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The Baron is easily the best HQ unit in the codex for the points. For 105pts and the stuff he brings to the army, he's definitely my favorite HQ choice. He's a great force multiplier.

The Baron is easily the best HQ unit in the codex for the points. For 105pts and the stuff he brings to the army, he's definitely my favorite HQ choice. He's a great force multiplier.

His cost and versatility is nice IF you are planning on becoming a Hellion heavy list. I'd argue that Wytch HQ is far more potent option for the points though. Especially in CC.

JGrand wrote:

The Baron is easily the best HQ unit in the codex for the points. For 105pts and the stuff he brings to the army, he's definitely my favorite HQ choice. He's a great force multiplier.

His cost and versatility is nice IF you are planning on becoming a Hellion heavy list. I'd argue that Wytch HQ is far more potent option for the points though. Especially in CC.

I actually only put him into my list because I wanted the +1 to go first. After that, it was a matter of finding a place to make him fit.

I've been planning my DE list since the codex and the first list I put in was a beastmaster unit.

5 beastmasters (1 w/venom blade for wound allocation) and 10 razorwing flocks. I've been playing with cavalry models (rough riders) for a while and people underestimate the range these things move.

Oh and here is my first flock, I used greenstuff kabalite bayonets and a scale hexnut for a phantasm/green goblin mechanical ball of death thing http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/159076-.html?m=2

Dashofpepper wrote:

JGrand wrote:

The Baron is easily the best HQ unit in the codex for the points. For 105pts and the stuff he brings to the army, he's definitely my favorite HQ choice. He's a great force multiplier.

His cost and versatility is nice IF you are planning on becoming a Hellion heavy list. I'd argue that Wytch HQ is far more potent option for the points though. Especially in CC.

I actually only put him into my list because I wanted the +1 to go first. After that, it was a matter of finding a place to make him fit.

He's awkward without Helions because nothing else moves like Jump Infantry. If only he could opt to move like a beast instead, then he could join beast units and give them stealth without compromising their movement!

As for the Razorwing models: I actually like the FW Flying Rippers... they're the frontrunner for my Razorwing Flocks right now. I need to check out the LOTR bats though. For some reason I have this image of mechanical Razorwing Flocks in my head as well, it would be really cool to find something that could fit with that.

He's awkward without Helions because nothing else moves like Jump Infantry. If only he could opt to move like a beast instead, then he could join beast units and give them stealth without compromising their movement!

This. He is a nice army buffer, but if you don't use the buffs he is simply and out of place, sub par Archon.

Caffran9 wrote:He's awkward without Helions because nothing else moves like Jump Infantry.

Scourges move like jump infantry, and I've seen several posters mention putting him with Scourges. Probably not the most point-efficient option, but it definitely seems like it would be effective to put them in cover to shoot.

JGrand wrote:

He's awkward without Helions because nothing else moves like Jump Infantry. If only he could opt to move like a beast instead, then he could join beast units and give them stealth without compromising their movement!

This. He is a nice army buffer, but if you don't use the buffs he is simply and out of place, sub par Archon.

He doesn't compromise their movement, he shortens their assault - which is something you can gauge on the turn you're thinking about doing it. If 12" will get you there, but six will not - detach. If they're in cover and more than 6" away....leave the Baron there and stay in cover while moving forward; no guarantee you'd get it anyway, and surviving a round of shooting is a non-issue.

I'm curious though.....the baron assaulting in with beasts.

They move 2d6 x 2

He moves 6", without a difficult terrain test.

If the unit is together....does he move 6 while the beasts move 2d6 x2, not to exceed 6"? Moving at the speed of the slowest unit depends on what the beasts roll.

His cost and versatility is nice IF you are planning on becoming a Hellion heavy list. I'd argue that Wytch HQ is far more potent option for the points though. Especially in CC.

Meh. While the succubus is cheap she's still only Str3. Sure you can add an agonizer, but then possible Furious Charge, or +1 str combat drugs become worthless buffs IMHO. While the Baron has no power weapons, his ability to get a possible Str 8 is huge. Dunno. I just see him as being more flexible than other HQ choices. He's fast, he gives you +1 to go first, gives himself and a unit stealth, and A&D Grenades...all for 105pts? Yes please.

Caffran9 wrote:
As for the Razorwing models: I actually like the FW Flying Rippers... they're the frontrunner for my Razorwing Flocks right now. I need to check out the LOTR bats though. For some reason I have this image of mechanical Razorwing Flocks in my head as well, it would be really cool to find something that could fit with that.

I has thinking a box of Gargoyles and a box of Hormagaunts would net you some Razorwing swarms and some Termagaunts after some Arm swaps?

He doesn't compromise their movement, he shortens their assault - which is something you can gauge on the turn you're thinking about doing it. If 12" will get you there, but six will not - detach. If they're in cover and more than 6" away....leave the Baron there and stay in cover while moving forward; no guarantee you'd get it anyway, and surviving a round of shooting is a non-issue.

I dunno...either way it seems odd to slow each other down. The Beasts slow the Baron's move, the Baron slows the beasts assault...stealth is pretty nice but I dunno if it's that nice.

Meh. While the succubus is cheap she's still only Str3. Sure you can add an agonizer, but then possible Furious Charge, or +1 str combat drugs become worthless buffs IMHO. While the Baron has no power weapons, his ability to get a possible Str 8 is huge. Dunno. I just see him as being more flexible than other HQ choices. He's fast, he gives you +1 to go first, gives himself and a unit stealth, and A&D Grenades...all for 105pts? Yes please.

No doubt the Baron is a good value. But the question is where to put the guy. The obvious answer is with some Hellions, which isn't bad if you have a free HQ slot. The second is with Scourges and I'm not entirely sold on that unit.

The Succubus has +2 WS, +1 W, +2 I, and +1-2 more attacks. And a 4+ that doesn't break. For the same cost as the Baron you can get an Agonizer, Blast Pistol, and Haywire grenades. Not the greatest thing ever but a better unit in assault for sure.

Either way, I just think Hamonculus are a pretty key HQ. You don't HAVE to use them, but they synergize well with Wytches and Wracks. That leaves 1 HQ slot open. The normal Archon and Succubus are more killy than the Baron for relatively comparable cost. That's pretty much why I feel you have to make the most out of him (by taking multiple units of Hellions) for loss of the HQ slot to be worth it. I suppose that it all depends on your build. And there are plenty of ways to build DE. Which is why it's a successful codex IMO.

Regarding assaulting with the Baron and beasts, I would say they don't double the roll because the unit is not all beasts and since they don't all ignore difficult terrain, they roll as assault through terrain as normal infantry.
While I like the unit quite a bit, the combination of no models( or even size guidelines), coupled with the pain token debate, will probably keep me from taking these anytime soon.

Dashofpepper wrote:

JGrand wrote:

He's awkward without Helions because nothing else moves like Jump Infantry. If only he could opt to move like a beast instead, then he could join beast units and give them stealth without compromising their movement!

This. He is a nice army buffer, but if you don't use the buffs he is simply and out of place, sub par Archon.

He doesn't compromise their movement, he shortens their assault - which is something you can gauge on the turn you're thinking about doing it. If 12" will get you there, but six will not - detach. If they're in cover and more than 6" away....leave the Baron there and stay in cover while moving forward; no guarantee you'd get it anyway, and surviving a round of shooting is a non-issue.

I'm curious though.....the baron assaulting in with beasts.

They move 2d6 x 2

He moves 6", without a difficult terrain test.

If the unit is together....does he move 6 while the beasts move 2d6 x2, not to exceed 6"? Moving at the speed of the slowest unit depends on what the beasts roll.

Right, in so far as the movement/run move he doens't slow them down, but provided he sticks with the unit the whole way, he decreases their threat radius by not letting them charge 12". I meant "movement" as overall reach on a given turn, probably a poor choice of words on my part. I could see letting him leave the unit the turn you want them to charge and then letting him charge in alongside them (ultimately the end up with about the same reach, they just move further in different phases). Or just have him fall off the back of the unit and do his own thing maybe? It feels like a free KP to your opponent in missions where that matters though. I really like his +1, going first is really good for DE.

Skarboy wrote:I use bat swarms for razorwings...(the bats are ugly, ugly models), but they work for now.

I just bought a few of those VC bat swarms for this very purpose, and they are damned fugly. I have a plan, though. These are supposed to be creatures from a nightmare world, and they have big, goofy looking faces, so I'm going to paint them like clowns.

CaptKaruthors wrote:

His cost and versatility is nice IF you are planning on becoming a Hellion heavy list. I'd argue that Wytch HQ is far more potent option for the points though. Especially in CC.

Meh. While the succubus is cheap she's still only Str3. Sure you can add an agonizer, but then possible Furious Charge, or +1 str combat drugs become worthless buffs IMHO. While the Baron has no power weapons, his ability to get a possible Str 8 is huge. Dunno. I just see him as being more flexible than other HQ choices. He's fast, he gives you +1 to go first, gives himself and a unit stealth, and A&D Grenades...all for 105pts? Yes please.

I can't remember how the Baron gets STR8.

STR3, +1 for hellglaive, +2 for board on the charge, +1 furious charge....that's STR7. Where's STR8?

He has combat Drugs does he? That would be your incredibly unlikely way of getting to S8.

I can't remember how the Baron gets STR8.

STR3, +1 for hellglaive, +2 for board on the charge, +1 furious charge....that's STR7. Where's STR8?

You forgot Combat Drugs. It's a 1 in 6 chance, but hey, it's possible. If you really want better odds for it, you can take the Duke as well, but I'd only do that if your army is really reliant on Combat Drugs.

question: I don't know the specifics as to pain tokens.

But can a squad get more than 3? The original post has the character leaving and rejoining the squad randomly, he would take pain tokens with them, and then put them back on the squad when he rejoined (if I read the rule correctly)
wouldn't detaching the character be rather dangerous for the unit? (when they lose furious or FNP because of it)

Grundz wrote:question: I don't know the specifics as to pain tokens.

But can a squad get more than 3? The original post has the character leaving and rejoining the squad randomly, he would take pain tokens with them, and then put them back on the squad when he rejoined (if I read the rule correctly)
wouldn't detaching the character be rather dangerous for the unit? (when they lose furious or FNP because of it)

Two different questions in there....

1. A unit can have more than three - but you only benefit from three.

2. Pain tokens have to be evenly distributed. If the unit has two and you break the baron out, they lose Furious charge and the baron takes one with him to gain FnP. I've noted that its not a perfect setup, but I haven't come up with a better idea.

//whoops nvm i cant read

Powerguy wrote:He has combat Drugs does he? That would be your incredibly unlikely way of getting to S8.

He doesn't. Baron Sathonyx is perhaps the only Hellion in the universe not to use Combat Drugs.

I've been long awaiting the new DE codex, and after over a decade of gaming i've gotten "the eye"
Part of "the eye" is the ability to look at a codex, quickly skim through it and decide "i want that, hmm... no, i DEFINETLY want that, maybe 2"
And beastmasters were that unit for me.

The relativly low points cost (i play Eldar, everything is relativly low points cost now i come to think of it) combined with the following...
Ability to rend.
Ability to have 4++.
Ability to shuffle wound allocation.
Ability to... be cavalry.
Ability to "borrow" PtP tokens.

Alltogehter make this unit a must for any infantry army. I've made lists without them of course, but most lists i can find a space for them.
This unit is an absolute gem, and i'd love to take 3, i really would, but points do limit the choices somewhat.

Not to mention the modelling oppertunities available.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
regarding assault range.
Heres my thinking.
1)
When assaulting you assault at the speed of the slowest model.
To determine the speed of each model you have to take the original assault values and "have a look"
So normally you have some model/s that can assault 12" and some model/s that can assault 6"
When entering terrain, you will have some models that can assault 2D6x2" and some models than can assault 6"
So...Roll 2D6, pick the highest and multiply by two, rounding down to 6" if its higher.

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Alternativly, you could count the terrain effects first.
So normally you have some model/s that can assault 12" and some model/s that can assault 6"
You maximum assault move is 6"
When entering terrain, you will have some models that can assault 2D6" and some models than can assault 6"
so roll 2D6 and pick the highest, giving you 1" to 6" charge range.

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However. Being beasts/cavalry/whatever isn't lost when joined by someone who isn't beasts/cavalry/whatever so...
Its not a USR, its a unit type.
You'd still double their assault range.

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Short Answer...

[2D6(picking the highest)]x2", to a maximum of 6"

i think.

The unit is nasty, but is not broken.

Av12 walkers will tarpit them

Heavy weapon infantry are safe from them on the 2nd floor of a building. Also crowding units seems less dangerous now, liquifier guns are nowhere near as scary as 3rd ed mass plasma cannons/horrorfex.

The one thing that seems really scary is beast packs lurking on the other end of an opened webway portal. The threat range from the portal is huge, and that's just plain deadly in the hands of a good player.

the WWP beasts look rather sick

In fact, the beast master unit looks scary.
Besides all the technical questions, the basic question for me is how to integrate this pack into a DE army (at larger pt levels).
As its a purely cc oriented unit, I'd drop some other cc oriented units like Wyches or Incubi, keeping the shooty elements of the army.