Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi Dakka ,

I have a quick question to ask im not to familiar with the Dark Eldar and therefore need some help with this. Are Melta weapons obsolete against DE Raiders/ Ravagers ?

cheers

They arent obsolete, just kinda less effective. Taking out a raider or a ravager in melta range usually means the contents are going to jump out and eat you. That and their speed means they can just avoid the melta if need be.

Yeah. That, and...night shields.

I don't see why you need melta to pop such low AV

You dont really, it's just with everyone having gone melta for AT, raiders are weirdly effective against them. Means you anti infantry squads (assuming S4/5 weaponry) have to start hitting vehicles instead.

Guard and SW, as ever, are laughing with missile and autocannon spam. Sigh.

Yea, they're obsolete against them....

...in that a raider can be destroyed by one on a 3+ damage roll. (or a 2+ after the raider's moved more than 12")

So, if by "obsolete" you mean "scarilly effective", yes, Melta weapons are obsolete against Raiders and Ravagers.

Deadshane1 wrote:Yea, they're obsolete against them....

...in that a raider can be destroyed by one on a 3+ damage roll. (or a 2+ after the raider's moved more than 12")

So, if by "obsolete" you mean "scarilly effective", yes, Melta weapons are obsolete against Raiders and Ravagers.

QFT I've been dropping raiders with meltas just like anyother vehicle. 2+ for armor pen then +2 to damage table... thats alot of dead delfs

Then the Delf player is doing something wrong, as the only time a raider should be in meltagun range is if theyre are assaulting you....in which case your melta isnt firing.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Then the Delf player is doing something wrong, as the only time a raider should be in meltagun range is if theyre are assaulting you....in which case your melta isnt firing.

Thats right, because drop pods dont exist.

Blood Angels cannot DoA on you with multiple melta's either.

It's a good thing that Multi-Melta's dont have a 24" range (and you know, have almost the entire table 'covered' if stationed smack in the middle of the board)...much less be mounted on fastmoving vehicles like speeders.(in which case they could target you range-wise no matter WHERE you go on the board)

Sorry, but your statement is nonsense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh yea, and BTW....meltaguns are assault weapons.

That means so long as you are able to assault, you can shoot with them...then assault.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Then the Delf player is doing something wrong, as the only time a raider should be in meltagun range is if theyre are assaulting you....in which case your melta isnt firing.

Unless you're not playing an assault based army. Personally, I love playing against Melta armies; my anti-tank has longer range, and most importantly....all those meltas are one shot per turn. Autocannons, Assault Cannons, Multilasers, missile launchers - those are the *real* problem, because rolling a 1-2 to hit with a single shot isn't so important when you have multiple shots from the same weapon.

Deadshane. Sorry, nightshields do what now? Oh, thats right. Screw with Meltas.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Deadshane. Sorry, nightshields do what now? Oh, thats right. Screw with Meltas.

They screw the Melta guns it just means rhino's have to drive up to get within 6 inches to fire. but that doesnt stop drop units or fast moving vehicles with multi meltas that only need to get within 18 inches to fire. Speeders,Landraiders,dreadnaughts, stormravens, list can go on.

also there are tons more ap1 than just melta. Railguns, Exorcist missles,


I'd only go as far as to put the nightshields on the ravagers and leave it off eveyrthing else since it gets too expensive and is not worth the one time it may come in handy because a rhino failed to get within 6 inches of your tank....wont stop it from rapid firing its bolters at you though.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Deadshane. Sorry, nightshields do what now? Oh, thats right. Screw with Meltas.

Ooooo, yippee, quick all mech players spend an add'l 80-120 pts in their army for a peice of wargear that....

1.Won't do squat against any sort of ranged guard/Razorspam/missle devestator shooting.

2.Is MAGINALLY helpful against melta-fire. (last I checked, Str8 doesnt really need 2d6 pen dice against armour 10 open topped)


How is a nightsheild helpful if DSing bloodangels land where they need to, which there is a good chance of?

How will it help when a drop-pod targets itself smack in the middle of your raiders....rolling off of any it might land on top of still giving you optimal range/penetration against the nightsheild equipped raider.

How will it help against a fast moving speeder with a MM?

Oh thats right...it wont.


Nightsheilds are a waste of points in a fully mechanised list, an amusing annoyance otherwise. For 5 pts per vehicle, I could see using them, 10 pts? No way. They SURE dont make melta obsolete against DE.

How is it dropping in the middle? Youre assuming they left a nice droppod shaped hole in the middle of the many raiders....otherwise the droppod IS mishapping.

yeah, meltaguns are MOSTLY crap against DE. Regular meltaguns never get the +D6, and now vehicles have an invul save when they don't have their free cover save.

Most importantly, you're using a weapon that has a 6" range against a vehicle that can move 24". The only time you should be able to shoot them with meltas are after they've delivered their cargo, in which case it's mostly too late. Even then, you still need to deal with SMF and flickerfields.

Even in the last codex, DE was the counter to melta spam. It's only even moreso now.

nosferatu1001 wrote:How is it dropping in the middle? Youre assuming they left a nice droppod shaped hole in the middle of the many raiders....otherwise the droppod IS mishapping.

Droppods dont mishap by landing on top of enemy units. You wind up "rolling" off of them and landing in PERFECT firing position...even still getting your 2d6 to pen against the nightsheild equipped skimmer. Go read the rules on Drop Pods....a most fine vehicle for getting melta into position against DE.

nosferatu1001 wrote:How is it dropping in the middle? Youre assuming they left a nice droppod shaped hole in the middle of the many raiders....otherwise the droppod IS mishapping.

Dropping in the middle is a general term used to represent drop pod armies that drop into the middle of a fight and dish out damage. its not ment to be taken literally

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvcJqcUlYTo

Right, so if you're bringing 10x combi-melta sternguard and dropping them right on a raider, you've got a pretty reasonable chance of killing it.

That said, you just spent, what, 350 points to take down a ~70 point vehicle? That and the sternguard still didn't kill the wyches inside or the 12 other raiders on the board, meaning that the sternguard are wiped out the next turn without having seriously hampered the enemy plans.

using melta against DE is last-ditch, not front line.

Ah, then you just dont understand the rules for droppods.

If droppods are placed in an initial position that will cause a mishap, and roll a "hit", they WILL MISHAP. This is because they can only reduce their scatter, they can NEVER increase their scatter to stop a mishap. If they roll a scatter, and dont roll high enough (or cannot roll high enough) to "clear" the obstacle(s), they WILL MISHAP.

Amusing you're getting me to read them when you've made a fairly common error yourself....

mrdabba - no, deadshane is of the mistaken belief that you can target droppods ON enemy units and they will magically "roll off" them to ensure they are within range.

This is, of course, patently false.

Ailaros wrote:yeah, meltaguns are MOSTLY crap against DE. Regular meltaguns never get the +D6, and now vehicles have an invul save when they don't have their free cover save.

I dunno where you guys are getting this.

Nightsheilds reduce the weapons range by 6".

Melta get 2d6 to pen when within half range.

Melta is now max range 6" against nightsheild.

Drop pod in, roll off of target, melta's now less than 3" away from target.

str8 2d6 penetration.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Ah, then you just dont understand the rules for droppods.

If droppods are placed in an initial position that will cause a mishap, and roll a "hit", they WILL MISHAP. This is because they can only reduce their scatter, they can NEVER increase their scatter to stop a mishap. If they roll a scatter, and dont roll high enough (or cannot roll high enough) to "clear" the obstacle(s), they WILL MISHAP.

Amusing you're getting me to read them when you've made a fairly common error yourself....

mrdabba - no, deadshane is of the mistaken belief that you can target droppods ON enemy units and they will magically "roll off" them to ensure they are within range.

This is, of course, patently false.

quit feeding the troll:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvcJqcUlYTo

Also I dont believe anyone said to place a model were it would mishap.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Ah, then you just dont understand the rules for droppods.

If droppods are placed in an initial position that will cause a mishap, and roll a "hit", they WILL MISHAP. This is because they can only reduce their scatter, they can NEVER increase their scatter to stop a mishap. If they roll a scatter, and dont roll high enough (or cannot roll high enough) to "clear" the obstacle(s), they WILL MISHAP.

Amusing you're getting me to read them when you've made a fairly common error yourself....

When I say in the middle of your army....I'm talking about even the smallest drop pod sized area. Not on top of a raider and getting a 'hit'.

Point is, you dont have to worry much about deviation. You perfectly place your pod, then 'hit', or deviiate TOWARD the vehicle(s) and roll off or away which would be unfortunate but its one result out of three. Basically...drop pods are still a very good way to deliver melta on target.

I agree with Deadshane1 In the SW codex Drop Pods get something called Inertial Guidance system Quoted from Games Workshop Space Wolves Codex " Should a Drop Pod scatter on top of Impassable terrain or another model FRIEND or FOE! then reduce the scatter distance by the minimum required in order to avoid the obstacle. thats on pg 47

So, facing a drop pod army, you expect a Deld player to leave nice drop pod sized areas, with 2.5" gaps around the pod to let you disembark standard troops without coming withni 1" (which would either destroy them or mean they would not be placed until next turn, AFTER the deld have moved away) right next to their fragile transports?

Lol.

Edit: I am really, 100% truly and utterly familiar with the drop pod rules. DS appeared to belive you could place it ON an enemy mdoel and roll off to get "perfect" distance.

You cant, of course.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
mrdabba - no, deadshane is of the mistaken belief that you can target droppods ON enemy units and they will magically "roll off" them to ensure they are within range.

Yea...ummm...I never said this.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Ah, then you just dont understand the rules for droppods.

If droppods are placed in an initial position that will cause a mishap, and roll a "hit", they WILL MISHAP.

Yes, because space marine players of the competitive variety regularly place their drop pods within 1" of an enemy unit. >< I've seen it happen exactly once in a tournament, and my opponent didn't know better.

The fact that this has turned into "Nightshields!!" is a ridiculous discussion. People who drop nightshields on all their vehicles aren't DE players, they're marine players trying to play DE and not understanding how they work.

But as I said above; all in all - meltas are less threatening to DE than the entire range of all the other anti-tank if only because they're single shot. Its a good bet that WHATEVER anti-tank gets a hit is going to seriously hurt a raider/venom, and the fact that 5+ invulnerable saves are handy, meltas are not multi-shot per turn weapons, and they're short range makes them much less threatening.

If I play against a Melta army, I'm doing my best to sit at range killing their anti-tank without having to worry about the meltas for a turn or two. Splinter Cannons into long fangs and devestators, lances and blasters into landraiders, razorbacks, predators, and all the other 36" + anti-tank weaponry.

nosferatu1001 wrote:So, facing a drop pod army, you expect a Deld player to leave nice drop pod sized areas, with 2.5" gaps around the pod to let you disembark standard troops without coming withni 1" (which would either destroy them or mean they would not be placed until next turn, AFTER the deld have moved away) right next to their fragile transports?

Lol.

Well, I suppose if you've got enough raiders to cover the entire board leaving me NOWHERE to land I guess I would indeed mishap. Either leave a hole or I've got a better than 50% chance of landing perfectly...then knocking down your precious nightsheild equipped skimmer.

Deadshane1 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
mrdabba - no, deadshane is of the mistaken belief that you can target droppods ON enemy units and they will magically "roll off" them to ensure they are within range.

Yea...ummm...I never said this.

Yes you did

Deadshane1 getting the drop pod rules wrong wrote:Drop pod in, roll off of target, melta's now less than 3" away from target

So you drop in and "roll off" the target of the deepstrike. Meaning the target was the enemy vehicle.

Or you ability to construct clear sentences rivals GWs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Deadshane - i dont have to cover the entire board with skimmers. Just leave you nowhere you want to drop in your marines, who arent exactly throwaway.

Generally being able to dictate where your droppods land is a good thing, mkay?

correct me if im wrong the Nightshield rule for Dark Eldar gives the vehicle a 5+ invul?

Dashofpepper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Ah, then you just dont understand the rules for droppods.

If droppods are placed in an initial position that will cause a mishap, and roll a "hit", they WILL MISHAP.

Yes, because space marine players of the competitive variety regularly place their drop pods within 1" of an enemy unit. >< I've seen it happen exactly once in a tournament, and my opponent didn't know better.

The fact that this has turned into "Nightshields!!" is a ridiculous discussion. People who drop nightshields on all their vehicles aren't DE players, they're marine players trying to play DE and not understanding how they work.

But as I said above; all in all - meltas are less threatening to DE than the entire range of all the other anti-tank if only because they're single shot. Its a good bet that WHATEVER anti-tank gets a hit is going to seriously hurt a raider/venom, and the fact that 5+ invulnerable saves are handy, meltas are not multi-shot per turn weapons, and they're short range makes them much less threatening.

If I play against a Melta army, I'm doing my best to sit at range killing their anti-tank without having to worry about the meltas for a turn or two. Splinter Cannons into long fangs and devestators, lances and blasters into landraiders, razorbacks, predators, and all the other 36" + anti-tank weaponry.

I'll concede that Dash, perhaps less threatening...but definatly NOT obsolete. When a melta IS IN RANGE of a DE vehicle...its a good chance that the skimmer is going to be exploding. Rolling a 2 against a raider for damage with a missle at least still leaves you a Vehicle, with a melta...it doesnt.