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Not to mention that being bunched up due to any of the reasons for being bunched up that mrdabba so accurately pointed out are hardly optimal situations. You keep your 2" dispersion when you can, and it sucks if you can't when there's blast templates on the table.

In our community, we dont "pile up" exploded vehicle survivors into a space that is occupied by a rhino. We bring craters. - That's is right, craters. Some craters are bigger than the rhino, which is totally legal. And that is why I never see 5 guys getting hit by blast templates. Most of the time its 2 guys.

Lesson for the day: Make your crater terrain and always bring it.

I do the same thing, Yuber.

Most of the time, anyway. Some groups are awfully particular about the size of an exploded vehicle crater.

Monster Rain wrote:I do the same thing, Yuber.

Most of the time, anyway. Some groups are awfully particular about the size of an exploded vehicle crater.

Ofcourse no one wants to play a guy who brings a 7" crater for his exploded rhino. LOL.

The "old seven incher" is generally used for Land Raiders, thank you very much.

Monster Rain wrote:The "old seven incher" is generally used for Land Raiders, thank you very much.

Yes, and the fact that your LR exploded poses a more problematic situation than worrying about getting blast-templated to death. XD

Psssh.

It's all part of the plan.

Monster Rain wrote:Psssh.

It's all part of the plan.

Monster Rain, you know too much. For a town drunk.

Have you ever seen a shoggoth?

Innsmouth is a rough town.

Hey, you're on the opposite side of the country from Innsmouth now! Who are you to talk? Place is practically just down the road from me.

Most common dimension of craters I see is the same size as the vehicle. Some veteran tournament players I know make a point of making craters with the same footprint. Blast markers can work quite well at times. Of course, playing chaos, I stack the deck by using Lash.

Mannahnin wrote:Hey, you're on the opposite side of the country from Innsmouth now! Who are you to talk? Place is practically just down the road from me.

Hey. I was born a little ways down the 495 from Arkham.

I've seen things that would blast your sanity to smithereens!

_________________

A common thing I'm seeing on the west coast is making an outline of a vehicle with dice and calling that the crater.

Not quite as dramatic as a big, painted crater though.

Yeah, I've seen the dice outline thing in several places as an improvised substitute, especially if no one has a crater handy.

Personally I use blank CD's They cost about 2 cents a piece. I've never had any complaints about using them.

They make a great base for modeling a crater. Their diameter is about the same as a Rhino's length, too.

Quite interesting thread. I'm always very excited to read through people's discussion - especially when they become "hot" (roll a 1, and get flamed!).

My only regreat is not having played a shooty army myself, hence not having anything to add, although i do find that most have something to add to the discussion. You just can't deny cookie-cutter builds, even though innovative thinking is much fun and excitement.

Either way, keep it up!

mrdabba wrote:...you can shoot 5 krak or 5 frag. thats AT And Anti horde all in one package. you cant do that with 5 Heavy bolters.

Bang on Target, once you experience the utility of this unit with 5 MLs, you wont want anything else, it's always good. (Its also Tyranid BGONE). Being just HBs at 3/4 range and ONLY vs anti horde is just a fraction of the utility and the 30 points saved per unit, and it will seem very meager by comparison.

I have 3 units of 5x ML, and a single unit of 5 HBs long fangs, I played it 3 times, once by itself, once with an Assault Cannon Wolf Guard and Once with a Cyclone, which was actually pretty good.
Unfortunately in 2 cases I ended up shooting HBs at rhinos, wishing I had the missiles instead...

I'd have to agree. I have a unit of Heavy bolters I occasionally field for fun. But in the end heavy bolter fangs end up in my carrier case right next to the whirlwind tank. Cool if you know hordes are coming, damn near useless against anything else.

I dont know why I dont see more 3 missle launchers 2 plasma cannon load outs, you get 2 str 7 templates that can hurt vehicles and marines.

So you can split 3 missle shots 2 plasma cannon shots.

The same reason you don't see mixed weapon load outs in any competitive lists: As soon as sarge dies, they have to fire on the same target. Generally speaking, mixing str and AP values in a squad doesn't work out so well. Better to keep them uniform more often than not.

With all ML (or all of any weapon), Sarge is a nice benefit while he lasts but he;s the first to go when wounds start coming in. Better to sacrifice him than a heavy weapon to preserve the ability to split fire. That is putting the cart in front of the horse. The split fire is a nice little extra while it lasts, the squad should not be built around it. The weapons are what are important, not sarge.

CKO wrote:I dont know why I dont see more 3 missle launchers 2 plasma cannon load outs, you get 2 str 7 templates that can hurt vehicles and marines.

So you can split 3 missle shots 2 plasma cannon shots.

Because the plasma cannon is the worse heavy weapon IMHO.

-Most of the time you can only get 1-2 guys
-Does a really bad job against tanks
-the Scatter gimps your BS4
-It gets hot, even lowering your chances of hitting with it.
-Guys are in cover most of the time
-More expensive than ML.

Its still a str 7 shot against a vehicle compared to the extra str 8 shot, so I dont see a huge drop off.

At yuber all of your points are reasonable but in my opinion the good out way the bad. I mean its an easy way to add an anti-infantry weapon, how many marine killer weapons does your list have?

If you go plasma, go 5 plasma, IMO.

I like using many load outs for my Long Fangs.

I go 5x ML, 2xHB/3xML, 2xHB/3xPC, and 5xLC.

Having the ability to run all those different load outs gives me the flexibility to meet any situation. You can argue the benefits of ML v. X until the cows come home but what it comes down to is simple. Not everything can be solved by a ML. I like the 5xHB load out, especially in an area like mine where I run into lots of Orks. Good players know how to spread their units out to mitigate the small blast template so saying you can get 9 hits with a small blast in most situations isn't a viable comparison. Are ML the better choice in most situations? Yes. Does that mean you are taking the worst option(s) because you aren't taking the best one? No.

CKO wrote:Its still a str 7 shot against a vehicle compared to the extra str 8 shot, so I dont see a huge drop off.

At yuber all of your points are reasonable but in my opinion the good out way the bad. I mean its an easy way to add an anti-infantry weapon, how many marine killer weapons does your list have?

If marine killer is the topic, as Reecius pointed out, the MLs are good enough. And trust me, that additional point of strength against vehicles is HUGE, especially when you are using a blast template weapon that GETS HOT! The BS 4 Krak missile is phenomenally better and cheaper. The only reason I can think of why you want a PC is if you are up against TEQs, and those types usually die to massed bolter fire or even the humble las gun by forcing a bajillion saves.

To be fair tho, try it out and you'll see what I mean =)

ML are great for long range anti-transport, right? Their also good for throwing wounds on those damn 'nid MCs. They are good vs. medium armor as well.
HB are great for anti-infantry. Need to throw wounds on some termies? 5 hbs will do the trick -- he will start rolling 1's.

If you have anti-transport elsewhere in your army, then the need for MLs becomes less needed.

SW Long Fangs are best with MLs. I've played against a SW player who used 5 ML Long Fangs and attached a WG in Terminator Armor with a Cyclone Missile Launcher. That's 7, S8 AP3 with the Krak shots. With a 48 inch range, you can just sit back and unload. They're also incredibly inexpensive for what they can do, and always seem to make more then their point value worth.

CKO wrote:...see more...plasma cannon load out....

I don't do it because I generally don't play units that can kill themselves, just to frustrating. Also the 36 inch range doesn't go as well with the 48. I think missile las makes more sense for the points.
YMMV.

Yeah, the only mixed arms load out I have seen that was worth a gak was the ML/Las. I still say all ML is clearly the best choice, but that combo does work well.