Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

9 Speeders with Multi-melta/Hvy Flamer in a Vulkan list can be brutal to face. We have a guy in our area who uses this and it can wreck horde or armor. The twin-linked takes a good weapon load out from good to stupid good.

HB/HB Speeders are all about target blur. Typhoons usually get shot by long range, mid-strength weapons such as auto cannons and MLs. MM/HF speeders are high on target priority.

People are forgetting that HB^2 speeders are all about anti-infantry duties - something space marines lack when their heavy slots would rather have anything than a dakka pred.

The funny thing about the typhoon is that, more often than not you'll have it fire at AV targets rather than infantry -the illusion of versatility esp when frag missiles aren't really that of a bomb. Finally, iits a horrible to squad them too. Don't get me wrong, typhoons are good, just not as anti-infantry work.

The funny thing about the typhoon is that, more often than not you'll have it fire at AV targets rather than infantry -the illusion of versatility esp when frag missiles aren't really that of a bomb. Finally, iits a horrible to squad them too. Don't get me wrong, typhoons are good, just not as anti-infantry work.

In addition to what you just said, lately I've been wondering whether they are really worth their 90 points price tag at all for SW for example. Instead of taking three in the FA slots, one could just as well buy 75 point empty Las/Plas Razorbacks for Long Fangs for a somewhat different weapon loadout but more armour value and a cheaper price tag. The difference isn't big in any case but Typhoons seem to be one of those units you take after every other slot is full and you still need more fire support.

Therion wrote:

The funny thing about the typhoon is that, more often than not you'll have it fire at AV targets rather than infantry -the illusion of versatility esp when frag missiles aren't really that of a bomb. Finally, iits a horrible to squad them too. Don't get me wrong, typhoons are good, just not as anti-infantry work.

In addition to what you just said, lately I've been wondering whether they are really worth their 90 points price tag at all for SW for example. Instead of taking three in the FA slots, one could just as well buy 75 point empty Las/Plas Razorbacks for Long Fangs for a somewhat different weapon loadout but more armour value and a cheaper price tag. The difference isn't big in any case but Typhoons seem to be one of those units you take after every other slot is full and you still need more fire support.

The typhoon is certainly not very attractive to wolf players, especially when we have our Heavy slots clogged up with ML Fangs, and that they can get Las razorback too, as if that array of AT weaponry weren't enough.

you have never seen what 3 Typhoons can do to a mob of Orks, even when protected by KFF.

Or what 2 squadrons of 2 do to a poor powerblob guard army .., he was stubborn oh boy. I've never actually used the frags much until my last tourney, I generaly use the to kill off space marines 4krak 6hb fire tends to makem drop

Grey Templar wrote:you have never seen what 3 Typhoons can do to a mob of Orks, even when protected by KFF.

I actually, have seen this alot. Its not as impressive as what 4 HB/HB speeders can do =/.

Str 4 blasts are incredibly underwhelming. esp when the ork player exerts even minimal effort to keep formation loose. Most of the time you only hit 3, 4 if you get lucky. And then, theres the to wound phase....only half of your shots wound. Regardless tho, typhoons are good against ork hordes because of their Sv of 6.

A typhoon kills 4 boyz without cover. 1-2 when they are.
An HB/HB speeder kills 3 boyz without cover. 1-2 when they are.

basically both are roughly the same at killing boyz, but the HB/HB speeder costs 30 points less.

Yuber wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:you have never seen what 3 Typhoons can do to a mob of Orks, even when protected by KFF.

I actually, have seen this alot. Its not as impressive as what 4 HB/HB speeders can do =/.

Str 4 blasts are incredibly underwhelming. esp when the ork player exerts even minimal effort to keep formation loose. Most of the time you only hit 3, 4 if you get lucky. And then, theres the to wound phase....only half of your shots wound. Regardless tho, typhoons are good against ork hordes because of their Sv of 6.

A typhoon kills 4 boyz without cover. 1-2 when they are.
An HB/HB speeder kills 3 boyz without cover. 1-2 when they are.

basically both are roughly the same at killing boyz, but the HB/HB speeder costs 30 points less.

All call this some what related:
I swapped out my scatter lasers on my war walkers for eldar missile launchers. I found that the S4 blast that always hit somewhere was much, much better than 4 S6 shots (at BS3, averaging 2 hits).
When I fought IG, Orks, and Nids (75% of my games), the S4 blast did more damage than the S6 shooting. 6 S4 blasts produced more kills than 24 S6 shots.

Heavy bolters average the same number of hits, but are only S5.

I'd gladly upgrade from 3 S5 to effectively 2 missile launchers for 30 points.

Their is also something to be said for typhoons as a better standoff weapon as well. That extra 12" of range can be pretty nice. I got nice missile flank shots late in the game after peppering with plasma; hit a unit two or three times, and you're opponent may forget you are also packing krak.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Yuber wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:you have never seen what 3 Typhoons can do to a mob of Orks, even when protected by KFF.

I actually, have seen this alot. Its not as impressive as what 4 HB/HB speeders can do =/.

Str 4 blasts are incredibly underwhelming. esp when the ork player exerts even minimal effort to keep formation loose. Most of the time you only hit 3, 4 if you get lucky. And then, theres the to wound phase....only half of your shots wound. Regardless tho, typhoons are good against ork hordes because of their Sv of 6.

A typhoon kills 4 boyz without cover. 1-2 when they are.
An HB/HB speeder kills 3 boyz without cover. 1-2 when they are.

basically both are roughly the same at killing boyz, but the HB/HB speeder costs 30 points less.

All call this some what related:
I swapped out my scatter lasers on my war walkers for eldar missile launchers. I found that the S4 blast that always hit somewhere was much, much better than 4 S6 shots (at BS3, averaging 2 hits).
When I fought IG, Orks, and Nids (75% of my games), the S4 blast did more damage than the S6 shooting. 6 S4 blasts produced more kills than 24 S6 shots.

Heavy bolters average the same number of hits, but are only S5.

I'd gladly upgrade from 3 S5 to effectively 2 missile launchers for 30 points.

Their is also something to be said for typhoons as a better standoff weapon as well. That extra 12" of range can be pretty nice. I got nice missile flank shots late in the game after peppering with plasma; hit a unit two or three times, and you're opponent may forget you are also packing krak.

-Matt

You seem to forget that marines are BS4 not 3. They are put in a disadvantage when using blast weapons.

But that is not what is ultimately being argued. Typhoons get shot. HB/HB speeders dont. That's all there is to it.

So just to be clear, your argument as to why they are good is that they don't get shot at.

I'm going to go ahead and say that if the HB/HB was truly a threat, it would be shot at. If its a bigger threat than your other units, and your opponent doesn't shoot at it, that doesn't make the unit good. That makes your opponent bad.

HB/HB speeders are okay, but the real problem is that its easier to get that elsewhere. For 60 points you can get one, or for 85 points you can get the two heavy bolters plus and autocannon on a predator which is far more durable, but less mobile. I'm going to go ahead and vote that the predator is the better buy.

Typhoons are good because they are cheap mobile missile launchers with a heavy bolter thrown in for good measure.

Heavy bolters are easy to get. I maintain that dakka preds and razorbacks are better ways of getting them, if you want them at all.

Dracos wrote:So just to be clear, your argument as to why they are good is that they don't get shot at.

I'm going to go ahead and say that if the HB/HB was truly a threat, it would be shot at. If its a bigger threat than your other units, and your opponent doesn't shoot at it, that doesn't make the unit good. That makes your opponent bad.

HB/HB speeders are okay, but the real problem is that its easier to get that elsewhere. For 60 points you can get one, or for 85 points you can get the two heavy bolters plus and autocannon on a predator which is far more durable, but less mobile. I'm going to go ahead and vote that the predator is the better buy.

Typhoons are good because they are cheap mobile missile launchers with a heavy bolter thrown in for good measure.

Heavy bolters are easy to get. I maintain that dakka preds and razorbacks are better ways of getting them, if you want them at all.

For 60 points you get 2 HBs, not one.

Regarding threat analysis, the HB/HB speeders are only relevant when you have lots of AV targets on the board.

Seemingly because HB speeders operate 36" away from the enemy, long range weapons must be put to bear against them - most of which are AT weapons that opponent prefer to use against AV targets that are a bigger threat such as las/plas razorbacks, predators, dreads or land speeder typhoons them selves.

Regarding the dakka pred, while it is invariably correct that it performs better than HB speeders in its intended role, most list wouldn't have that luxury of using a Heavy Support slot for light anti infantry work. Most of the time its auto las preds, vindicators or devastators.

TL;DR: HB speeders aren't supposed to be in the same army as Dakka preds.

If I may throw in my two cents here.. Lots of people are talking about how often MM speeders get their points back, that one blast from their gun on side armour will get them all of their points back, and a smoking crater where their opponent's beloved (insert tank here)_______ used to be.


however, the fact of the matter is that on average, it will take just barely less than 3 shots to take out a vehicle with armor 10! if you go up to armor 14 you need barely less than 5 shots. I may be missing something, but it seems that the logic for MM/HF speeders is this.

-MM/HF gives them the ability to do damage to multiple unit types.

-however, putting them close to the enemy means that they will realistically only have a turn or two to survive.

- That said, they will be able to pop a tank and get their points back easily.

- After they blow up the tank, any points they get will just be extra bonuses.



If this is in fact true, then shouldn't the goal be to destroy whichever tank target you have chosen? With a squadron of 3 MM/HF speeders, you're only really "guaranteed" to kill a tank if you can hit its 10 AV facing... If not, then the odds start stacking themselves against you. Admittedly, if you have Vulkan, then you raise your killing ability with MMs by 22%(multiplied by the rest of the variables) across the board (I think). But even still, if your goal is to destroy that tank that could throw a wrench in your army's plan, wouldn't it be better to take a dual MM squad?

Lord PoPo wrote:


however, the fact of the matter is that on average, it will take just barely less than 3 shots to take out a vehicle with armor 10! if you go up to armor 14 you need barely less than 5 shots. I may be missing something, but it seems that the logic for MM/HF speeders is this.

Hmmm, I think you're missing how probability works.

You never "need" 5 shots of MM to kill a vehicle. One shot will do it.

Also 3 shots won't "guarantee" anything. They could all whiff.

All you can do is increase your chances by taking multiples of units. Personally, I find 2-4 MM/HF speeders are enough to do what I need them to do.

Also I personally believe the idea of "making your points back" is a total fallacy. If I have to sacrifice my 70-point speeder to take out a 50-point attack bike that would have been able to contest the winning objective in the last turn, then my speeder won me the game whether it made its points back or not.

Vulkan lists aside - my preference is the HB or HB/HB speeder. Typhoons are good but the cost - for me - is the issue. I can get my AT elsewhere for cheaper or more survivable. Add Vulkan and it is just in your face with TL fire.

MM/HF - must get within 8"-12" to truly use either weapon effectively. AV 10 doesn't like that too much.

Typhoon - style wise it works but it is a stand-off weapon again due to AV 10 for the points I have to pay for it, I don't ever want to get close with it. So it will hover on the extremities of the battlefield. A low objective contest threat.

HB/AssCan - Good but for the same cost I can field a Typhoon. Sorry you lose.

HB or HB/HB - fairly cheap anti-personnel weapon. 48" effective range means I don't have to close to enemy Special Weapons ranges. S5 weapons means it is only a mediocre AT weapons platform. Its low threat level means its AV10 is not going to get tested like a typhoon or MM variant. Its low cost means I can provide more targets to my opponent. For me this is a good option with a low AV but high target count army. For 1850 -
I can probably field 3 dakka preds, 4-5 razorbacks and 6 hb speeders. The hope is to saturate opponents with a need for S6+ weapons and thus the 6 speeders just drop to the bottom of his targeting priority.

Flavius Infernus wrote:


Hmmm, I think you're missing how probability works. You never "need" 5 shots of MM to kill a vehicle. One shot will do it. Also 3 shots won't "guarantee" anything. They could all whiff.
All you can do is increase your chances by taking multiples of units. Personally, I find 2-4 MM/HF speeders are enough to do what I need them to do.

Believe it or not I do understand that when playing a dice game you can get lucky . However, planning for luck just doesn't seem like the best of strategies. Planning for averages gives you a pretty hefty safety margin imho

Flavius Infernus wrote:

Also I personally believe the idea of "making your points back" is a total fallacy. If I have to sacrifice my 70-point speeder to take out a 50-point attack bike that would have been able to contest the winning objective in the last turn, then my speeder won me the game whether it made its points back or not.

QFT but people have been arguing that the MM/HF speeder can make its points back, which I just don't see as being a likelyhood. Destroying a unit that could really mess you up however is what I think the speeder would excel at. I just don't see the heavy flamer contributing to this factor.

The best part about the Typhoon speeder is the combination of its range and speed. It might only have 2 missile shots for a steep 40pts, but its all about how you place those missiles.

A unit of 4 long fangs is going to be shooting at front armor all day long(against a smart player), but typhoons can quickly move up and skirt the board edges getting side armor shots, plus catching infantry out of cover and decimating them.

I run 3 solo, or 2x2 and the results are incredible. They are without a doubt my true killers in my list. My last game I played they killed no less then 6 tanks (3 pred chassis and 3 rhino) plus killing a squad of 5 marines off an objective.

If you saturate your list with high threat targets like vindicators ect, then the typhoons usually go unscathed (unless your opponent has special weapons like a hydra or something).

The HB/HB speeder is just a cheap dakka vehicle, that is heavily outclassed by the dakka predator IMO (more shots and front armor 13).

Lord PoPo wrote:
QFT but people have been arguing that the MM/HF speeder can make its points back, which I just don't see as being a likelyhood. Destroying a unit that could really mess you up however is what I think the speeder would excel at. I just don't see the heavy flamer contributing to this factor.

this is why i don't like MM/HF speeders(and suicide Melta in general). They have a chance of killing something and then certaintly dying.

MMs have a 2/3 chance of hitting. a .8888 chance if you have Vulkan. you then need a roll of 5+ on 2d6 to penetrate AV14. if you do penetrate you then only have a 50% chance of killing the tank.

i was recently at a tournament and, over the course of 3 games(Plague marine spam, Mixed guard, and Vulkan marines) my LR must have been shot with Melta weapons over 14 times. the total tally over 3 games was 3 destroyed lascannons and an immobilized result. yeah, i was lucky, but it does show that Melta can fail, even when it penetrates.

a 2/3 chance to hit, a 8/10 chance to Penetrate(might be lower), and a 50% chance to kill just gives a Melta weapon in melta range a 26% chance of killing a Landraider.

the Typhoon just fits my playstyle better and is more useful against Chimera/Rhino spam as it can stand off and kill those tanks.

i do have Melta in my list. in the form of a Bike squad with 2 Melta guns and a MM attack bike, but they are ONLY for presicion strikes and not for suicidal glory rides.

Grey Templar wrote:i do have Melta in my list. in the form of a Bike squad with 2 Melta guns and a MM attack bike, but they are ONLY for presicion strikes and not for suicidal glory rides.

What's the difference?

i wait for the target to be vulnarable and a way my bikes could potentially survive.

the Bikes are also more likely to Kill what they shoot as they have more shots(at a higher cost naturally)



they also don't go in unsupported. i would have my assault terminators close by for example.


with a Suicide melta you would pick a target before you deploy and just head for it no matter what.

with my guys they wait for a target of opprotunity. they are a reactive force rather then the tip of my proverbial spear.

Grey Templar, I feel like you're setting up a false dichotomy here. Either a unit kills something, or it's totally useless, with no Grey area (as it were) between the two. Just the threat of a 50% kill on his deathstar unit has an impact on my opponent's gameplay decisions, and there's a whole long range of possible useful things a speeder might do that don't require it to kill anything--things that can have an important effect on the ultimate outcome of the game.

Also, I'm resisting the old speeder-vs-bike debate because it's been rehashed so many times elsewhere, but I do want to point out that a speeder can also lurk & pounce. Again, it's not an artificial choice between rushing in full speed on a suicide run and doing nothing.

i was just saying i don't like speeders as Melta platforms, not for shooty marines. i much prefer bikes for a similer role and belive that Speeders are best as a long range fire support unit.


Melta speeders DO work, just not with my play style and my expierience has show that Suicide Meltas don't work as good as they are often touted. i just hate there being a sizable chance of the Melta speeder totally failing and then dying for no gain. i solve that problem by using Typhoons which have equally significant, although a different type, of fire power and a greater chance of survival, and killing multiple targets, over the course of the game.


if i ever started a Vulkan based marine army i would probably avoid MM/HF speeders anyway because they arn't fluffy for Salamanders to use. i would probably spam Bikes with Melta weapons and have tons of flamers else where.

Grey Templar wrote:i was just saying i don't like speeders as Melta platforms, not for shooty marines. i much prefer bikes for a similer role and belive that Speeders are best as a long range fire support unit.


Melta speeders DO work, just not with my play style and my expierience has show that Suicide Meltas don't work as good as they are often touted. i just hate there being a sizable chance of the Melta speeder totally failing and then dying for no gain. i solve that problem by using Typhoons which have equally significant, although a different type, of fire power and a greater chance of survival, and killing multiple targets, over the course of the game.


if i ever started a Vulkan based marine army i would probably avoid MM/HF speeders anyway because they arn't fluffy for Salamanders to use. i would probably spam Bikes with Melta weapons and have tons of flamers else where.

I guess the problem I have with this logic is that I fail to see, under your definition of suicide unit, how anything with a Meltagun or Multi-melta is anything but a suicide unit.

If a unit is within 2d6 Melta range, it's either a Marine or bike within 6", or a vehicle or Attack Bike within 12". In either case, you're within easy striking distance of whatever comes out of the vehicle you popped.

If you're waiting to take out that LRC with Assault Termies inside until it's within the 12" range of your Attack Bike in your bike squad, then the Land Raider has already done its job, and the Termies are going to charge you soon.

Whereas, with the Speeder, you can Flat Out on turn 1, and use turn 2 as your opportunity to take out a Land Raider before the contents are capable of threatening your forces. Same general rule applies with Orks and Battlewagons.

In many cases, waiting until a vehicle is within Melta range is suicide for your army. So why not transfer the risk to a Speeder squadron instead?

i suppose it doesn't make sense when i said it like that.

it makes much more sense in my mind



one thing i don't like is the Speeders fragility at such close range. i am ok with it at distances of 36"+, but at point blank range it's too risky.

Grey Templar wrote:i suppose it doesn't make sense when i said it like that.

it makes much more sense in my mind



one thing i don't like is the Speeders fragility at such close range. i am ok with it at distances of 36"+, but at point blank range it's too risky.

If you play them with the knowledge that they are going to die turn 2 however, would you say that they are worth it as a way to stop that nasty av 14 transport from disgorging hordes of terminators in your face?

As a new player I was trying to decide a good squad build for FA and this has been very helpful. As someone who is building an IF army I can see the use of the typhoon as the missiles have good range and can be swapped for both anti-mech and anti-infantry missiles.

However this bike V speeder conversation is quite interesting. I have a bike done with the twin linked bolter and then an I've already started an attack bike with multi-melta, I figured to buy the bike squad in the future, if not just another single bike and use that as my FA for a short time.

IMHO, I find Land Speeders to be very handy and useful. They are very much worth their points, and when used correctly, are devastating to play against.

As for my weapon loadout options, contrary to how others think, I actually like the MM x 2 combo a lot. Here is my logic:

1. I like playing Vulkan He'stan, and TL Melta's and Flamers are nothing to laugh at!

2. In the lists I run Land Speeders, I make them specialize in either Anti-Tank or Anti-Infantry. For the Anti-Tank Speeder, the MM x 2 combo is my best option. For Anti-Infantry, I use the TML/HB option. C:SM has enough units that are versatile enough to compensate for many things, so my logic is "why not have a unit that specializes at least in one thing?"

3. On the topic of range, MM don't need to be within 12" to pop many vehicles. Against Rhinos, Razorbacks, and anything that has an AV of 12 or less, MM's are very good at disabling. Now against Land Raiders, Predators, and other vehicles with AV greater than 12, here is where a different strategy applies. Against Land Raiders, Vindicators, and other vehicles that must/need/should be moving towards you early to be effective, the likelihood of the Land Speeder being with 12" on the following turn are considerably higher, probably even with only a 6" move. And if my opponent isn't moving his Land Raider towards me first turn, then it only means he's keeping whatever unit inside out of combat, or at the very least delaying it. Predators, and other vehicles that shoot at long range are the biggest problem for me. In this case, having to move Flat Out on a prior turn would probably be the necessary strategy, and then hoping it survives long enough for me to take my shots with it. Not the most sound strategy, but if my opponent is Rhino/Razorback/Land Raider-less by Turn 2 or 3, I'll be a happy camper.

Also, there is a greater likelihood that you will face more Rhinos/Razorbacks than Land Raiders, so the options of targets with Speeders at long range usually aren't very lacking. Again, not a proven fact, but just an objective observation of the games I've played. Very rarely will you come across a list with more than 2 Land Raiders, but facing against 3-4 (or maybe more) Rhinos isn't at all uncommon.

Basically, I prioritize my Land Speeders shooting duties. First and foremost (for me, at least), I aim for Rhinos and Razorbacks with infantry inside. With 2 MM shots and being out of 12" range, I still have a 66% chance of at least 1 shot Penetrating. Combine the TL ability from Vulkan, and my chances increase to 88%. So with 3 Land Speeders (not in a squadron), I'm looking at the strong possibility of taking out 3 Dedicated Transports on my first turn. In objective games, this will indefinitely slow my opponent down. In KP games, it's almost a guaranteed 3 KP's on first turn.

Again, this is just my experience with using this combination, so YMMV as well. I've only played the HF/MM combination once, and while it did work well for me, I didn't see any daunting differences, due to the way it worked with the rest of my list.

On comparing it against Attack Bikes
I agree that the Speeder is better than the Attack Bike. It also costs more points, making their differences more distinct.

Which sort of begs the question, "So why are we comparing them to each other again....?"

To be fair to the "Attack Bike" (Yes, I know how corny that sounds ), I think it's unfair to compare something so different in capabilities to it. Essentially, I think we're comparing apples to oranges. Aside from them both being Fast Attack choices, they don't share many similarities at all.

Land Speeders cost more points because they get better weapon options, have better maneuverability, and better Special Rules (Deep Strike). They are hands down the better unit.

Personally, I'd rather take a full Bike Squad with an Attack Bike attachment, but since our OP has asked that we strictly leave Bike Squads out of this thread, I will refrain from commenting further.

On the topic of Squadrons:
I'm not a fan of using them in Squadrons for the simple reason that they must all dedicate their fire power to a single unit. Unless I'm fighting against an all/mostly Infantry army, I avoid using them in Squadrons. 2 TL MM's I find are adequate for taking out vehicles at long range, and at close range, if I'm firing more than 2 MM shots into a single unit, it's only because I have no other vehicle to shoot at.

Essentially, Squadrons are good depending on your Weapon Loadout.

Hope that was insightful for some of you to read!

Speeders are perfect because of the reason you explained. Their loadout is perfect. HF with MM is perfect combo against any army.

Grey Templar wrote:i suppose it doesn't make sense when i said it like that.

it makes much more sense in my mind



one thing i don't like is the Speeders fragility at such close range. i am ok with it at distances of 36"+, but at point blank range it's too risky.

And bikes aren't fragile? Both can die to a single missile (attack bike too), but the bikes die on a 2+ to wound, where the speeders need a 3+ then a 5+ to die.

They both are expected to die. Honestly, i expect typhoons to die if the opponent has any long range anti tank as target priority is often based on how threatening something is then how easy to kill. A speeder at long range with 2 ML shots is as dangerous and certainly easier to kill with a lascannon than a pred (dakka or autolas) or devastator squad. Heck, most guard armies have some units that can lob a couple of auto cannon shots at it, and still have enough firepower to shoot up the tacticals coming in (not to mention melta vet whatever deathstar you run at them).

I run HF/MM speeders since they are amazing at deepstriking against guard, a common opponent these days. Typhoons, while decent against guard, don't have that X factor that forces the player to deploy or play differently. Plus they have the range to match it most of the time. Against DE and other marines I would go with typhoons, but I don't list tailor, and I often need the HF more often than I would hope to expect.