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Hello,

I'm trying to get my head round using melta bombs when using a model with a wolf Tooth Necklace. Does the placing of the bomb hapen on a roll of three or more like in normal combat or do you have to use the rolls based on how much the vehicle moved. Also how does it work when fighting dread's?


cheers for youe help.





EDIT: Oops sorry just noticed I put this in the wrong place. please could a mod move it to the propper bit. Sorry (cheers)

Please see http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1520061a_FAQ_SpaceWolves_2010.pdf for the errata for the Wolf Tooth necklace.

solkan wrote:Please see http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1520061a_FAQ_SpaceWolves_2010.pdf for the errata for the Wolf Tooth necklace.

Nice one thanks. Didn't think to look there. That has solved the first bit about vehivles but I'm still unsure where walkers. They have a wepon skill but the rules say you need to roll a 6 to plant the bomb. Does it work for this roll?

The weaponskill of the dread in respect to grenades is not used until it is stunned/immobilised so i play it as the necklace does not work until the WS is used, otherwise its very overpowered imo.

I think it's pretty obvious-the walker has a WS, therefore the tooth works against it, giving a 3+. It doesn't matter if that 3+ is for the use of using meltabombs or a regular weapon, it's still against a model with a WS. According to the FAQ, it's pretty cut and dried.

Except you dont hit walkers with grenades based on WS (unless immoblised). So the WTN doesnt work.

PRetty cut and dried.

cheers that clears that up.


nice one

Except it doesn't ask for a comparison of WS, just for the presence of it on the model, pretty cut and dried

ChrisCP wrote:Except it doesn't ask for a comparison of WS, just for the presence of it on the model, pretty cut and dried

Exactly.

Prior to the errata, it was based on comparative weapon skill and thus the dreadnought's special rule overruled it. After the errata, the comparative weapon skill is no longer an issue. The mere presence of a weapon skill characteristic on the dreadnoughts profile is the only qualifier.

melta bombs hitting a soulgrinder on a 3 yes please

I'd still say it didn't work on the dreads though.

As if space wolves need MORE beardy advantages....

liam0404 wrote:I'd still say it didn't work on the dreads though.

As if space wolves need MORE beardy advantages....

Is this just wishful thinking or do you have a reason that's based on rules you can actually quote?

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except you dont hit walkers with grenades based on WS (unless immoblised). So the WTN doesnt work.

PRetty cut and dried.

That doesn't matter. A walker has a Weapon Skill, and has a rule that requires all grenade attacks against it to hit on a 6. Grenade attacks are close combat attacks, and a WTN allows a model to hit any model with a weapon skill in close combat on a 3+, so in this case it's a case of specific V generic. The generic rule is that grenade attacks hit on a 6 until the Walker is immobilized, but the specific rule is that a model with a WTN allows the model to hit on a 3+. The specific rule wins and grenades always hit on a 3+ against Walkers, regardless of whether or not the walker is immobile or stunned.

Unless you phrase it differently.

WTN allows a model to hit ANY model/unit with a WS on a 3+ for ANY attack

The walker rules allow a unit to hit A WALKER on a 6 with a GRENADE attack.

Seems like the walker rule is more specific....

But that doesn't really matter because as was pointed out above, the WTN does not require comparative weapon skill, it only requires that weapon skill be present on the model.

No, what matters is that the Grenade rules are more specific in this case than the WTN rules.

Against all models with a WS you hit on a 3+
Against non-immobilised walkers you INSTEAD hit on a 6+

There are fewer occasions where you hit on a 6+ than where you hit on a 3+, and it is thus the more specific rule.

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, what matters is that the Grenade rules are more specific in this case than the WTN rules.

Against all models with a WS you hit on a 3+
Against non-immobilised walkers you INSTEAD hit on a 6+

There are fewer occasions where you hit on a 6+ than where you hit on a 3+, and it is thus the more specific rule.

Actually.....I see your point. I'll give you a maybe on that one. It's yet to come up in a game for me though, even though I do field a Wolf Lord with Meltabombs and a WTN. So few people around here field Walkers that I don't just blow up at range before they can start eating my Thunderwolves....

I believe Nos is correct here, that the grenades against walkers rule is more specific than WTN against all models with WS.

Actually it depends on where you got the rules from.

If the Walker rule comes from the BRB, the WTN rule over rules it, as stated by GW "Codex rules over-rule BRB rules".

If the Walker rule is from a Codex then never mind you have a valid point.

Fexor wrote:Actually it depends on where you got the rules from.

If the Walker rule comes from the BRB, the WTN rule over rules it, as stated by GW "Codex rules over-rule BRB rules".

If the Walker rule is from a Codex then never mind you have a valid point.

The Walker rule is from the BRB, and obviously the WTN is from a codex, and you are right. Codex rules overrule BRB so I think we have an answer here.

I don't think GW actually does say that. I just double-checked the GW FAQ page, and the BRB, and I'm not seeing it.

The rule of thumb is that the more specific rule trumps the general rule. And rules from codices, having to do with specific armies and units, are usually more specific than rules from the rulebook. Usually, but not always.

Aldarion - incorrect, otherwise powerweapons would not work.

Specific > General. the ONLY time that the codex ALWAYS overrides the rulebook is, as the rulebook says (smoke launchers), when you have two rules with the same name but different effects.

And this is still a case of specific > general!

Seems I have opened a can of worms with this one. Reading all the answers people have put (thanks by the way). Seems there is strong arguments in both directions. Being quite new to the game it seems very ambiguous.

The way it seems to me is that the bomb placement is a roll to hit roll in close combat, and the WTN says all rolls to hit are 3+ as long as the model you are hitting has a WS. So I think it does work. But I can see every game I play this point is going to be argued as the wolf lord with a WTN and melta-bombs is a big part of how I play. For me it seems that it just for close combat attacks, so if the bombs are classed as a close combat attack then it should work. But the BRB does not say if placing the bombs is a close combat attack.

Except walkers special grenade rules are more specific.

What's more specific; hitting a walker in CC with a grenade, or hitting a walker in CC with a grenade while equipped with WTN?

Whats more specific *to the model with the WTN*?

Well what if you have a grenade and are equipped with a Power Weapon, an Iron Halo ... etc

You get the point, it is not your equipment it is the 'rules'

Again the rule to hit a walker with a grenade in CC when not immobilized or stunned is more specific than hitting in combat with any weapon.

In all honesty, if you're looking at a General Rule vs Specific Rule and wargear.

Lets look at this way:

BRB ALL models wishing to hit a Walker in CC must roll a 6+ unless immobilized.

This seems pretty general, I mean it applies to all models, there's nothing cut out or exception-ed.

Now lets look at the WTN:

SW: Wolf Tooth Necklace allows the wearer to hit a target with a WS in close combat on a 3+.

Very specific, the model MUST be wearing the wolf tooth necklace. Otherwise, he follows the 6+, unless immobilized rule. Seems pretty easy to tell which is general and which isn't.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Against all models with a WS you hit on a 3+
Against non-immobilised walkers you INSTEAD hit on a 6+
There are fewer occasions where you hit on a 6+ than where you hit on a 3+, and it is thus the more specific rule.

Just because you don't assault a Walker very often and throw a 'nade at him or hit him in close combat doesn't make it "specific", that's just your play style.

And the BRB rule is not specific, because it applies to ALL models, not just the one with the Wolf Tooth Necklace. There for the ONE exception IS the Wolf Tooth Necklace making it a more specific rule, because you HAVE to be wearing it in order to use it's effect.

Blanket Effect = General Rule; BRB rules are general.

Codex Effects from Wargear = Specific, because without the wargear they can't use the ability; therefor fall under the general BRB rules when not using the wargear.

Fexor, you're building your argument on an incorrect premise- that all models hit walkers on a 6+ in HtH. They don't. Only ones attacking with grenades.

Hierarchy of specificity, for these situations, IMO.

Attacking in close combat vs. model with a WS.
Attacking in close combat vs a model with a WS, while equipped with WTN
Attacking in close combat vs a model with a WS, while equipped with WTN, AND wielding a grenade for the attack.

If the model with the WTN was wielding a powerfist, he'd get to hit on a fixed 3+. But he's chosen (in this specific circumstance) to use a grenade, which makes this a smaller subset of "attacks by a model equipped with a WTN against a non-immobilized Dreadnought".

I see it like this-

The necklace says 'against models with a WS' that's walkers 'the model HITS on a 3+ in close combat'. I take this to mean that it means any CC hit, so I don't see how melas are a problem. You simply use that in place of your normal attacks.