manage to score a hit with a grenade against a walker on the roll of 6. However, if a walker is already stunned or immobilised at the start of the Assault phase, the attackers roll to hit based on the normal comparison of WS. Remember that models using grenades against vehicles only make one attack."

Brother Ramses wrote:A dread have a specific rule that instead of COMPARING WS to determine if a grenade placed, it only is placed on a 6+ if the dread is still mobile.

WTN DOES NOT COMPARE WS ANYMORE!!!

As your own rule quote proves, there's only a comparison of WS if the Dread is stunned or immobilised. If it's mobile, you hit on a 6, no matter what.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Emphasis mine:

Brother Ramses wrote:
and for assaulting a walker (rulebook, pg 73):

"Grenades and melta bombs can be used against a walker. A model will only manage to score a hit with a grenade against a walker on the roll of 6. However, if a walker is already stunned or immobilised at the start of the Assault phase, the attackers roll to hit based on the normal comparison of WS. Remember that models using grenades against vehicles only make one attack."

Brother Ramses wrote:A dread have a specific rule that instead of COMPARING WS to determine if a grenade placed, it only is placed on a 6+ if the dread is still mobile.

WTN DOES NOT COMPARE WS ANYMORE!!!

As your own rule quote proves, there's only a comparison of WS if the Dread is stunned or immobilised. If it's mobile, you hit on a 6, no matter what.

The WTN is not a WS comparison. It is a WS check. Does a dread have a WS? Yes. WTN condition fulfilled.

Blanket Effect = General Rule; BRB rules are general.

Codex Effects from Wargear = Specific, because without the wargear they can't use the ability; therefor fall under the general BRB rules when not using the wargear.

This is a terrible argument for the tired codex over BRB argument. The grenades hit on a 6+ normally and a 3+ once immobilized or stunned.

What is the ultimate criteria for ''specific-ness'' here? Is it the one that lets you write more sentences? Is it the one that come from a Codex? It seems like nobody has bothered to address that before claiming their particular opinion of the rules is, in fact more specific.

And on that topic, how is ANY BGB rule more specific than a Codex item designed, by definition, to break said BGB rules?

Sweeping Advance, for one.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except you dont hit walkers with grenades based on WS (unless immoblised). So the WTN doesnt work.

PRetty cut and dried.

I hate to said this but you are wrong. Here the correct answer with the Wolf Tail Necklace. It hit on a 3 plus reguardless of the WS that your opponents has. So, if you attack a Dreanought which it has a WS, you can hit it with a Melta Bomb on a 3 and not a 6. This is an old rule from the Witch Hunter Codex and it the same with SW Wolf Tail Necklace.

Generally for a rule to be more specific, it describes the rules for a subset of the scenarios where another rule would be otherwise applied.

I assume you are referring to Celestian 'Holy Hatred' for the hit on a 3+ argument applying to grenades. I play WH and I am not aware of any documents that state their grenades hit on a 3+ as well.

I'd say a 6 unless immobilized or stunned

Mrblacksunshine - please read the other pages which follow this. Your answer is not the correct one, as the more restrictive rule is the grenade rule.

Remember that the codex will always ibecorrect and will always over rule the rules from the 40k rule book.

Ask yourself this question

Does your opponent model has a WS skill...yes or no... Dreadnought does have a WS

What does the Necklace rules states, Always hit on a 3 reguardless of their WS.

The rule books states that you have to hit on a 6, but the Wolf Tooth Neclace neglect that rule and will always hit on a 3 with either a weapon or generades

sorry sunshine, wrong on this one and yes I'm aware of what WTN does and how the faq is worded.
The walker rule is more specific so unless it's stunned or immobilized you'll need a 6 to plant the melta bomb.