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Yep, if you read what I wrote I said you need to force allocation to each model - I'm aware that is done both before rolling saves and before rolling on the table.

So if you have 2 models, the unit shooting at it needs 2 glances/pens in order to neutralize the unit. If you have a damaged model and the unit takes a single glance or pen, the damaged model can take that. If your unit takes a glance and a pen, the shaken can take the pen. There is some things you can do with allocation in squadrons that you can't do in MM bike squads.

This may be true, in regards to allocations, but that is still one shot less just as consistent as the bikers.

Also, there are things you can do with allocation like you said but most times it just does not have any real effect because once they are damaged, they are damaged and the attacker can move on to other targets.

Also think about it in regards that lowAV hunters are going to be firing multiple shots that tear AV10 to shreds and there most likely will never be "just one glance/pen" unless they start getting desperate, and at that point you probably have already won or lost (winning in that they are desperate, and losing in that the speeders are the only thing left on the board because they have just been neutralizing them the whole game like you proposed)

@ 1500 I run 2 squadrons of 2 typhoons/hb

These guys are straight nasty, and truly aren't as easy to kill as most would think.

I run an odd list though which makes my opponents double think what to shoot @

Infilltrating assault termies w shrike, 2 las/plas razorbacks, 2 auto/las predators or the speeder squadrons amongst other less viable targets.

I can always have the speeders getting cover if I don't go first


for 360 points, they can do everything except reliably take down/slow down AV 14 ... although they did immobilize a monolith yesterday

Baawwww. No love for Dual HB speeders =(

i plan on using all my fast attack slots for deep striking land speeder squads. Maybe 3 or 2 to a squad. I know I am probable asking for trouble, but land speeders are orgasmic.

shealyr wrote:
WE ALL KNOW SPEEDERS ARE EASY TO KILL. That's not the issue in question here. The really debate is if a Speeder can be useful, despite this. My answer is a firm yes.

I agree. Some posters here seem to be arguing that the fact speeders are easy to kill makes them not worth taking. I don't think this is a very good argument. If the speeder can do its job before it dies, and if its job is something that nothing else in the SM arsenal can do, then who cares if it's easy to kill?

For me, the big advantage of a MM or MM/HF speeder is how good it is at stopping land raiders specifically. Lascannons/assault cannons are pitiful against AR14. Meltaguns or MM mounted on non-podding tacs or dreads need a couple of turns to get close (or have to wait for the LR to come closer before they're in melta range). A MM speeder is the one thing that can deepstrike on turn 2, or lurk up and pounce on the land raider, while it's still far away--thus stranding the guys inside the landraider--usually nasty terminators or the like--far away from my guys. Yes, it's not 100%. But to me, even a 50% chance of stopping a 500+ point raider deathstar across the table is worth the 60-70 points.

Plus, because it's a vehicle, a speeder can always try to stop a land raider (or battlewagon or other vehicle) for one turn by boosting up and parking 1" in front of it. Because of the skimmer-ramming/dodge rule, the raider winds up sitting there 66% of the time (even more for a squadron) not moving. Bikes can't do that.

Of course, all the above statements only apply to the MM/HF speeder. Typhoon speeders are a bargain and much more survivable because of their mobility and range. I routinely run 2-4 typhoons in 1 or 2 squadrons, and I can count on about 3 fingers the number of times the whole squadron has ever been wiped out.

Conversely, if a Land Speeder can be killed before doing anything significant, who cares what it can do?

Right, and my experience of the MM/HF speeders is that most of the time they do their significant thing, then are destroyed. Therefore, that makes them worth putting in an army, IMO, in spite of the fact that they are easy to kill.

I've found that a MM/HF, running at 70pts, can fairly easilly get off at least one 2d6 armor pen shot against the side of a tank. If my speeder can wreck a russ in the first or second turn, it's paid for itself

1 problem with mm/hf speeders.... speeders in general for that matter.... is that they dont handle thunderwolves at all. had some first hand experience of this about 2 hours ago. multi meltas in general have this issue.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:1 problem with mm/hf speeders.... speeders in general for that matter.... is that they dont handle thunderwolves at all. had some first hand experience of this about 2 hours ago. multi meltas in general have this issue.

You prolly havent tried HB Speeders =)

thats.... actually.... a good point. had never even thought of heavy bolters in that capacity.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:thats.... actually.... a good point. had never even thought of heavy bolters in that capacity.

Im not trolling. HB speeders are good, in fact I am weirded out why nobody uses them in this configuration. Seeing as there really isn't any actual competition in the FA slot, HB speeders are pretty good. C:SM don't have effective long range anti-infantry arsenal.

They are only 60 points each, and nobody bothers shooting at them. They eat thunderwolves, terminators, most deathstar shenanigans by wound saturation. They are best used by squads of 2.

yeah I guess thats true. new idea. for me anyway.

i love to use speeders.
the dual HB speeders in units of three are the bain of many local players. They put out 18 HB shots per turn. and if you dont manage to kill them by the end of the game i start planting them all over my foes objectives. Melta Flamer speeders do earn their points back in spades. Your foe will have to learn to deal with the deep strike or the turnbo boost rendering their whole back field unsafe. Lots of guys here absolutely hate them courtesty of me and one of the locals who learned to love them from seeing mine in action on his room mate. in short they are great.

sennacherib wrote:i love to use speeders.
the dual HB speeders in units of three are the bain of many local players. They put out 18 HB shots per turn. and if you dont manage to kill them by the end of the game i start planting them all over my foes objectives. Melta Flamer speeders do earn their points back in spades. Your foe will have to learn to deal with the deep strike or the turnbo boost rendering their whole back field unsafe. Lots of guys here absolutely hate them courtesty of me and one of the locals who learned to love them from seeing mine in action on his room mate. in short they are great.

Woohoo. spread the HB speeder love brotha

shealyr wrote:For Typhoons, going with 2 in a unit gives you immunity from stunned results, which is great for keeping those backfield fire support Speeders firing.

I'm sorry, but what? Squadron rules do not negate stunned results, merely downgrade them to shaken.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:1 problem with mm/hf speeders.... speeders in general for that matter.... is that they dont handle thunderwolves at all. had some first hand experience of this about 2 hours ago. multi meltas in general have this issue.

Yeah, multimeltas are really only optimal against heavy tanks, and heavy flamers against T3-4 targets with 4+ or worse saves. Against thunderwolves I personally prefer the typhoon/HB speeder.

I used to run 3 units of 2 HB landspeeders in a light armored force, Razorbacks and preds form an effective gunline while the speeders provide speed and flanking power.

The idea is the speeders provide the least threat on the board and pointswise, you have only invested minimum points for 6 light vehicles. The problem for me with power speeder squadrons - HB/AssCan, Typhoons and to a lesser degree MM/MM or MM/HF - is that they are deemed a major threat and targeted. Kept with HB, they are secondary targets and get ignored. 18 HB shots per turn are just a quality add to your firepower. Now with the latest options, I might think about HB/HB or
HB/HF or HB/MM for the options and low cost but - money not being the object - I would almost rather have another HB speeder.

Used in a flanking force, they even threaten armor as all those S5 shots are not healthy for AV 10 rear armor. While not a 1st turn threat, they cause more pressure as the game proceeds.

I got intrigued by the talk on double HB speeders versus Typhoons, so I've decided to run some numbers and compare 2 Typhoons speeders with HB (THB), with 3 double HB speeders (DHB), since the points are equivalents.

(First number is casualties inflicted if the speeders move up to 6", second number is from 6+ to 12")

Against MEQ (T4, 3+)
DHB : 2.66, 1.33
THB : 3.11, 2.22
If target in 4+ cover
THB : 2, 1.11
Clear advantage to the typhoons, but the double HBs are slightly better if the targets are in hard cover

Against TEQ (T4, 2+)
DHB : 1.33, 0.66
THB : 0.81, 0.44
Clear advantage for the double HBs, the typhoons are actually better off using their HBs if they move at combat speed...

Against GEQ (T3 5+)
DHB : 10, 5
THB : 10.33, 10.33
I didn't take cover into account, since it affects both types equally, and I assumed the frag missiles always manage to hit 2 units. If you assume the frag missiles will hit less targets on average, the double HBs take the advantage, otherwise they're pretty equal.
The Typhoon maintain the advantage at combat speed, since they can still fire all their weapons.

Against Carnifex (T6 3+)
DHB : 1.33, 0.66
THB : 2.66, 2.22
Typhoon is obviously superior there, even if the carnifex can get 4+ cover.

If you factor in the fact that 2 typhoons cost the same as 3 dual-HB speeders, it feels pretty well balanced.

For me, typhoons are still a better choice because I use the krak pretty much exclusively (and thus also the 48" standoff range with a 12" move). Because preds supply all the anti-horde shots I need, I prefer the typhoon's long-range transport cracking and AP3 marine-killing firepower.

Flavius Infernus wrote:If you factor in the fact that 2 typhoons cost the same as 3 dual-HB speeders, it feels pretty well balanced.

For me, typhoons are still a better choice because I use the krak pretty much exclusively (and thus also the 48" standoff range with a 12" move). Because preds supply all the anti-horde shots I need, I prefer the typhoon's long-range transport cracking and AP3 marine-killing firepower.

Yup. It all depends on what your army comp is. It's just that I'm amazed nobody does HB speeders when they are good, let alone mention them at all.

Probably because if you wanted heavy bolters, plain razorbacks are probably a better platform for it. Its much easier and cheaper to get heavy bolters there than the other weapons you can put on your Landspeeder.

either razorbacks or Dakka Preds, dirt cheap auto/hb sponsons

I've never used a Pred, personally, but the idea doesn't appeal to me. The sponsons seem to have a hard time both drawing LOS to a target unless you pivot towards it, and by doing that, you often expose your weak side AV11. What's the point of paying for front AV13 if the side is so weak?

Razorbacks seem like a better point investment to me. T/L Heavy Bolter, plus a scoring squad inside which can be rockin' a combi-melta, or if you're space pups, a meltagun.

HudsonD wrote:I got intrigued by the talk on double HB speeders versus Typhoons, so I've decided to run some numbers and compare 2 Typhoons speeders with HB (THB), with 3 double HB speeders (DHB), since the points are equivalents.

(First number is casualties inflicted if the speeders move up to 6", second number is from 6+ to 12")

Against MEQ (T4, 3+)
DHB : 2.66, 1.33
THB : 3.11, 2.22
If target in 4+ cover
THB : 2, 1.11
Clear advantage to the typhoons, but the double HBs are slightly better if the targets are in hard cover

Against TEQ (T4, 2+)
DHB : 1.33, 0.66
THB : 0.81, 0.44
Clear advantage for the double HBs, the typhoons are actually better off using their HBs if they move at combat speed...

Against GEQ (T3 5+)
DHB : 10, 5
THB : 10.33, 10.33
I didn't take cover into account, since it affects both types equally, and I assumed the frag missiles always manage to hit 2 units. If you assume the frag missiles will hit less targets on average, the double HBs take the advantage, otherwise they're pretty equal.
The Typhoon maintain the advantage at combat speed, since they can still fire all their weapons.

Against Carnifex (T6 3+)
DHB : 1.33, 0.66
THB : 2.66, 2.22
Typhoon is obviously superior there, even if the carnifex can get 4+ cover.

i still prefer the versitility of the Typhoon.

these show it draws against most infantry(or close enough to be a negligable advantage to the DHB speeders)

The typhoon can attack tanks too and still go against infantry.

and personally i think you would hit 3 Infantry with each Frag blast. few opponents take all the time needed to properly space their troops and average scatter will hit multiple models.

shealyr wrote:I've never used a Pred, personally, but the idea doesn't appeal to me. The sponsons seem to have a hard time both drawing LOS to a target unless you pivot towards it, and by doing that, you often expose your weak side AV11. What's the point of paying for front AV13 if the side is so weak?

Predators have the range to be able to sit way back at the table edge and still reach their targets. So if you're nearish a corner (wish I could draw a picture) and pivot back there, the geometry of the side arcs is such that a firing model would have to be really close/off the table on at least one side, and you can bear with both sponsons while keeping most or all of the threats in your huge forward arc cone. Try setting it up on a table and you'll see what I mean.

The further away the enemy firing unit is, the easier it is to keep it in the forward arc (this is why vindicators, which have to close in to shoot, can't use their front armor as effectively). Add terrain and other vehicles for cover saves, and predators are really hard to kill with long range shooting. Mostly the only time mine ever die is from outflanking/fast melta shots and in assaults.

Flavius Infernus wrote:Predators have the range to be able to sit way back at the table edge and still reach their targets. So if you're nearish a corner (wish I could draw a picture) and pivot back there, the geometry of the side arcs is such that a firing model would have to be really close/off the table on at least one side, and you can bear with both sponsons while keeping most or all of the threats in your huge forward arc cone. Try setting it up on a table and you'll see what I mean.

The further away the enemy firing unit is, the easier it is to keep it in the forward arc (this is why vindicators, which have to close in to shoot, can't use their front armor as effectively). Add terrain and other vehicles for cover saves, and predators are really hard to kill with long range shooting. Mostly the only time mine ever die is from outflanking/fast melta shots and in assaults.

That makes sense. I do need to try it sometime. I guess I'm just biased with my own experiences against Predators, and having them rarely, if ever, do much to hurt me.

Another thing that turns me off is that for points less I can get 2 Razorbacks. Sure I lose the autocannon, but I gain twin-linked on the heavy bolters and get a transport capacity to go with it.

Plus the whole needing to stay stationary to fire everything, while Typhoon Speeders can move 12" and still shoot their full anti-infantry payload.

The point of HB or HB/HB speeders versus a Typhoon is not presenting it as a primary threat to an opponent. I don't know about you but field a high cost vehicle and one of the things you look for is where are the MM, Lascannons and ML in their forces. Those are your threats. So if you did a MM/MM speeder, it is a must kill and with AV 10 I can target it with almost anything. A Typhoon is lateral movement and counts on its 48" range to keep it out of danger. The low cost, relatively low threat HB speeders go way down in target priority. The low cost also means it is not a real killer if he focuses on them early when your squadrons of 2 are around 100 pts.

Where they shine starts on about turn 4 when they are manuevered around the enemy and their rear AV is exposed. A mini hammer to a firing line anvil. They can contest objectives and shoot up any on foot units. The issue of course is you need to have the firing line be the primary threat. My old list used to run Las/plas razorbacks, preds and even devastators to focus the enemy and leave the speeders alone.

HudsonD wrote:I got intrigued by the talk on double HB speeders versus Typhoons, so I've decided to run some numbers and compare 2 Typhoons speeders with HB (THB), with 3 double HB speeders (DHB), since the points are equivalents.

(First number is casualties inflicted if the speeders move up to 6", second number is from 6+ to 12")

Against MEQ (T4, 3+)
DHB : 2.66, 1.33
THB : 3.11, 2.22
If target in 4+ cover
THB : 2, 1.11
Clear advantage to the typhoons, but the double HBs are slightly better if the targets are in hard cover

Against TEQ (T4, 2+)
DHB : 1.33, 0.66
THB : 0.81, 0.44
Clear advantage for the double HBs, the typhoons are actually better off using their HBs if they move at combat speed...

Against GEQ (T3 5+)
DHB : 10, 5
THB : 10.33, 10.33
I didn't take cover into account, since it affects both types equally, and I assumed the frag missiles always manage to hit 2 units. If you assume the frag missiles will hit less targets on average, the double HBs take the advantage, otherwise they're pretty equal.
The Typhoon maintain the advantage at combat speed, since they can still fire all their weapons.

Against Carnifex (T6 3+)
DHB : 1.33, 0.66
THB : 2.66, 2.22
Typhoon is obviously superior there, even if the carnifex can get 4+ cover.

And when you run the numbers against AV as well the Typhoon is the clear winner.

I am a huge fan of mathhammer, but things like versatility cannot be calculated. Yet it shouldn't be ignored.