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A pyrrhic victory implies a win that is so damaging to the winner, that he might well lose the next conflict.

Weither the missle struck because of sabotage or because of an accident - the battle was still won at a great cost. Nothing in the definition of a pyrrhic battle prevents betrayal from being involved.

Technically it does not imply betrayal, but more of an implication. Much like how we are viewing this betrayal vs accident thing, it's more of a personal thing.

The way I see the definition of a pyrrhic victory:

Let's pretend you are a commander of a giant military force. You attack a target and throw millions of troopers into the fight head on. You incur losses, but you win with only 10% of your force remaining.
pyrrhic victory.

The way I see it with sabatoge is that you don't start with the millions of troops. If you've been sabatoged, you've "lost" a battle of sorts. From that point on, you're fighting with what you have left, and if you win, it's not a pyrrhic victory because you started with so little.

That's how I see it anyways...

Except your definition doesn't apply to the CF at all... weither the missile hit by accident or not, it hitting caused the Crimson Fist to lose the majority of their Chapter.

They didn't lose the majority of their chapter to orks... but to the missile. The cause of the missile doesn't change that.

I've also read somewhere that a lone assassin caused the missile to detonate to a catastrophic effect.

However, rather than "punishment", we could look at other angles:

Pedro Kantor willingly sacrificed several worlds to allow the Ork Waaagh to lose it's momentum. He justified it by stating that trying to stop the invasion would mean that more orks would swarm to the Warboss. His position was one of striking "after the enemy extended its arm".

Now, from this, we could suppose that, if there was an assassin involved, it was sent by someone who thought the same as the CFs' Chapter Master, that Rynn's World would only serve to momentarily stop the Waaagh, only for it to be reinforced, overwhelm the CFs and threaten other Imperial Worlds.

It could also be the work of an Istvaanist Inquisitor (one of the many "schools of thought" present in the organization, that sees Humanity's rise through warfare and hardship, thus named after the greatest marine massacre) believing that the blow to the CFs' (whether they won or lost) or the increase of the Ork empire would mean that this would activate the slow hammer of the Imperium (which branches out to many different conclusions).

This might be flawed if the sending of an Assassin still required the voting system it was said to need in older, 2nd edition fluff - I think a majority vote by the High Lords of Terra themselves.

Leaving it to a fluke wouldn't diminish the Crimson Fists, obviously (and thankfully not everything needs to be a conspiracy by Inquisitors or C'tan), but it seems a bit uncalled for. I mean, we already have the Lamenters...

why would the Inqusition kill its lap dog? OR would it be because the Inquisition might of accidently said kill that. And they forgot and then the assassin came back and said "Sir job is done."
Inqusitior: What job? You were suppose to be on vacation.
Assassin: YOu told me to go and annihilate the Crimson fists!
Inqusitior: Oh crap. Forgot to cancel it again.

Considering the nightmare of 40k bureaucary, the Assassin's report of 'job done' may only come back to the council of terra in 500 years, which will cause a major facepalm and for it to be buried up again.

Tarkand wrote:Except your definition doesn't apply to the CF at all... weither the missile hit by accident or not, it hitting caused the Crimson Fist to lose the majority of their Chapter.

They didn't lose the majority of their chapter to orks... but to the missile. The cause of the missile doesn't change that.

I'm sorry I don't quite understand that. They first line.

Maybe we should clarify what we're debating first.....

Destrado wrote:I've also read somewhere that a lone assassin caused the missile to detonate to a catastrophic effect.

However, rather than "punishment", we could look at other angles:

Pedro Kantor willingly sacrificed several worlds to allow the Ork Waaagh to lose it's momentum. He justified it by stating that trying to stop the invasion would mean that more orks would swarm to the Warboss. His position was one of striking "after the enemy extended its arm".

Now, from this, we could suppose that, if there was an assassin involved, it was sent by someone who thought the same as the CFs' Chapter Master, that Rynn's World would only serve to momentarily stop the Waaagh, only for it to be reinforced, overwhelm the CFs and threaten other Imperial Worlds.

It could also be the work of an Istvaanist Inquisitor (one of the many "schools of thought" present in the organization, that sees Humanity's rise through warfare and hardship, thus named after the greatest marine massacre) believing that the blow to the CFs' (whether they won or lost) or the increase of the Ork empire would mean that this would activate the slow hammer of the Imperium (which branches out to many different conclusions).

This might be flawed if the sending of an Assassin still required the voting system it was said to need in older, 2nd edition fluff - I think a majority vote by the High Lords of Terra themselves.

Leaving it to a fluke wouldn't diminish the Crimson Fists, obviously (and thankfully not everything needs to be a conspiracy by Inquisitors or C'tan), but it seems a bit uncalled for. I mean, we already have the Lamenters...

The IoM is quite willing to lose a few worlds to stop an entire Waaagh.
And I think the Crimson Fists were around before the Lamentors. (Fluff wise at any rate)

And I think the Crimson Fists were around before the Lamentors. (Fluff wise at any rate)

They were, but at one point, it was said that the Lamenters suffered from repetitive ill-luck. Let them have that place in the fluff, and our hearts (which is why I don't like the idea of the missile being a fluke, as the missile turning around are unheard of in 40k fluff AFAIK).

Off-topicaly, shouldn't Kantor have Combat Tactics rather than Stubborn? It was his cool-headedness that saved the Chapter, rather than a heroic last-stand.

Destrado wrote:

And I think the Crimson Fists were around before the Lamentors. (Fluff wise at any rate)

They were, but at one point, it was said that the Lamenters suffered from repetitive ill-luck. Let them have that place in the fluff, and our hearts (which is why I don't like the idea of the missile being a fluke, as the missile turning around are unheard of in 40k fluff AFAIK).

Off-topicaly, shouldn't Kantor have Combat Tactics rather than Stubborn? It was his cool-headedness that saved the Chapter, rather than a heroic last-stand.

The fact it is a million-to-one thing is what makes it tragic.
Even though the Crimson Fists were mighty and such they were still levelled by luck.

It also helps to endear them to players. I mean, they were screwed over by luck. And how many players forever curse that one time they rolled straight ones?

Destrado: THat's kinda the point....the missile falling back to ground is a one in a million shot, and it hitting in the ONE spot on the wall where it'd hit the armory and blow up the whole fortress? One in a billion. It makes sense that we never hear about elsewhere. It's one of htose fluke accidents where you just marvel and ask: how the FETH did that happen!?

Destrado: Off-topicaly, shouldn't Kantor have Combat Tactics rather than Stubborn? It was his cool-headedness that saved the Chapter, rather than a heroic last-stand

Well yeah i can see what you mean but Darath Lysander has it too so maybe its in their gene-seed and also he was stubborn because he was going to fight to the end and die before the orks could get Rynn and he carries on purging the remaining orks on rynn world rather than sit in a base

purplefood wrote:The fact it is a million-to-one thing is what makes it tragic.
Even though the Crimson Fists were mighty and such they were still levelled by luck.

Yeah, guess you're right. Though I'd still prefer the sabotage, but ultimately, it's one too many conspiracies for no apparent reason. I just hope they don't pick it up again to have it blamed on the C'tan.

slushy112 wrote:Well yeah i can see what you mean but Darath Lysander has it too so maybe its in their gene-seed and also he was stubborn because he was going to fight to the end and die before the orks could get Rynn and he carries on purging the remaining orks on rynn world rather than sit in a base

True, it could be a gene-seed thing, or represent his tenacity... But the Imperial Fists as more extremist in their beliefs, while the CF were less temperamental, more reasonable. IMHO it's another weirdness, like Kantor not having Artificier Armour (I doubt he wasn't wearing one when he left HQ).

Destrado: IMHO it's another weirdness, like Kantor not having Artificier Armour (I doubt he wasn't wearing one when he left HQ).

Actually yh i see what you mean but he was fighting on his own turf i suppose and he was with the majority of his chapter so he might have been a bit opptamistic but thst is just an idea and he cant wear i now seeing as it was most likely destroyed in the blast.