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DakkaDakka wrote:

Except the only time you can do a Night Fight check is when firing a weapon. SO by saying it isnt a weapon (it isnt) it means you cannot use a searchlight unless you are also firing a weapon.

This has been explained well enough by everyone else, it's not particularly unclear...

No, it simply asks you to take a Night Fighting roll to use it.

"It is much harder to accurately identify enemy units at
night; warriors must be sure of their targets before
opening fire, and tend to be more cautious than
normal. After selecting a target, but before a unit fires,
a check needs to be made to see if the firers can clearly
spot their target through the darkness. Roll 2D6 and
multiply the result by 3, then measure the distance
between the two units (remember that distances
to/from vehicles are measured to/from their hull, and
not their guns). If the distance between the firing unit
and their target is higher than the total rolled, the unit
cannot fire at all in this Shooting phase, as they search
the dark for a target that never appears." p95, BRB

Not sure in there where it says you must fire or be able to fire, just that you must nominate a target at a time before you would normally fire your weapons, which is the Shooting Phase.

After selecting a target = first step in the Shooting Phase when FIRING A WEAPON.

but before a unit fires = well, here's that "fires" thing I mentioned. Guess that requires a weapon as that is the only thing that "fires" in 40k terms.

If the distance between the firing unit = See, the word "firing" is used here. How are you a "firing unit" unless you are actually firing a weapon? You've already correctly identified that the search light isnt a weapon.


I'd suggest looking harder before c&ping from the PDF and proclaiming that it does require you to be FIRING a weapon...

em_en_oh_pee wrote:Not sure in there where it says you must fire or be able to fire, just that you must nominate a target at a time before you would normally fire your weapons, which is the Shooting Phase.

The bit about selecting a target is exactly where it is saying you must be able to fire, as choosing a target is the first step of the shooting process. If you're not shooting, you have no reason to be following the shooting process... For that, the searchlight rules would have to specifically tell you to choose a target as you would when firing a weapon, rather than just slotting in as a part of the existing shooting process.

em_en_oh_pee wrote:No, it simply asks you to take a Night Fighting roll to use it.

"It is much harder to accurately identify enemy units at
night; warriors must be sure of their targets before
opening fire, and tend to be more cautious than
normal. After selecting a target, but before a unit fires,
a check needs to be made to see if the firers can clearly
spot their target through the darkness. Roll 2D6 and
multiply the result by 3, then measure the distance
between the two units (remember that distances
to/from vehicles are measured to/from their hull, and
not their guns). If the distance between the firing unitand their target is higher than the total rolled, the unit
cannot fire at all in this Shooting phase, as they search
the dark for a target that never appears." p95, BRB

Not sure in there where it says you must fire or be able to fire, just that you must nominate a target at a time before you would normally fire your weapons, which is the Shooting Phase.

How about all the bolded parts?

Here's the part that (if you'll excuse the pun) see the light- From the Blood Angel Codex under searchlight (but all of the other 5th ed codices are about the same), "If a vehicle has a searchlight it must still use the night fighting rules to pick a target but, having acquired a target, will illuminate it with the searchlight."
The underlined part is what clinched it for me. You must first target a unit with a weapon and if it is a viable target then the it can be illuminated and shot.

insaniak wrote:

em_en_oh_pee wrote:Not sure in there where it says you must fire or be able to fire, just that you must nominate a target at a time before you would normally fire your weapons, which is the Shooting Phase.

The bit about selecting a target is exactly where it is saying you must be able to fire, as choosing a target is the first step of the shooting process. If you're not shooting, you have no reason to be following the shooting process... For that, the searchlight rules would have to specifically tell you to choose a target as you would when firing a weapon, rather than just slotting in as a part of the existing shooting process.

That is an assumption.

Where does it say that if you cannot shoot, you cannot still select a target for a Searchlight. It is a piece of wargear, not a weapon. I suppose I am just reading what it written and seeing it differently. When I see "before opening fire" and "before a unit fires", I don't see "must fire a weapon" attached. All I see is that to use a Searchlight, you pick a target as per shooting via Night Fighting, but as it is not a weapon and is instead Wargear, it doesn't adhere to a "can't shoot" rule. What it does say concerning firing is that if you do fail the Night Fighting test for the Searchlight, you have basically thus failed your Night Fighting check to shoot in that phase as though you had tested normally to see a target.

em_en_oh_pee wrote:That is an assumption.

Where is the assumption? Is 'Choosing a target' not part of the shooting process?

The only assumption I am making is that you don't follow the shooting rules if you're not shooting. Which isn't really much of an assumption.

em_en_oh_pee wrote:Where does it say that if you cannot shoot, you cannot still select a target for a Searchlight.

Where does it say that you can?

All I see is that to use a Searchlight, you pick a target as per shooting via Night Fighting,

But where exactly are you seeing that? Because the rules don't say it. They say to use the searchlight after picking a target. They do not tell you to choose a target as if you were firing a weapon in order to use the searchlight.

It's a subtle distinction that makes a world of difference to how it works.


In order for the searchlight to work as you are claiming, you would need a specific rule that actually tells you to use the shooting process despite the fact that you're not actually shooting. There is no such specific rule... which means the only way you are allowed to follow the shooting process is if you are shooting. And at a particular stage of that process, the searchlight kicks in.

The night fighting rules state that the checks are made before shooting, after selecting a target.

Personally, if I'm going to have my units doing things before they do the impossible (like firing when they don't have weapons), I prefer to set higher goals like firing 2nd edition sustained fire plasma cannons.

I suppose this comes down to the "Shooting Process" portion and the whole "can't shoot" thing. I have been reading and re-reading the rulebook and I am thinking that a unit that is Stunned or Shaken might not be able to use it, due to the language, but would a unit without weapons fall into this category? They can technically nominate a target in the shooting phase, but simply have no weapons to use.

In the "Shooting Process", it doesn't say they must shoot, just may, and it also doesn't say you must have weapons to do so, just that you must nominate a target you want to shoot, where during Step 2 you would use Night Fighting to use the Searchlight.

To make use of the Shooting process, you must attempt to shoot. If you are not shooting, you have no permission or ability to begin the Shooting process.