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One marine may replace his bolter with....(etc)

If the squad numbers 10 models a further marine may replace his bolter with... etc.

I like the list, i like that you've added a new variant of the land raider. A couple of things are of concern to me however. As you have mentioned there is the option for Tac squads to take two heavy weapons. For this healthy bonus there must be a drawback the most obvious to me is the removal of devastator squads and i'm afraid your weird heavy terminator unit. 'In order to better hunt the fallen the sons of caliban diverged from the codex astartes. By placing all heavy weaponry in tactical squads they gained greater versatility in achieving their grim task.' A fully manned tactical squad could take suspensors for 30pts? The special rule that allows 2 kill points for killing an enemy is far too blatant, aside from scenario rules their are no army specific rules that make any reference to kill points. In designing a codex you shold be more concerned with providing the tools for kill point accumulation and not be so blasé about it, preferred enemy suits better i think.

Here is a WAAC list I've created from the V1.1 Codex:

HQ:

Belial - 130pts

Elites:

Techmarine - 80pts
- Servo Harness

Troops:

Deathwing Terminators (10) - 445pts
- 2x CML
- 8x TH/SS
- 2x Twin Lightning Claw

Tactical Marines (5) - 175pts
- Lascannon
- Razorback with Tl Plasma Gun and Lascannon

Tactical Marines (5) - 175pts
- Lascannon
- Razorback with Tl Plasma Gun and Lascannon

Tactical Marines (5) - 175pts
- Lascannon
- Razorback with Tl Plasma Gun and Lascannon

Fast Attack:

Ravenwing Support Squadron (1) - 70pts
- Multimelta/Heavy Flamer

Ravenwing Support Squadron (1) - 70pts
- Multimelta/Heavy Flamer

Ravenwing Support Squadron (1) - 70pts
- Multimelta/Heavy Flamer

Heavy Support:

Predator - 120pts
- Lascannon Sponsons

Predator - 120pts
- Lascannon Sponsons

Predator - 120pts
- Lascannon Sponsons

Total: 1750pts

Basically Belial and his Terminator buddies turn up on Turn one in a nice big 11 man terminator squad, equipped with 8 storm shields and therefore devastating in assault as well as being able to fire away with two CML's. The Land Speeders close in and target any high-value targets whilst the Tactical Marines/Razorbacks/Predators form a firebase, supported by the Techmarine.
They should be capable of out-gunning most armies, particularly thanks to the significant distraction of the Terminator squad who will whether a significant amount of firepower, protecting the main army.
Against assault-based armies or DOA lists, the Terminators can act as bubble wrap whilst the firebase whittles them down.

It's unimaginative and I wouldn't personally use it but I expect it's damn competitive...

Perkustin wrote:The special rule that allows 2 kill points for killing an enemy is far too blatant, aside from scenario rules their are no army specific rules that make any reference to kill points. In designing a codex you shold be more concerned with providing the tools for kill point accumulation and not be so blasé about it, preferred enemy suits better i think.

Incorrect. Look at Bjorn the Fell Handed.

I agree and frankly key points are flawed as it is.

I see little wrong with that rule. If it was 2 kill points for everything, I'd complain.

However, it's doubled for certain HQ's of which there are few.

Exactly.

Alright. So this brings us to v1.2.

I've made several clerical/typographiccal fixes. I'm hoping I'm getting near the end of these.

Belial: Gave him an Iron Halo, EW, and upped his point cost.

Veteran Squads: BP/CCW as stadnard, with Boltguns w/ SIA as a free upgrade.

Raven Wing Command Squad: Fixed the TL-Plasma Gun, they can now properly take power weapons.

Deathwing Command Squads can now take Deathwing Company Standards, instead of Ravenwing Comapny Stadards

Tempests: Upped Points Costs

Tactical Squads: Finally settled on a wording I'm comfortable with. 2 Heavv weapons or 1 heavy one special at 10 models.

Land Raider/Land Raider Hunter: Old Codex had the same issue. I figure if there's any chapter that can figure out how to cram 6 terminator suits into one Land Raider, its the DA, so they get 12 man Land Raiders.

Dreadnoughts: Points costs really were accurate. 10 points for an Assault cannon. Think of it this way: A MM, is, at most, going to have one chance to kill a vehicle. An assault cannon has four chances to kill the vehicle, or, can potentially kill up to 4 infantry. I suppose that's worth 10 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the list looks good. That's an ungodly amount of firepower, and really makes the point stick about limiting dual heavy weapons to 10 man squads, if anything. Also makes me realize how much Belial needed a points increase.

Which brings me to the next issue: Are the other special Characters well costed? Looking at some other 'dexes, I feel like they might be under priced. Thoughts?

I like the changes Endova, I think Belial is now well costed too and the wording on Tacticals is good.

Tempests may still be under-costed but I can't say with too much accuracy tbh.

I didn't realise Dreads were like that in the Space Marine Codex, I was judging them by the Space Wolf Codex (the one I own), you learn something new everyday!

For the Terminator/Land Raider I personally would've just made the Deathwing Command Squad 4-men and/or included the Redeemer. I think the change you made is fine, however I'd watch out as APPARENTLY Matt Ward got heavily criticised by the Games Workshop upper-tier/bosses due to the transport capacity changes, however I suspect this was more in regards to Drop Pods.


If you want Endova, I can go through V1.2 and highlight any 'flaws', grammatical, spelling or otherwise?
Also, what's happening about this lance weapon?

Looks really good though man, congrats.


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As for the Special Characters, I haven't looked at them in too much detail just yet, but I can tell you later when I have more time.
One thing I will say now however is I feel Azreal might deserve EW or for the Lion Helm to make him immune to ID as as it stands you may get your 4-wound, 200pts+ Chapter Master gimped by a Powerfist!
Also, I'm not entirely sure about his 4++ rule as I am struggling to see so much application for it these days due to the predominance of Storm Shields and the like and how Veterans are more suited for shooting rather than close combat.

Once again though, when I get the time I can look over the SC's better and say what I think if you want?

Just Dave wrote:

For the Terminator/Land Raider I personally would've just made the Deathwing Command Squad 4-men and/or included the Redeemer. I think the change you made is fine, however I'd watch out as APPARENTLY Matt Ward got heavily criticised by the Games Workshop upper-tier/bosses due to the transport capacity changes, however I suspect this was more in regards to Drop Pods.

I've heard as much. I actually like 12 man Drop Pods when I did my list, but I'll be keeping them at 10 men here. I also think Ultramarine LRs should be 10, but like I said, I think the Dark Angels could figure out some things to get rid of to fit 6 Terminators.

I suppose I can go two routes here. I can stay the course, and just say that the Dark Angels remove the codex mandated 'fuzzy rear-view mirror dice' and cup holders to fit another Terminator, or I can re do the Deathwing Squad Comp with 4 guys. I don't like this option as much, because it opens up more questions. How should I restrict heavy weapons in a 4 man squad? Who/what do I cut from Deathwing Command squads? How should this affect points costs while still keeping things balance versus Ravenwing and normal builds?

If you want Endova, I can go through V1.2 and highlight any 'flaws', grammatical, spelling or otherwise?
Also, what's happening about this lance weapon?

By all means! I can always use more editing.

The Plasma Lance? I'm fairly happy with the way it is. Like I said, just as good vs. AV14/13, a little worse vs. lighter AV's and better against infantry. I'm satisfied with that, but I'm willing to listen to other thoughts on it.

Commander Endova wrote:

Just Dave wrote:

For the Terminator/Land Raider I personally would've just made the Deathwing Command Squad 4-men and/or included the Redeemer. I think the change you made is fine, however I'd watch out as APPARENTLY Matt Ward got heavily criticised by the Games Workshop upper-tier/bosses due to the transport capacity changes, however I suspect this was more in regards to Drop Pods.

I've heard as much. I actually like 12 man Drop Pods when I did my list, but I'll be keeping them at 10 men here. I also think Ultramarine LRs should be 10, but like I said, I think the Dark Angels could figure out some things to get rid of to fit 6 Terminators.

I suppose I can go two routes here. I can stay the course, and just say that the Dark Angels remove the codex mandated 'fuzzy rear-view mirror dice' and cup holders to fit another Terminator, or I can re do the Deathwing Squad Comp with 4 guys. I don't like this option as much, because it opens up more questions. How should I restrict heavy weapons in a 4 man squad? Who/what do I cut from Deathwing Command squads? How should this affect points costs while still keeping things balance versus Ravenwing and normal builds?

If you want Endova, I can go through V1.2 and highlight any 'flaws', grammatical, spelling or otherwise?
Also, what's happening about this lance weapon?

By all means! I can always use more editing.

The Plasma Lance? I'm fairly happy with the way it is. Like I said, just as good vs. AV14/13, a little worse vs. lighter AV's and better against infantry. I'm satisfied with that, but I'm willing to listen to other thoughts on it.

I actually meant for the RW Command Squad!

But yeah, I'll get back to you with the editing thing, that may take more time than the rest...

As for the Land Raider, I can understand what you mean and I can fully see your reason and sense behind it.

All I will suggest, as you have a good point about the Deathwing squad and the Land Raiders that if you changed it, just lower the cost of the Command squad by 35pts (maybe 25) to 180pts and keep the Heavy Weapon option as it is. Currently you could argue that they are undercosted btw due to the inclusion of the apothecary.

You could go either way with this though so I don't really mind and I'll leave you to it.

Ahh. Well, up towards the start of the post, Kanluewen was talking about a special kind of anti-vehicle sword for the DA. It got me thinking, when someone else mentioned a CCW Lance Type weapon. I'd propose a sword, that adds +1S and +1A, that is lance and rending. So, with some luck, you can Rend out a Land Raider, or anything else for that matter.

As for the Deathwing squads... Other than trying to stuff dudes in a Land Raider, would you ever want to take less than 5? I mean, SWs can potentially take Terminator squads of three, but you never see them run that way.

Also, what do you guys think on including the Stormraven? If you look in the News and Rumor section, a lot of folks think it'll be eventually released to all SM chapters. I think it also makes sense for the DA, especially the Ravenwing. It's more fast moving heavy support, which I imagine is somethig they'd want to get their hands on. I think it can also carry 6 Terminators, which means the Deathwing would probably like it.

you know how BA get blood talons and SW get frost blades, I always though DA should get a MC power sword(not relic blade) that grants +1 ws, this factors in that they a swordmasters akin to the fluff.

Angelic Blade
Power weapon
mater crafted
+1 Weapon skill
20pts

I really like the emphasis on plasma in this fan dex. I love the idea of the plasma lance but have issues with its implementation. I'd suggest instead that you make it a true plasma lance aka with a plasma cannon alternative fire.

48" Str 7 Ap 2 Heavy 1 Lance Gets Hot! or
48" Str 7 Ap 2 Heavy 1 Gets Hot! Ordanance

This may just be me but I see a lance as a strong coherant beam of light and that beam of light scattering strikes me as strange.

Overall I think there is good balance and things cost about what you would expect. I think on the Ven Dread the plasma lance is a bit high and should be 30 points. It seems to me that a TLLC and a Plasma Lance have the same chances vs av 14 and the lance just gets worse below that so why should it be 15 points more? I love the Termies but think they are a bit overcosted as well maybe 35 points a model with the same options. I could have just been spoiled by the Space Wolf termies being 33 points a model tho...I did note that you gave your termies all frag/krak grenades, dont all the marine dexes say you TRADE your power armor, FRAG/KRAK grenades, bolter, ccw/bolt pistol for terminator armor with power sword and storm bolter for xx points?

I have questions about your special plasma rule, if you rolled a Gets Hot! you would have players roll a 4+ to ignore it and if you failed a 3+ to save or just a 4+ to ignore and if you fail to ignore no save? An additional 4+ slows the game down, not too much but a bit. Perhaps just give them a 2+ vs Gets Hot! saves?

Also as an avid IG player I feel save in saying: you dont have to specify Ordanance, Small Blast as its assumed to be small blast unless you specify Ordanance, Large Blast.

Zonder wrote:I really like the emphasis on plasma in this fan dex. I love the idea of the plasma lance but have issues with its implementation. I'd suggest instead that you make it a true plasma lance aka with a plasma cannon alternative fire.

48" Str 7 Ap 2 Heavy 1 Lance Gets Hot! or
48" Str 7 Ap 2 Heavy 1 Gets Hot! Ordanance

This may just be me but I see a lance as a strong coherant beam of light and that beam of light scattering strikes me as strange.

While I see your point, I think altering the profile in this way would change the weapon in a way I don;t really want to. I'd be fine dividing the weapon into two profiles, one like a plasma cannon, and one for anti armor, but I'd like to keep the ordnance penetration dice (2d6, pick the highest) with the lance special rule.

Plus, aren't plasma weapon affected by magnetic fields? While it is a "Lance" id imagine magnetic interference could cause the impact point to me moved.

Overall I think there is good balance and things cost about what you would expect. I think on the Ven Dread the plasma lance is a bit high and should be 30 points. It seems to me that a TLLC and a Plasma Lance have the same chances vs av 14 and the lance just gets worse below that so why should it be 15 points more? I love the Termies but think they are a bit overcosted as well maybe 35 points a model with the same options. I could have just been spoiled by the Space Wolf termies being 33 points a model tho...I did note that you gave your termies all frag/krak grenades, dont all the marine dexes say you TRADE your power armor, FRAG/KRAK grenades, bolter, ccw/bolt pistol for terminator armor with power sword and storm bolter for xx points?

I think it needs to be more expsensive. It preforms two roles extremely well. I'll re-asses the points cost.

Good catch on the Terminators with grenades. Gotta fix that one...

I have questions about your special plasma rule, if you rolled a Gets Hot! you would have players roll a 4+ to ignore it and if you failed a 3+ to save or just a 4+ to ignore and if you fail to ignore no save? An additional 4+ slows the game down, not too much but a bit. Perhaps just give them a 2+ vs Gets Hot! saves?

I think I might just make it a straight up re-roll of the armor save. So, a 3+/3+

Also as an avid IG player I feel save in saying: you dont have to specify Ordanance, Small Blast as its assumed to be small blast unless you specify Ordanance, Large Blast.

Ahh. I thought if no blast was specified, ordnance weapons had no blast.

no thoughts on my idea?

ghe thought behind is according to the DA fluff they are expert swordmasters, so with this Blade they would be slightly better than your standard Marine captain, but only with Swords

Formosa wrote:you know how BA get blood talons and SW get frost blades, I always though DA should get a MC power sword(not relic blade) that grants +1 ws, this factors in that they a swordmasters akin to the fluff.

Angelic Blade
Power weapon
mater crafted
+1 Weapon skill
20pts

Well I'll put my opinion in; it's too much for too little. Sorry for not phrasing it more politely, but my sleep has evaded me!

Ultimately Master Crafted and +1 WS achieve the same thing so only one or the other is needed IMHO. Furthermore, for ensuring it hits, 5pts is too few points. If it was +1 WS on top of a normal power weapon, then that I could accept for 20pts (just). Vice versa for master crafted.

I think with a bit more work you could be onto something, but it's definitely not there yet IMHO...



Btw Endova, some point today I intend to read through the entire thing and highlight anything that may need changing...

hmm maybe 30pts then, problem is its still only str4
maybe +1 str and ws for 30pts, that puts it between Sword o secrets (40pts) and power sword.... actually sod it. loads of armies are getting free upgrades these days.

here is new thought
All DA characters that take a power Sword gain +1 WS.
Simpler yes?

I honestly dont know whats wrong with just bringing back the s6 power weapons we used to have, 1 for azreal, 1 for sammy, 1 for belial, and then limit it to company master/grand master/whatever we're calling it.

For the DW sergeant with relic blade/ss, how about giving him a separate pts cost for the relic blade and for the storm shield, and then just fleshing out his specific options as being separate from the rest of the squad. If you let him take SS for free but up the pts of a relic blade, then less broken but maybe personal choices of like.. relic blade/storm bolter become more expensive because of the potential storm shield.

Edit: wow this lost some steam over christmas. I'd also like to suggest adding heavy flamers to the options available for tactical and devistator squads.