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Two Lictors vs Rune Priest (Independent Character) and Grey Hunter Squad:

Fleet = 13"-18" charge range, Move Through Cover, hits first, Flesh Hooks, 8 attacks, 3+ to hit, Scything Talons, 2+ to wound, Rending = (4)(28/36)(5/6)(16/36) =1.15 unsaved wounds.

Rune Priest
4 attacks, 4+ to hit, 4+ to wound, 5+ to save = (4)(3/6)(3/6)(4/6) = 0.66.

Grey Hunter Squad (9 + knick-knacks)
27 attacks, 4+ to hit, 4+ to wound, 5+ to save = (27)(3/6)(3/6)(4/6) = 4.5

Two Lictors can hit a unit of Grey Hunters, kill the Rune Priest accompanying it, who has to get into base contact with one, and then the survivor can Hit and Run away.

As for showing up on T2 or more, what do you want the Space Wolves to be able to shoot at it during T1? As mentioned, you want the Lictors to come in after whatever they should be hunting.

That's if they're assassinating Independent Characters - otherwise they should hit a unit in concert with another Tyranid unit: their ability to come in from a different angle means you can fit more nasties into combat, and their Flesh Hooks mean that the pressure is taken off the unit without the Assault Grenades.

That does of course assume they don't shoot the Lictors when they arrive, or simply move away.

Aduro wrote:That does of course assume they don't shoot the Lictors when they arrive, or simply move away.

How well do lictors stand up to shooting? I know you have to test to see them like night fighting but dont you also halve that result?

Only the Deathleaper uses the Night Fight rule to shoot at it. Normal Lictors merely get +1 to their Cover Saves, so they'll have a 3+ Cover Save if you sit them in normal area terrain.

Instead of trying to use lictors to pave the way for a deep strike army, I think you're better off just going with genestealers. They're a heck of a lot more effective and cheaper and you can mass infiltrate an army's worth of them right up to your foe. I'd combine that with a parasite of mortrex in a gargoyle swarm, a little termagant unit to hold objectives, and some hive guard to open up transports from behind the gargoyles. At 1750 you're looking at about 60 stealers with toxin sacs up in your opponent's face the first turn with easy turn 2 assaults. Would be fun to try.

Aduro:

They're expected to shoot at the Lictors. But, as you say, a Cv3+ is pretty good, and the 13"-18" charge range with Move Through Cover means that they'll have to move pretty fast to get away, and if they're moving away they're not shooting. Since you can just place them, you can put them in nearby cover. And we know that the opponent will be within 12" of cover, if not actually in cover.

Gibbsey:

That Cv3+ makes them the equivalent of 3 Space Marines each against small arms, though it's template weapons you should worry about. They aren't tough, but they do need firepower to 'solve', and you can use their placement rules to toughen them up with cover, difficult terrain, and line-of-sight blocking terrain.

Something to consider is forgoing fancy deployment and having them pop up where the Spore Cloud of a Venomthrope brood will cover them.

Was my post just ignored?

You don't make your lictor a threat unless you want your opponent to fire at it. with a 13-18" threat range, it can survive. If you try that "im going to pop behing your rhino and I might do something" stuff... you will loose the lictor.

Either use it to divide your opponents forces, if you get LUCKY to take something out, and if it come in late, contest objectives to help win the game.

And do I have to go over that "You CAN get a 2+ cover" thing...

Note on deathleaper: Most people forget about the Deathleapers night fighting roll... you half the distance rolled. On average.. they will roll 7 on 2D6 which multiplies to 21 with means a 10.5" threat range from shooting. And when it comes out, you will probably put it in area terrain anyway.

You need to remember that it is primarily good at dividing fire. 1 or 2 less units into YOUR HOARD because they are busy trying to kill the deathleaper.

Frequently when one's Lictors arrive on the board, they are certaintly loosed...

Getting Cv2+ is pretty useless as it means another turn of your Lictor doing nothing but soaking firepower, which means that as soon as the Lictor goes to ground, your opponent can stop worrying about it for another turn and concentrate on immediate threats.

A brood of Lictors will only divide your opponent's firepower if they constitute a threat with which they can deal before the Lictors can charge. If they can't, or face better returns shooting at other units, they'll ignore the Lictors and take it on the chin.

That's the thing: Lictors do not constitute threats to units.

Lictors only constitute threats to models, such as Independent Characters, and small units like Long Fangs.

They can be used as leverage for units in reserve, and entering by Deep Strike, but they're more useful as leverage for locking units in difficult terrain and assassinating Independent Characters.

Lock a unit in difficult terrain and Tyranid units without Assault Grenades won't suffer the Initiative penalty for charging the locked unit. Because they can come in from a non-frontal vector, you won't find them blocking charges like a unit of Genestealers will.

Lictors have the combination of high Initiative and Assault Grenades that gives them an assassination ability lacking in similar units like Genestealers: if the Genestealers assault, they'll be attacking at I1 if their charge connects, and be likely to have fewer attacks thanks to the difficult terrain your opponent will be camping in.

They have both the rule to help the charge connect (Move Through Cover) and to make it count (Flesh Hooks are Assault Grenades), and to bug out and move onto the next unit (Hit and Run).

Many Tyranid units face a perennial problem for assault units in 5th edition: If they charge and destroy their enemy then all they have been them and enemy fire the following player turn is a 1D6" consolidation move. Conversely, if they do get caught in close combat, either because their comparatively weak Toughness and Armour save came into play because they had to attack at I1, or they simply got unlucky, they'll either be destroyed or lose too many models to be effective if they survive.

This is where the Lictor's ability to engage, locked down, and exit combat comes in. T1 the Lictor brood engages and locks a unit from the flank or rear. This means the unit cannot shoot and cannot count on the Initiative penalty protecting it from a Tyranid assault unless it can kill all the Lictors in the brood, and leaves their front open to assault. T2 the Genestealer brood (or whatever) moves in and the unit gets eaten by Genestealers and Lictors.

If the target unit was not in difficult terrain, the Lictors still have a job to do, but exit the combat at the end of the second player's T1. In T2 the Genestealers (or whoever*) arrive and kill the unit caught in the open while the Lictors locks down another unit having not spent a turn exposed to fire and instead softening up a unit for an enemy assault.

Interestingly Carnifex, who are slow since they cannot run and charge, but have Frag Spines, really benefit from this interaction (and goes some way to explaining why these units are less popular when their synergy is generally disregarded) because they can charge at I4 (Living Battering Ram and Adrenal Gland) with Assault Grenades, so the Lictors just need to lock a unit in place so that a Carnifex can move in and mop up - the Lictor brood locks the unit and again bugs out when it's time to charge another unit.

Which is, incidentally, why you need broods of 3. A brood of 2 is the same cost as the Deathleaper, but you need the third because you can expect to lose a Lictor in each combat, particularly when hunting Independent Characters. The loss of those Lictors will be offset by the other models that will survive to attack because the Lictors have done their jobs taking out Independent Characters, and locking down units for the slower Tyranids (such as the aforementioned Carnifex) to charge.

Lictors, though may not be a threat for larger units, DO draw fire. Why? because it is a free kill. Because lictors are used so infrequently, that people don't know what to expect from them. I prefer the deathleaper.. as it is a threat to most infantry... not just small units.

I think you'll have to explain the concept of a "free kill".

Lets say the mission is Killpoints. If you have some, obviously CC unit, pop out 12" away from you, you ask your opponent the stats of said unit. When they hear that it is T4.. thats all they need. Now all of a sudden a tactical squad seems like they can kill it. 1 unsaved missile, 3 unsaved rapidfire bolters, ext will earn your opponent a KP. This is of course, for 1 lictor. But it isn't that big a steach to say that 2 10 man tacts can take it out. Notice that it is 2. 1 wouldn't cut it. This decission actually hurts your opponent. they have 3 wounds each. Ignoring them and they can charge. Ignore what you know about how effective it is. Look through your opponents eyes. A TYRANID that enters play anywhere it wants to, looks cool, and is obviously made for close combat. Your opponent will want to shoot it down. SOME of their firepower will go into it. If they don't shoot into it, you could probably nick off a few models and not have to many problems. Combat squads, IC (as you said) ext. They are threatened by these and it is easy to get to them with such a large threat range.

In objectives missions.. they just contest with a 2+ cover. they don't need to assassinate anything to become a threat.

By free kill... i mean that it is T4... and you look through your opponents eyes. What looks like an easy kill turns out not to be.

There is of course that downside in that you're spending 65pts and using up a slot in our best bracket of the Force Org chart to give your opponent an easy KP.

wisdomeyes1:

I expect my opponents to know the capabilities of Lictors. Likewise I prefer being proactive: better to kill first than to hope you can survive on the defense.

Aduro:

A single Lictor isn't much use. You should spend 195pts and an Elite slot. Personally I find my Troop slots more useful and squeezed for space.

Oh I've tried using the solo Lictors in the past. They get beat up by Fire Warriors in close combat. That's Tau, beating up on `Nids! It just ain't right... When I use Lictors anymore I use them in groups for sure.

Nurglitch wrote:wisdomeyes1:

I expect my opponents to know the capabilities of Lictors. Likewise I prefer being proactive: better to kill first than to hope you can survive on the defense.

Aduro:

A single Lictor isn't much use. You should spend 195pts and an Elite slot. Personally I find my Troop slots more useful and squeezed for space.

Oh. Don't get me wrong. I expect for my opponent to know what the lictor can do. The turn it arrives though, it can't do anything. My hope is that it will serve as a distraction.

Using them to get rid of I modifiers is a great tactic... but it only starts working by Turn 3, which is why people are not a huge fan of the lictor.
My tactics branch out more toward the turn it comes in.. not turns after it does, as your tactics need.

so my question now is, which is better 3 lictors or the Deathleaper? And if someone would be so kind as to recall a time when either has done somthing good, like contest an objective or kill an independent, or taken heavy fire and lived through it (or died distracting a unit), since 40k is a situational game, based off luck and timing, thanks for all your input!!!

Brood Lord, I find Deathleaper's ability to slow approaching units useful, sometimes -- I used it to slow a big Ork mob down, so it took them an extra turn or two to get to my gaunts on an objective in a ruin (all the while being shot at by the gaunts and the Deathleaper, from the lovely cover of the ruins). It's not worth all his points by itself... but he is a very versatile unit.

interesting, I play a freind whos an ork player, I'll have to try this...

There's a whooooole lot of ifs, maybes and shoulds flying around in an attempt to make these guys useful. It's just not going to happen. Less points per model gives you more reliability and effectiveness with the lynch pin Hive Guard. That right there is pretty much the end of any discussion. It's unfortunate but true. I still have my second edition Lictor models sitting around waiting for one edition where they do something besides suck but this one's not it gentlemen and ladies.

I'm gonna rise his thread again how can we make 6e lictors useful now? I mean rules have changed I wat to make mine useful as I have two of them
Some pros to start hem off:
3+ save in barricades and other good terrain places.
Can be placed nearly anywhere on the board.
If you have 2-3 you could possibly trap small units/big based models as they can't move within one inch of you without assaulting so they may die but can hold things up for your other nidsy goodness to come in.

Any other ideas?

I've had a bit of success running a trio of Lictors. First things first, forget their Deep Strike boosting rule. Like the Trygon's Tunnels, this rule normally comes into play so late that it's not worth it. The only exception would be late-game, if you're running a Mawloc and want to precision-snipe something (which is itself not a bad move). Building around the Lictor's ability to call in extra support isn't going to work wholesale though.

This means that we have to treat Lictors as exactly what they are; a small group of fairly hard-hitting beasties with the capacity to take out high-value, fragile targets that otherwise might be out of reach. They have to work like a real predator would; choose their moments and minimise the risks up to that point.

As others have said, it can be very, very tempting to put them behind a transport vehicle and think "I'll shoot it this turn, survive the return fire and then assault next turn!", but the vast majority of targets are going to inflict serious damage on your Lictors before you get your charge the following turn.

It is much safer to place them somewhere fairly safe (remember, it's easy to get a 3+, or even 2+ cover save with them, if you put them in LoS at all) and then bring them into play later when they have their full range of movement available. That way, you can use them to start taking out heavy support infantry lurking in cover, or Guard artillery platforms etc.

Two final points; i) although I have said avoid placing your Lictors in high-risk situations for a chance at that surprise rear-armour kill, occasionally there will be times where it's so beneficial to you that you really should do it, even if you lose the Lictors afterwards (wrecked vehicles do provide nice cover though), and ii) don't under-estimate the psychological effect a Lictor trio has.


Bonus tactic: Get Hive Commander for a 2+ arrival on Turn 2, deploy 3+ Lictors to shoot open a transport and at the same time use a Mycetic Spore to bring in three Zoanthropes with Psychic Shriek to completely shred whatever climbs out of the tank. High risk, prone to failure but very, very funny.

But I only haz two lictors :(
And I wiz thinking of trapping peeps in corners for the lulz

wisdomseyes1 wrote:

Note on deathleaper: Most people forget about the Deathleapers night fighting roll... you half the distance rolled. On average.. they will roll 7 on 2D6 which multiplies to 21 with means a 10.5" threat range from shooting. And when it comes out, you will probably put it in area terrain anyway.

I'm afraid his night fighting roll was FAQ'ed out.

GW Tyranid FAQ wrote:Page 59 – Deathleaper, Where is it?
Change this entry to read “Deathleaper has the Shrouded
special rule.”

Page 2

Anyway, I do not own any Lictors currently, but I have been tempted to try running a few in conjunction with Mawlocs (I actually do have one that I enjoy running from time to time). The Mawloc doesn't need to worry about reserve rolls to take advantage of Pheremone Trail thanks to their Burrow ability. They can simply hide somewhere on the table out of sight and out of mind until the turn the Lictor comes in, then burrow and automatically arrive the turn PT kicks in.

Also as far as I am aware, there is nothing in the Terror from the Deep rules or FAQ on it that prohibt the Mawloc from intentionally deepstriking under an ongoing combat and hitting the combatants with its blast. It might be amusing to combine that with Lictors who are performing tie-up duties, since they insure the blast ends up over the models you want and thereby conserves your own bodies.

I haven't used Lictors before because they appear beyond useless and outmatched by everything in the Elites section but the Pyrovore. That said, I have used the Deathleaper and, while overcosted, he's a ton of fun. He's rather risky, but can be a monster if you play him with finesse (he's not a point-and-kill like the Doom).

 Strat_N8 wrote:

wisdomseyes1 wrote:

Note on deathleaper: Most people forget about the Deathleapers night fighting roll... you half the distance rolled. On average.. they will roll 7 on 2D6 which multiplies to 21 with means a 10.5" threat range from shooting. And when it comes out, you will probably put it in area terrain anyway.

I'm afraid his night fighting roll was FAQ'ed out.

GW Tyranid FAQ wrote:Page 59 – Deathleaper, Where is it?
Change this entry to read “Deathleaper has the Shrouded
special rule.”

Page 2

The post you're responding to was written during 5th edition...

rigeld2 wrote:

The post you're responding to was written during 5th edition...

Ooops... I just saw the thread title and assumed the entire thing was a relatively new one. Serves me right for not looking at the dates.