Nice guide to American big-pharma.

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**Peter Wiggin**

Frazzled wrote:
And you're qualified to make this statement in any way, shape, or form how?

Personal opinion and 14 months working in direct client care in a crisis residential facility. Dealt with the most damaged demographics of culture out here, and it was very sad how many of them were totally and completely addicted to painkillers and/or benzo's. To the degree that we were unable to refer out 40+% of our clients to effective aftercare due to policy in place by organizations like Salvation Army of "NO DRUGS ALLOW"" (including doctor perscribed). Also Kaiser Permanente will not allow ANYONE to take part in their drug treatment program if they are not 100% clean. Hell, they will throw you OUT of the program if you relapse.

Not a research fellow for Genentech, but I've seen my share of the wreckage caused by frivolous use of "medically approved" drugs.

Wut, you never ate a Vicodin for fun?

Comment on Ankylosing Spondylitis and my qualification is that due to the rarity of diagnosis (esp in females) and the fact that my whole family has educated themselves on the genetic disorder so that we can help my sister and father deal with the pain if it becomes too unmanageable. I'd personally reccomend methadone as a chronic pain killer, but people have stigmatized it due to its efficacy in treatment of heroin addiction. FYI the opiate pain blocking effect of methadone lasts 72 hours, and its DIRT CHEAP to produce. TY Nazi scientists for your synthetic morphine invention!

P.S. derp derp derp

**Frazzled**

So you don't have expertise on pharmaceuticals needed for healthcare. Gotcha.
EDIT: I'm not saying there is waste, fraud, abuse, and greed. Its a human enterprise, therefor that is rampantly inherent.

**Peter Wiggin**

Frazzled wrote:So you don't have expertise on pharmaceuticals needed for healthcare. Gotcha.

More than most do actually. I'm quite familiar with the manipulation of US patent laws as well as first line treatments with highly addictive drugs by the medial community. Its all about the degree of action said drug has on the mesolimbic pathway pathway.

What is your qualification for attempted Strawman?

**Ahtman**

Peter Wiggin wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
And you're qualified to make this statement in any way, shape, or form how?

Personal opinion

Well that is how medical research usually works.

**Peter Wiggin**

Ahtman wrote:
Peter Wiggin wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
And you're qualified to make this statement in any way, shape, or form how?

Personal opinion

Well that is how medical research usually works.

quote without rest of statement has no context, but CLEVER USE OF QUOTES!!!!!!!

Its a favorite trick of mine as well. Discredit opponent by using out of context quote of own words.

**halonachos**

Peter Wiggin wrote:
Frazzled wrote:So you don't have expertise on pharmaceuticals needed for healthcare. Gotcha.

More than most do actually. I'm quite familiar with the manipulation of US patent laws as well as first line treatments with highly addictive drugs by the medial community. Its all about the degree of action said drug has on the mesolimbic pathway pathway.

What is your qualification for attempted Strawman?

Pshaw, I have a Stedman's Medical Dictionary and a Grey's Anatomy so I know way more than you or any doctor does.

**Ahtman**

halonachos wrote:
Peter Wiggin wrote:
Frazzled wrote:So you don't have expertise on pharmaceuticals needed for healthcare. Gotcha.

More than most do actually. I'm quite familiar with the manipulation of US patent laws as well as first line treatments with highly addictive drugs by the medial community. Its all about the degree of action said drug has on the mesolimbic pathway pathway.

What is your qualification for attempted Strawman?

Pshaw, I have a Stedman's Medical Dictionary and a Grey's Anatomy so I know way more than you or any doctor does.

Damn you and your so called 'books' and yer litterehsay.

**halonachos**

Ahtman wrote:
halonachos wrote:
Peter Wiggin wrote:
Frazzled wrote:So you don't have expertise on pharmaceuticals needed for healthcare. Gotcha.

More than most do actually. I'm quite familiar with the manipulation of US patent laws as well as first line treatments with highly addictive drugs by the medial community. Its all about the degree of action said drug has on the mesolimbic pathway pathway.

What is your qualification for attempted Strawman?

Pshaw, I have a Stedman's Medical Dictionary and a Grey's Anatomy so I know way more than you or any doctor does.

Damn you and your so called 'books' and yer litterehsay.

It's okay, there's pictures too.

**Frazzled**

Peter Wiggin wrote:
Frazzled wrote:So you don't have expertise on pharmaceuticals needed for healthcare. Gotcha.

More than most do actually. I'm quite familiar with the manipulation of US patent laws as well as first line treatments with highly addictive drugs by the medial community. Its all about the degree of action said drug has on the mesolimbic pathway pathway.

What is your qualification for attempted Strawman?

Its not a strawman. You've attempted to convict one of the largest industries in the world. It would behoove you to support those claims, else you'll be lumped in with the aluminum hat crowd.

Working with drug addicts is not inciative of anything except, well, drug addicts.

**Peter Wiggin**

halonachos wrote:
Peter Wiggin wrote:
Frazzled wrote:So you don't have expertise on pharmaceuticals needed for healthcare. Gotcha.

More than most do actually. I'm quite familiar with the manipulation of US patent laws as well as first line treatments with highly addictive drugs by the medial community. Its all about the degree of action said drug has on the mesolimbic pathway pathway.

What is your qualification for attempted Strawman?

Pshaw, I have a Stedman's Medical Dictionary and a Grey's Anatomy so I know way more than you or any doctor does.

Have DSM-IV too? I do, as well as a few courses in behavioral pharmacology. Like I said, not a research fellow but I know much more than the average person on the subject.

**Frazzled**

Ahtman wrote:
halonachos wrote:
Peter Wiggin wrote:
Frazzled wrote:So you don't have expertise on pharmaceuticals needed for healthcare. Gotcha.

More than most do actually. I'm quite familiar with the manipulation of US patent laws as well as first line treatments with highly addictive drugs by the medial community. Its all about the degree of action said drug has on the mesolimbic pathway pathway.

What is your qualification for attempted Strawman?

Pshaw, I have a Stedman's Medical Dictionary and a Grey's Anatomy so I know way more than you or any doctor does.

Damn you and your so called 'books' and yer litterehsay.

Indeed. We don't cotton to no readin round these parts. Get a rope.

**Peter Wiggin**

Frazzled wrote:
Peter Wiggin wrote:
Frazzled wrote:So you don't have expertise on pharmaceuticals needed for healthcare. Gotcha.

More than most do actually. I'm quite familiar with the manipulation of US patent laws as well as first line treatments with highly addictive drugs by the medial community. Its all about the degree of action said drug has on the mesolimbic pathway pathway.

What is your qualification for attempted Strawman?

Its not a strawman. You've attempted to convict one of the largest industries in the world. It would behoove you to support those claims, else you'll be lumped in with the aluminum hat crowd.

Working with drug addicts is not inciative of anything except, well, drug addicts.

NO offense Frazz, but you don't know what you are talking about in relation to the background needed in order to efficiently deal with crisis care. Its not about "drug addicts" its about the fact that drug addiction is overly represented as a co-occurring treatment concern with the homeless, teens, LGBTQ's, and the mentally ill. And as anyone knows, you cannot treat co-occurring behavioral concerns separately and expect (statistically) a long term positive out come for your patient/client.

I'm not going to go down the road of pointing out your fallacies, since it will just open me up to the same tactic. Also not gonna argue with yah about this one. I do know what I'm talking about, thats enough for me.

Crisis care and behavioral health (my area of training) =/= drug addiction treatment

**halonachos**

Peter Wiggin wrote:
halonachos wrote:
Peter Wiggin wrote:
Frazzled wrote:So you don't have expertise on pharmaceuticals needed for healthcare. Gotcha.

More than most do actually. I'm quite familiar with the manipulation of US patent laws as well as first line treatments with highly addictive drugs by the medial community. Its all about the degree of action said drug has on the mesolimbic pathway pathway.

What is your qualification for attempted Strawman?

Pshaw, I have a Stedman's Medical Dictionary and a Grey's Anatomy so I know way more than you or any doctor does.

Have DSM-IV too? I do, as well as a few courses in behavioral pharmacology. Like I said, not a research fellow but I know much more than the average person on the subject.

Nope, I prefer immediate results over waiting for them so I'm going for surgery. DSM-IV would be fun to have, but I find texts from pre-70's medicine fun.

**Peter Wiggin**

halonachos wrote:
Peter Wiggin wrote:
halonachos wrote:
Peter Wiggin wrote:
Frazzled wrote:So you don't have expertise on pharmaceuticals needed for healthcare. Gotcha.

More than most do actually. I'm quite familiar with the manipulation of US patent laws as well as first line treatments with highly addictive drugs by the medial community. Its all about the degree of action said drug has on the mesolimbic pathway pathway.

What is your qualification for attempted Strawman?

Pshaw, I have a Stedman's Medical Dictionary and a Grey's Anatomy so I know way more than you or any doctor does.

Have DSM-IV too? I do, as well as a few courses in behavioral pharmacology. Like I said, not a research fellow but I know much more than the average person on the subject.

Nope, I prefer immediate results over waiting for them so I'm going for surgery. DSM-IV would be fun to have, but I find texts from pre-70's medicine fun.

And once again ignorance rears its ugly head. I won't bother with your comment about immediate results in a thread that is decrying 20 year patent laws.

DSM-IV is the FOURTH edition of the diagnostic statistical manual for the behavioral health community. It was published in 1994 and the DSM-V should be released by 2012 with an emphasis on spectrum of disorder instead of 100% concrete diagnosis. I've worked with everything from MFT (the only lisence other than LCSW recognized in this state), to post-doctoral PsyD's, to psychiatrists (the MD other is psychologist) in my professional capacity. This establishes that I may just know what I am talking about to a certain degree. Admitedly, my own credentials focus more on the behavioral aspects than the medical....still the two are reliant on each other.

Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition (DSM-IV)

Psychiatric Diagnoses are categorized by the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 4th. Edition. Better known as the DSM-IV, the manual is published by the American Psychiatric Association and covers all mental health disorders for both children and adults. It also lists known causes of these disorders, statistics in terms of gender, age at onset, and prognosis as well as some research concerning the optimal treatment approaches.

Mental Health Professionals use this manual when working with patients in order to better understand their illness and potential treatment and to help 3rd party payers (e.g., insurance) understand the needs of the patient. The book is typically considered the ‘bible’ for any professional who makes psychiatric diagnoses in the United States and many other countries. Much of the diagnostic information on these pages is gathered from the DSM IV.

The DSM IV is published by the American Psychiatric Association. Much of the information from the Psychiatric Disorders pages is summarized from the pages of this text. Should any questions arise concerning incongruencies or inaccurate information, you should always default to the DSM as the ultimate guide to mental disorders.

The DSM uses a multiaxial or multidimensional approach to diagnosing because rarely do other factors in a person's life not impact their mental health. It assesses five dimensions as described below:

Axis I: Clinical Syndromes

*

This is what we typically think of as the diagnosis (e.g., depression, schizophrenia, social phobia)

Axis II: Developmental Disorders and Personality Disorders

*

Developmental disorders include autism and mental retardation, disorders which are typically first evident in childhood
*

Personality disorders are clinical syndromes which have a more long lasting symptoms and encompass the individual's way of interacting with the world. They include Paranoid, Antisocial, and Borderline Personality Disorders.

Axis III: Physical Conditions which play a role in the development, continuance, or exacerbation of Axis I and II Disorders

*

Physical conditions such as brain injury or HIV/AIDS that can result in symptoms of mental illness are included here.

Axis IV: Severity of Psychosocial Stressors

*

Events in a persons life, such as death of a loved one, starting a new job, college, unemployment, and even marriage can impact the disorders listed in Axis I and II. These events are both listed and rated for this axis.

Axis V: Highest Level of Functioning

*

On the final axis, the clinician rates the person's level of functioning both at the present time and the highest level within the previous year. This helps the clinician understand how the above four axes are affecting the person and what type of changes could be expected.

**Frazzled**

NO offense Frazz, but you don't know what you are talking about in relation to the background needed in order to efficiently deal with crisis care. Its not about "drug addicts" its about the fact that drug addiction is overly represented as a co-occurring treatment concern with the homeless, teens, LGBTQ's, and the mentally ill. And as anyone knows, you cannot treat co-occurring behavioral concerns separately and expect (statistically) a long term positive out come for your patient/client.
***I don't make the claim to know anything. I also didn't make the claim that an entire industry is evil. However I do know crisis care, although a potentially noble profession, has little to do with the pharmacy industry.

I'm not going to go down the road of pointing out your fallacies, since it will just open me up to the same tactic. Also not gonna argue with yah about this one. I do know what I'm talking about, thats enough for me.

***No, you don't. You know about handling addicts. Thats irrelevant to cancer medicines, heart medicines, liver and kidney medicines, brain medicines etc. etc. Again, I'm not making any overbroad claims here other than the common sense view that industries aren't :EEEEVVVVVILLLLLLL!!!!" **
**Banking, legal, and of course house building contractors of course being an exception.

Crisis care and behavioral health (my area of training) =/= drug addiction treatment
****Thats great but, so? Its nothing to do with the actual topic.

**Gibbsey**

Ahtman wrote:Each pill costs twenty cents to manufacture...except the first one. The first one cost 30 million (at least). Bringing a new medication from research through trials and testing to the market costs a boatload of cash.

Sorry Ahtman im going to have to disagree with you... it'll cost alot lot more than 30 million

Now there are certain things you need when making medical drugs.

Clean production line, machines and creating the clean area is very very expensive. Single machines run in the millions of dollars range all before the first pill is even made

This is after R&D (15% of one of these company's earnings is still immense) and advertising (needed for the drug to sell well)

Then you have employees and maintenance.

Machines break down or faulty batches are created, you need employees with high level of education to help figure out these problems and to test the pills.

**Peter Wiggin**

Fix qoutes please.

And yes, I do think that big pharma is evil and corrupt. This is based on the experiences I've had with them personally as well as seen first hand experience working with folks that have serious behavioral and medical concerns.

Plus their advertising is just too damn well designed from a psychological angle.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

halonachos wrote:
Peter Wiggin wrote:
halonachos wrote:
Peter Wiggin wrote:
Frazzled wrote:So you don't have expertise on pharmaceuticals needed for healthcare. Gotcha.

More than most do actually. I'm quite familiar with the manipulation of US patent laws as well as first line treatments with highly addictive drugs by the medial community. Its all about the degree of action said drug has on the mesolimbic pathway pathway.

What is your qualification for attempted Strawman?

Pshaw, I have a Stedman's Medical Dictionary and a Grey's Anatomy so I know way more than you or any doctor does.

Have DSM-IV too? I do, as well as a few courses in behavioral pharmacology. Like I said, not a research fellow but I know much more than the average person on the subject.

Nope, I prefer immediate results over waiting for them so I'm going for surgery. DSM-IV would be fun to have, but I find texts from pre-70's medicine fun.

Please try to treat schizophrenia, diabetes, and a host of other treatment concerns with surgery. Dumb comment is dumb.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:

Crisis care and behavioral health (my area of training) =/= drug addiction treatment
****Thats great but, so? Its nothing to do with the actual topic.

You asked what my qualifications were for decrying big-pharma. I have given you a little bit about my background, and the reasoning behind why I feel that I have at least a small idea of the scope of things.

The fact that you don't like my comments and don't agree does not change the fact that I have a fair amount of training and experience with the medical/behavioral healthcare system.

**halonachos**

God, Wiggins you are infuriating.

You do realize that I am a psych minor? I know what the DSM-IV is and I also know that behavioral diagnosis takes a long while to actually diagnose.

Same thing with being a gen. practicioner, you diagnose a disease after tests and then wait to see if the medicine you give works. If I'm a surgeon and I remove a bullet from someone's leg, BAM, instant results.

So yes, lolnoob indeed.

I'm a NREMT-B, can't do anything with it in this state besides work towards getting an ER Tech certification. Would've gone for state, but I was only 17 at the time the state test was going on.

Lolnoob.

**Gibbsey**

halonachos wrote:God, Wiggins you are infuriating.

You do realize that I am a psych minor? I know what the DSM-IV is and I also know that behavioral diagnosis takes a long while to actually diagnose.

Same thing with being a gen. practicioner, you diagnose a disease after tests and then wait to see if the medicine you give works. If I'm a surgeon and I remove a bullet from someone's leg, BAM, instant results.

So yes, lolnoob indeed.

I'm a NREMT-B, can't do anything with it in this state besides work towards getting an ER Tech certification. Would've gone for state, but I was only 17 at the time the state test was going on.

Lolnoob.

Im under the impression that wiggins is just trolling, especially with the lolnoob talk

**Peter Wiggin**

halonachos wrote:God, Wiggins you are infuriating.

You do realize that I am a psych minor? I know what the DSM-IV is and I also know that behavioral diagnosis takes a long while to actually diagnose.

Same thing with being a gen. practicioner, you diagnose a disease after tests and then wait to see if the medicine you give works. If I'm a surgeon and I remove a bullet from someone's leg, BAM, instant results.

So yes, lolnoob indeed.

I'm a NREMT-B, can't do anything with it in this state besides work towards getting an ER Tech certification. Would've gone for state, but I was only 17 at the time the state test was going on.

Lolnoob.

For bolded THANKS!

Good, then you have the background to make a comment based on your educational experiences. I however have the background to comment based on both my education and my professional experience.

Psyche minor huh? Thats cool, what is your major?

Im under the impression that wiggins is just trolling, especially with the lolnoob talk

Funny how using leetspeak makes folks think that isn't it? You are not correct. I could troll if I wanted, but this is a serious subject. Besides, why would I troll MY OWN thread?

**Ahtman**

Gibbsey wrote:
Ahtman wrote:Each pill costs twenty cents to manufacture...except the first one. The first one cost 30 million (at least). Bringing a new medication from research through trials and testing to the market costs a boatload of cash.

Sorry Ahtman im going to have to disagree with you... it'll cost alot lot more than 30 million

I can't list the R&D cost of every single drug out there you know. I was just using the .20 to 30,000,000.00 as an general example. I debated on 30 mill or 300 mill but in the end I flipped a coin.

**kronk**

Do they make a pill that will stop ke$ha from making more songs?

**Peter Wiggin**

halonachos wrote: you diagnose a disease after tests and then wait to see if the medicine you give works. If I'm a surgeon and I remove a bullet from someone's leg, BAM, instant results.

not test, diagnostic criteria. can be very different for behavoiral concerns. How does one test for Borderline Personality Disorder? Simple.....look at past history of patient in regards to life difficulty and treatment concern!

Splitting hairs, i know.

Comparing bullet in leg to chronic conditions (ie gonna treat the symptoms TY BIG PHARMA) is a fallacy. Plz no use

**Gibbsey**

Ahtman wrote:
Gibbsey wrote:
Ahtman wrote:Each pill costs twenty cents to manufacture...except the first one. The first one cost 30 million (at least). Bringing a new medication from research through trials and testing to the market costs a boatload of cash.

Sorry Ahtman im going to have to disagree with you... it'll cost alot lot more than 30 million

I can't list the R&D cost of every single drug out there you know. I was just using the .20 to 30,000,000.00 as an general example. I debated on 30 mill or 300 mill but in the end I flipped a coin.

Yep i know i was also pointing out the cost of a new production line/ new equipment for the new drug, also the cost of failed runs (bad batches can happen) and broken machinery (A machine being down on an active production line can cost million in a few hours).

**halonachos**

I hope so, with comments such as,

wiggins wrote:Please try to treat schizophrenia, diabetes, and a host of other treatment concerns with surgery. Dumb comment is dumb.

it shows that he's either trolling or so dense that he doesn't realise that I don't want to treat schizophrenia and other diseases, but instead would rather have the instant gratification of a job well done.

Plus, its called a Pancreas Transplant. Really dangerous, but it does cure diabetes using surgery.

Besides, going military for it:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Major be Biochemistry, what you got for that homie?

**Ahtman**

kronk wrote:Do they make a pill that will stop ke$ha from making more songs?

It's called a cyanide pill.

**Peter Wiggin**

Gibbsey wrote:
Ahtman wrote:
Gibbsey wrote:
Ahtman wrote:Each pill costs twenty cents to manufacture...except the first one. The first one cost 30 million (at least). Bringing a new medication from research through trials and testing to the market costs a boatload of cash.

Sorry Ahtman im going to have to disagree with you... it'll cost alot lot more than 30 million

I can't list the R&D cost of every single drug out there you know. I was just using the .20 to 30,000,000.00 as an general example. I debated on 30 mill or 300 mill but in the end I flipped a coin.

Yep i know i was also pointing out the cost of a new production line/ new equipment for the new drug, also the cost of failed runs (bad batches can happen) and broken machinery (A machine being down on an active production line can cost million in a few hours).

The cost of production is not proportional to the cost of said drugs under the current healthcare system. I'd link statistical data, but its so glaringly obvious to anyone that's had any contact with medical care that I shouldn't have to.

**halonachos**

Peter Wiggin wrote:
Comparing bullet in leg to chronic conditions (ie gonna treat the symptoms TY BIG PHARMA) is a fallacy. Plz no use

You do realize that I was trying to state why I prefer to be a surgeon over other forms of medical professions, yes?

**Peter Wiggin**

halonachos wrote:I hope so, with comments such as,

wiggins wrote:Please try to treat schizophrenia, diabetes, and a host of other treatment concerns with surgery. Dumb comment is dumb.

it shows that he's either trolling or so dense that he doesn't realise that I don't want to treat schizophrenia and other diseases, but instead would rather have the instant gratification of a job well done.

Plus, its called a Pancreas Transplant. Really dangerous, but it does cure diabetes using surgery.

Major be Biochemistry, what you got for that homie?

Why would you not want to treat disorders that cripple people for life from either a physical or mental standpoint? Didn't know about the pancreas thing though, very interesting.

My major was secondary education (social sciences) with a minor in modern military theory (yes, strange I know). I also hold a CAADAC certification in the state of California, an AA in Automotive occupational science, Volvo corporate training, and a half dozen tech related certifications. Sister went for neuroscience and did great. Now she works in a pet store and lives with parents cause no jobs out here. :(

Currently I'm slowly plodding away at my LCSW in the hopes of entering the administrative realm.

**Ahtman**

Peter Wiggin wrote:The cost of production is not proportional to the cost of said drugs under the current healthcare system. I'd link statistical data, but its so glaringly obvious to anyone that's had any contact with medical care that I shouldn't have to.

How's that confirmation bias working out for you?

halonachos wrote:Major be Biochemistry, what you got for that homie?

A tuition bill the likes of which could knock down a skyscraper.