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Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:The Orks wern't always gene coded hmm? Page 7 of the Ork codex? ok let's look at page 7 of the Ork codex.

"They speak of a legendary caste of greenskins who created the Orks of today as a warrior race to protect their own."

"The their Ork and Gretchin servants were anything but intellectual, they had a strong survival instinct and an innate understanding of their own universe".

So page 7 of the Ork codex says that the Orks where created by another race (duh we all know that) and that they had an innate understanding of their universe. The fact that they still have that understand via their gene coding means that they have always had gene coding (they where created with it) and nothing on that page says anything about them "not always having it"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And if you're refering to this "Either way, the brainboyz took steps to preserve what they could of their knowledge be engineering it into the genetic structure of their slaves, thereby creating the ultimate survivor race".

This says nothing about the Brainboyz creating the Orks and then later deciding to add the gene coding. For all you know the Brainboyz could have known of their decline before they even made the Orks and so put the gene coding into the Orks when they first created them.

Reading the paragraph complete and in context would help.
Your nice idea of partially quoting isn't new.

So:

- The Old ones created space elfs ( eldar ) and space orks ( krork ) as minions.
- the krork were lead by "brainboyz" , who may have: degenerated to snotlings / deceased by a plague / killed in a (k)rork rebellion.
- the brainboyz are called a caste, not a race and IMHO orks never obey to non-greenskins soo... ( also see snotling theory )
- the brainboyz guided the greenskins ( called other castes, not other races ! ) across the stars and invented the tech.
- the brainboyz saved their knowledge through coding it into the orks ( see mekboyz, dokz ).

There is no reason to genecode from start when the brainboyz themselves are around. Usually nobody plans his own demise, saying orks were always this way
isn't what the C : orks states, isn't it?
The snotlings are hinted as 'degenerated brainboyz' several times in the codex. The orks did not rule the galaxy after the old ones left, since the Eldar took over.
Krork without brainboyz = too split to stand a chance against the elfs...

Nothing was said about "planning their own demise". What I said was that they knew they where going to fall prior to creating the Krork which beings as the Old Ones created the younger races as a last ditch effort to protect themselves from the Necrons means that the Old Ones (who where masters of the arcane and undoubtidly knew what was happeneing be it from simple logic or divination) knew they where near the end of their existance and so created the Orks with gene coding.

And if what I said is so out of context then you should have no problem providing a direct quote saying when it was exactly that the Orks where created with their gene coding. If not (which I doubt you can) I will quote the entire page because it does not say when it was done. Though logically given the greater fluff of the Old Ones it makes sense that it would have been done when the Orks where created hence their "innate understanding of the universe" and the fact that the Old Ones would be preparing for their downfall. All you have to go off of to say that they didn't have the gene coding when they where first created is that the words "gene coding" or some variation of which are only present at the end of the page. Hardly proof that they wern't created with it in the first place.

The old ones are not part of codex orks directly, like they are also not part of codex Eldar in an obvious way.
Their backstory mostly happens in codex necrons, surprisingly we don't get too much about krork and elfs but this dex focuses on necrons..

Still, codex orks is clear that orks had a different culture and hierarchy back in the days when they were called krork.

Do you really see a problem to differ the brainboyz from the old ones?
Orks are an artificial race ( eldar too ), the old ones had a lengthy engagement with the necrontyr and then the necron/C'tan combo.
The orks and elfs were made as "weapons", but the plans got awful when the empyrean turned out to be not as lifeless as the old ones seemed to expect
and the war was lost thanks to the enslavers. Orks did survive, but they did not rule.
Why?

As I said before:

- multiple reasons for the brainboyz end.
- none of the possible fates of the brainboyz is 'foreseeable' like you attempt to claim.
- knowing a inevitable future `? There are possible futures and thus an outcome is not pre-set. If it would be a 100% science thing, eldar wouldn't have fallen..
- a servant often is not to different from its master. ( brainboyz => ork 'castes' ). maybe have a look at robot designs?

Looking forward to see some of the pages 7,8,9,10 quoted.

And yet again nothing you said in anyway proves that the Orks didn't have genetic coding to begin with. It just tried to jump around what I have said and what common sense dictates given the greater fluff.

1hadhq wrote:Reading the paragraph complete and in context would help.
Your nice idea of partially quoting isn't new.

So:

- The Old ones created space elfs ( eldar ) and space orks ( krork ) as minions.
- the krork were lead by "brainboyz" , who may have: degenerated to snotlings / deceased by a plague / killed in a (k)rork rebellion.
- the brainboyz are called a caste, not a race and IMHO orks never obey to non-greenskins soo... ( also see snotling theory )
- the brainboyz guided the greenskins ( called other castes, not other races ! ) across the stars and invented the tech.
- the brainboyz saved their knowledge through coding it into the orks ( see mekboyz, dokz ).

There is no reason to genecode from start when the brainboyz themselves are around. Usually nobody plans his own demise, saying orks were always this way
isn't what the C : orks states, isn't it?
The snotlings are hinted as 'degenerated brainboyz' several times in the codex. The orks did not rule the galaxy after the old ones left, since the Eldar took over.
Krork without brainboyz = too split to stand a chance against the elfs...

No, Imbad is actually right with this one.
Firstly, the genecoded knowledge was almost certainly implanted by the Old Ones, as they created the Orks as a race. Your reference to the fact that orks do not obey non-greenskins is indeed correct, but think about it like this: Orks don't obey people that don't have green skin. We are never given a detailed description of what the Old Ones looked like, or indeed any description at all. For all we know, they looked to orks like greenskins, and therefore were obeyed. Hell, even if they didn't resemble their creations, the Old Ones had the power of creation at their fingertips. Who's to say they couldn't make themselves resemble their charges? Your logic, though solid, does not take into account these facts. The whole Caste not Race argument is kinda nonsensical, as whoever these Brainboyz actually were is irrelevant given that the orks trusted them for a time. I'll go into more detail below as to why the caste thing is kinda irrelevant.
In short, there is a much greater chance of the "Brainboyz" being the Old Ones than them being some extinct form of Orkoid. Furthermore, the whole "they were smaller than us" argument used by the ork fluff does not disprove my theory; rather, it works just fine whether you include this or not, as the source for this info is written from an orkish point of view. To orks, smaller is inferior, and if these Brainboyz became extinct, to an ork it makes sense that they were diminutive; if they weren't they could have defended themselves and thus survived. Thus over time, the ork legends have sculpted these mini-greenskins which were dead clever and the lot, because to an ork it would make sense that the smaller race of greenskins (greenskins because, as you rightly point out, orks would never admit to following a non-greenskin at any time, so their legends may not even be accurate in this respect) died out whilst the big strong orks survived. Thus using the source at face value is probably not the best idea, given that the legends have probably warped about the Brainboyz in the way I have stated above.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:And yet again nothing you said in anyway proves that the Orks didn't have genetic coding to begin with. It just tried to jump around what I have said and what common sense dictates given the greater fluff.

So I need to prove the status of orks nearly 60.000.000 years ago?
Somehow time canges the story ( thus agreed with Gorskar, we may not get the 'true' picture from that time period ).

Call it jumping as much as you please, but common sense would dictate that:
- action A performed to escape fate B when aware of said fate B may not been planned at birth at date C .

IMO, to alter something to spare your subordinates isn't happening before you know your own fate.
Genetic coding to begin with is obvious as an artificial created race, but the set of codes could be altered again at a later date, which is my point.
Look at it as a failsafe switch. Orks could not threathen as much as they can if they had to go through the whole learning process each time they
'grow' out of a bunch of spores on a planet. Additionally, a group of smaller creatures may want to have some tools to grant them power, since
orks accept only the mightiest and might can stem from knowledge too.

I think its possible to assume the orks were 'coded' once, but somehow it would be pointless to mention the brain boyz altering anything when their
time as a factor in this galaxy ended. I doubt GW did such useless sequences in an already short story of the orks past.

You do see where I'm coming from though, right?

Also to think that a race like the Old Ones woulden't able to tell when their worlds where being over run, their forces destroyed and the end was near is foolish. They where the masters of the universe, they created most of the life that now exists. They could travel instantly across vast distances and mold matter to their will.

Thinking they woulden't be able to recognise their own downfall when it was inevitable and thinking they woulden't have created races as a last ditch effort (as the fluff says) and giving those races what they need to survive when they where created is thinking wrong.

You say the Orks wern't gene coded at the begining. Prove it, provide a cannon quote that says so because right now absolutly nothing suggests that the Orks wern't originally created (especially given the phrase "innate understanding of their universe") with gene coding.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:Also to think that a race like the Old Ones woulden't able to tell when their worlds where being over run, their forces destroyed and the end was near is foolish. They where the masters of the universe, they created most of the life that now exists. They could travel instantly across vast distances and mold matter to their will.

Thinking they woulden't be able to recognise their own downfall when it was inevitable and thinking they woulden't have created races as a last ditch effort (as the fluff says) and giving those races what they need to survive when they where created is thinking wrong.

You say the Orks wern't gene coded at the begining. Prove it, provide a cannon quote that says so because right now absolutly nothing suggests that the Orks wern't originally created (especially given the phrase "innate understanding of their universe") with gene coding.

and that's part of the problem, fluff aslo stats that the Orks have did't write about their traditions or histories, that things are oral subject, from mouth onf an Ork to ears ofn another one... for this reason exists all this "voids" in Orks past...

All we know about the Krork is that they were a 'hardy' and 'green-skinned' race. For most of the background in Codex Necrons the Old Ones are said to have nurtured various warrior races but does say that the Krork and Jokaero were 'newer creations', intended to defend the last bastions of the Old Ones. It is unclear how many races the Old Ones created from scratch, how many were simply aided by them and how many were modified to become more psychic.

As to how close Orks are to the Krork is not known. Beyond describing them as 'hardy' and 'green-skinned' nothing more is mentioned about the Krork and for all we know they could have looked like and acted like anything. It is impossible to say with certainty how advanced they were culturally and socially and how that reflected on their military style if they had any at all. For all we know the Krork were barely sentient and simply bred quickly enough to swamp the Necrons with sheer numbers or let loose with devastating psychic attacks before perishing when they Necrons attacked the worlds of the Old Ones.


As to the history of the Orks we know that the Brainboyz were not the Old Ones. The Brainboyz are snotlings; 'Snotlings are the remnants of a lost race of Orkoids called Brainboyz, who mutated into an intelligent race by feeding on mind-enhancing fungi.' Waaargh The Orks! pg 34

The Brainboyz created the Orks and Gretchin as slave races but when the Orks also ate the mind-enhancing fungi they came to realise there was no need for them to be ordered around by such diminutuve creatures as the Brainboyz and they rebelled. Unlike the Brainboyz all subsequent generations of Orks maintained their enhanced intelligence and so once all the mind-enhancing fungi was gone the Brainboyz were a doomed race who encoded much of their advanced technology into the Orks so that it would be preserved.

At some point after this the Blood Axes dominated Ork society because they were so powerful. When the rest of Ork-kind could no-longer tolerate the friendly relationships the Blood Axes had with alien races especially humans (indicating that the Blood Axes dominated Ork society until quite recently) they rebelled, with the Blood Axe clan being almost wiped out in a war known as Da Big Party.

Orks then have not always been gene-coded with information, this happened only after they rebelled against the Brainboyz and we do not know for how long the Brainboyz ruled Ork-kind although it seems to have been for a considerable amount of time. After the decline of the Brainboyz we also do not know when the Blood Axes rose to prominence but, again, it would seem to have been for a long time. In that case, current Ork society is something that has existed only for around thirty-thousand years and it would seem that Ork society was a much more advanced society when the Blood Axes were in control. How that relates to the Krork is impossible to say as we simply do not know.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:You do see where I'm coming from though, right?

I do.

But someone is lost and I still try to guide him back .
V V V V V V V V

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:* insists that orks didn't change and were always like today.*

Can't be bothered to accept the lack of background to quote stops me? Should I make stuff up?

1) no written (kr)orks-history = storys get altered all the time when told from generation to generation.
2) Events that happened Aeons ago = really ask for a date?
( mind you 40k uses Imperial dates, millions of years before humanity even existed leads to a screwed format. So M40 = 40.000 , 60.000.000 = ? )
3) I never said the old ones were not aware of the obvious, but I am unwilling to see your idea of the old ones knowing of their doom and the exact date of it as
viable, like you said yourself they would probably believe in their power to overcome the problem and maybe act rather late.
4) codex necrons page 4: Eldar know of the events, orks don't care for the past. So we just need to look it up at the black library....
but maybe those elfs won't let us?



@ Gogsnik: well said.

Edited: need too much time to create a post, so posts go unseen and we can't have that.

4M2A wrote:
Orks weren't meant to be an army by themselves. The old ones created them to work alongside their other warrior races. The eldar were for precise missions where they needed to reach a specific objective and the orks were just meant to be used when the old ones needed to crush a target.

Is it just me, or does that sound like the IoM. The Spacemarines are used for precise missions, and the guard can be likened to the orks in your description... You know, just blowing up junk. I love the imperium.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:
No, Imbad is actually right with this one.
Firstly, the genecoded knowledge was almost certainly implanted by the Old Ones, as they created the Orks as a race. Your reference to the fact that orks do not obey non-greenskins is indeed correct, but think about it like this: Orks don't obey people that don't have green skin. We are never given a detailed description of what the Old Ones looked like, or indeed any description at all.

Slann have Green Skin, so yeah Orks would of followed them.

And really plant based life without gene memory, it's been there since the begaining. Its how plants work.

All signs point that the Krorks where not super advanced but where more organised and prepared. The fact that younfer orks act more like a modern military shows that it was genecoded into them, but wasnt fostered by the new leaders as it would have been by the Krorks. The coding the orks already have would make them a wonderfully profeicent fighting force with little need to train or prepare them. As far as a commander would be concerened they are the perfect fighting force. They already know how to fight and many other tactics, they reproduce quickly, are very adaptably and love to fight. This means that the Old Ones could drop them into a battle zone with little oversight and expect them to generally preform well. Meanwhile the Eldar are used for surgical strikes against key targets. The Old Ones would only have to train the first generation or so, then they would pass it one since they would be the biggest and strongest, but witht the Old Ones gone, adn no longer enforcing these ideas they have degraded a lot. The Blood Axes may have simply been able to hold onto the ideas longer and it has become a kind of culture, much like technology in the Imperium. So the Krorks would have been more tactical and organized, and maybe even had some kind of standard weapons to start with but would have modifed and scavanged new stuff along the way, slowly leaving behind the Old Ones plans until they had totally forgotten them.

Well, 1hadhq, it seems I owe you an apology. I didn't realise that Waaagh! The Orks had better information on this, or you'd be seeing a radically different argument from me.
Still, no harm done, eh?

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Well, 1hadhq, it seems I owe you an apology. I didn't realise that Waaagh! The Orks had better information on this, or you'd be seeing a radically different argument from me.
Still, no harm done, eh?

No harm.

Had to argue without a lot of the background of Orks, as I am not owning a Library of all the fluff. And IIRC, isn't always true..
( I am, no expert when its about orks.)

Thanks to Gogsnik , additional info comes handy.

Tactical Nuclear Panda wrote:All signs point that the Krorks where not super advanced but where more organised and prepared.

So the Krorks would have been more tactical and organized, and maybe even had some kind of standard weapons to start with but would have modifed and scavanged new stuff along the way, slowly leaving behind the Old Ones plans until they had totally forgotten them.

What exactly is the evidence you have for any of these opinions about the Krork? We know almost nothing about the Krork other than they were hardy and had green skin. Based on that very limited information there can be no real inferences made about what the Krork were like militarily or culturally. The only thing we can really say, or more realistically gues at, is that since the Old Ones were vanquished (apart from maybe one of them) by the C'tan that the Krork (and the Jokaero too for that matter) didn't really put up such a great defence of those final bastions.

Thanks to Gogsnik , additional info comes handy.

No problem.

It's a bit ironic really that Orks are one of, if not the most, detailed races in the 40K universe and yet most people don't even know about it. I don't why Games Workshop don't have huge background tomes from the various races but they shuold. Hell, if they put up copeis of all the published background on-line and just cut out the rules it would be an excellent resource for gamers but you'd still need to buy your army's Codex to use it on the tabletop.

Gogsnik wrote:
It's a bit ironic really that Orks are one of, if not the most, detailed races in the 40K universe and yet most people don't even know about it. I don't why Games Workshop don't have huge background tomes from the various races but they shuold. Hell, if they put up copeis of all the published background on-line and just cut out the rules it would be an excellent resource for gamers but you'd still need to buy your army's Codex to use it on the tabletop.

Not to mention that, well handed, their background can make very funny action/comedy novels.... i have read some comics of them...so... why not?

Indeed, there is no reason not to have a novel or even better, a series of novels, written from an Ork point of view. At least it would be something other than Imperium versus Chaos.

an ork Vs Chaos from Ork point of view can be freakin' funny