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That's the flickerfield. The Nightshield messes with the range of weapons firing at the vehicle.

Nice way to assume. Read into what I said all you like, what I meant or didnt mean is pretty much beside the point.

All I'm doing is attempting to illustrate how easy it is to get into optimal range with a melta. Whatever I meant doesnt change the fact that it's easy to drop into perfect position.

Are we arguing Melta effectiveness...or semantics?

Just your ability to put the word "target" and not mean it, apparently.

I was illustating that drop pods against a DE player with even a modicum of thought will struggle to get into range of any *important* raider, or not be in a position where all they end up doing is killing a raider ans spend the rest of the game in an entirely unimportant position.

Even if its not an "important" raider on the outside....

Drop in, split squad on the drop, and melta two "unimportant" raiders with a melta/combi split, (and firing bolters which can clobber raiders too...) having a good chance of one or both of them exploding and damaging the squads inside? Break checks with a closeby squad?

Sounds like a useful way to utilise a DSing tac squad. Unimportant Marine troops clobbering the unimportant raiders.

Yea and if you're a canny DE player, you're not using the Nightsheilds...i.e. I dont care much for your raider screen, and will shoot down your important raiders anyway with a 12" melta range. 4+ cover acceptable to get those incubi down, out, and possibly pinned.

2 shots at Bs4 doesnt bring a raider down.

(2*2/3*2/3*2/3) + (2*2/3*1/6*1/2) = 19/27 even before a 4+ cover save. ANd you can quite easily be outside of 12" given pods size and the space between the raiders.

nosferatu1001 wrote:2 shots at Bs4 doesnt bring a raider down.

You're right.

(2*2/3*2/3*2/3) + (2*2/3*1/6*1/2) = 19/27 even before a 4+ cover save. ANd you can quite easily be outside of 12" given pods size and the space between the raiders.

Regardless what your mathhammer says. It takes ONE shot to bring down a raider. A single shot will do it.

A single shot CAN do it. Is it likely? No.

You dont get this accurate sentence thing, do you.

nosferatu1001 wrote:A single shot CAN do it. Is it likely? No.

You dont get this accurate sentence thing, do you.

You obviously havent played with/against DE vehicles.

Go ahead though, you win (since now you're bordering on being insulting), they're impossibly hard to bring down, melta's dont work against them, and DSing is useless.

Oh joy, more hyperbole. Would you like some slippery slope to add to your fallacies so far this thread?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvcJqcUlYTo

Please keep the discussion polite and on-topic. Thanks!

nosferatu1001 wrote:If droppods are placed in an initial position that will cause a mishap, and roll a "hit", they WILL MISHAP. This is because they can only reduce their scatter, they can NEVER increase their scatter to stop a mishap. If they roll a scatter, and dont roll high enough (or cannot roll high enough) to "clear" the obstacle(s), they WILL MISHAP.

Just curious, if I place a Drop Pod in a location that would mean it mishaps and roll scatter, but it isn't enough to get "clear", couldn't I move it as much as needed in the other direction and say that I'm reducing scatter by, for example, -6? TFG move? Yes. But it would be "legal", wouldn't it?

So... why don't we just compromise and say that we will just use heavy bolters because they are much cheaper and much more likely to take raiders down and have good enough range to be able to shoot at them most of the time.
Add to that heavy bolters insta-kill most Deldar and have good enough AP to deny most of their armour saves.
You know, because it IS Christmas

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:If droppods are placed in an initial position that will cause a mishap, and roll a "hit", they WILL MISHAP. This is because they can only reduce their scatter, they can NEVER increase their scatter to stop a mishap. If they roll a scatter, and dont roll high enough (or cannot roll high enough) to "clear" the obstacle(s), they WILL MISHAP.

Just curious, if I place a Drop Pod in a location that would mean it mishaps and roll scatter, but it isn't enough to get "clear", couldn't I move it as much as needed in the other direction and say that I'm reducing scatter by, for example, -6? TFG move? Yes. But it would be "legal", wouldn't it?

Yes it would be legal. You could do that, I think every Drop Pod has something called Inertial Guidance System which lets them bail out of Mishap situations. pg 47 of SW codex

To answer the question: Yes, meltas will make DE raiders cry, provided you are not in assault.

There is not much I can add, everybody else already brought up the facts on everything else.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:If droppods are placed in an initial position that will cause a mishap, and roll a "hit", they WILL MISHAP. This is because they can only reduce their scatter, they can NEVER increase their scatter to stop a mishap. If they roll a scatter, and dont roll high enough (or cannot roll high enough) to "clear" the obstacle(s), they WILL MISHAP.

Just curious, if I place a Drop Pod in a location that would mean it mishaps and roll scatter, but it isn't enough to get "clear", couldn't I move it as much as needed in the other direction and say that I'm reducing scatter by, for example, -6? TFG move? Yes. But it would be "legal", wouldn't it?

If it scatters into a position where it would mishap, you are only allowed to reduce the scatter. Moving it in the opposite direction is not following the instructions in the rules, even if it makes theoretical sense when you bring number lines into it.

Just don't put your pods down within an inch of the enemy.

I'm not sure I get the point of this thread.

Are melta-weapons less effective against Raiders? No, they've got a damn good chance of killing one, all things considered.

Are there better options, considering Dark Eldar as a whole? Of course there are. AV10 Transports don't need to be hit with melta weapons to destroy them, and meltagun range is short enough that most people are going to be safer shooting the raiders from afar. Autocannons, Missile Launchers, and even spammed lascannons (I'm looking at you, IG) can take down raiders just as easily from a position of relative safety.

Does this mean we should all stop taking melta weapons? This seems to be the gist of the OP's opening question, which imho is ridiculous. Just because melta is less effective against DE doesn't mean they're immune, or that melta weapons are obsolete. It just means that you need to have a greater variety of AT weapons if you want a competitive all-comers list. That, or out-smart your opponent and win a slightly uphill battle.

This is one of the stranger exchanges I’ve read here on Dakka.

Here’s a simple breakdown.
Melta is extremely good anti-AV. In an all-comers list it’s probably a good idea that you have some.

I was about to go through a bunch of mathhammer when I decided against it. There are so many scenario’s (raider moved fast gives 4+ save but can be destroyed on immobilized, raider may not have moved fast but could have flickerfield, raider could have night shields, etc.) that it’s really situational.

Bottom line is this when *I* include melta’s in my army it is with the assumption that I will do my best to be within 6” so I get the extra d6 to armor pen. This should put me within range of a raider with Night Shields. Being within 6” also embraces the assumption that you’re gonna get drilled by whatever’s coming out of that transport. No one puts a squad of marines in a drop pod and thinks to themselves “Once I drop this melta squad on my opponent’s crotch, he’ll be so scared, he’ll run away and leave me to eat the contents of the transport I just killed without reprisal.” More often, melta squads are designed to get whacked in the face after they do their job and that doesn’t change with Dark Eldar.

From a meta perspective Autocannons and Assault Cannons raise in value with the recent release of Codex Dark Eldar but melta is just as valuable as ever. It has a very high percentage of knocking a raider out of the sky given the right circumstances, its nearly a guaranteed wound against a chronos or talos, it’s ID for ALL Dark Eldar HQ’s, and, given limited alternatives, it should make friends with Vect’s expensive Dias nicely… But most importantly, it’s great in an all-comers list because, more often than not, YOU WON’T BE FACING DARK ELDAR.

o.o

People get mean quick...

But there has been a good deal of rules discussion and it has given me a lot to think about ^^. I can't wait to try my Hydras against DE.

There are lots of factors to this discussion on melta, but I will keep my opinion short. I feel they will be "Less" effective vs the DE. Anything that shoots in the 12 inch range has difficulty vs most fast armies. At least from the first strike standpoint. In the case of the DE, slagging their rides tends to be more effective from a distance. Melta will rock any vehicle the DE bring to the table, if it has the range. As stated before there are just better options vs the DE vehicles. With night shields reducing range by 6 inches really hamper the meltas range even more. However this is situational as not everyone takes them. I for one will not leave home without them as it ALMOST takes melta and bolters out of the equation. Less effective?...Yes. Take them out of your army?...Hell no!! Make sure you have a good mix of long, medium and short range dakka and you will be just fine vs the DE.

Hydras rock against all skimmers. Hence the aether sail being so useful - it gets you that extra distance to block firelanes to the hydras, which have to sit still to fire at full effectiveness.

Wulfenone - it would NOT be legal, as you can only *reduce* your scatter. Increasing the amount you scatter is not allowed. "Scatter" amount is scalar, not vector, so doesnt care about direction, just absolute distance.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Hydras rock against all skimmers. Hence the aether sail being so useful - it gets you that extra distance to block firelanes to the hydras, which have to sit still to fire at full effectiveness.

Wulfenone - it would NOT be legal, as you can only *reduce* your scatter. Increasing the amount you scatter is not allowed. "Scatter" amount is scalar, not vector, so doesnt care about direction, just absolute distance.

Ahh ok gotcha !

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned that the first thing a raider army (In my opinion) should do when they see melta-squads (or any anti-tank squads) in a drop pod is reserve the entire army...

Just my two cents...