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purplefood wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:

purplefood wrote:Actually come to think of it...
There was a mention of a planet that had a lot of genetic "cleansings" so they could be "pure" but that planet was also attacked and wiped out by the Black Templars sogo figure...
I think there are racists but they are either bad or going to be bad and there is no racism in the majority of the IoM.

the cleansing probably refers to mutants or sub-humans, not skin colour

It never said what it referred to but from what i could tell it started of small and got more and more aggressive. It probably did include those of different skin colours but i doubt they simply focused on them.

Have to agree with the "not based on skin colour" thingie, although I don't agree with the "only mutants or sub-humans" idea. Even though the leaders on Lastrati probably considered loads of people "mutants", I find it difficult to believe that only 2,5 million out of a population of 14 billion would be "non-mutants".

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

purplefood wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:

purplefood wrote:Actually come to think of it...
There was a mention of a planet that had a lot of genetic "cleansings" so they could be "pure" but that planet was also attacked and wiped out by the Black Templars sogo figure...
I think there are racists but they are either bad or going to be bad and there is no racism in the majority of the IoM.

the cleansing probably refers to mutants or sub-humans, not skin colour

It never said what it referred to but from what i could tell it started of small and got more and more aggressive. It probably did include those of different skin colours but i doubt they simply focused on them.

Have to agree with the "not based on skin colour" thingie, although I don't agree with the "only mutants or sub-humans" idea. Even though the leaders on Lastrati probably considered loads of people "mutants", I find it difficult to believe that only 2,5 million out of a population of 14 billion would be "non-mutants".

Considering it says they were purging their army even while fighting the BT they must have killed more than 2.5 million.

purplefood wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

purplefood wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:

purplefood wrote:Actually come to think of it...
There was a mention of a planet that had a lot of genetic "cleansings" so they could be "pure" but that planet was also attacked and wiped out by the Black Templars sogo figure...
I think there are racists but they are either bad or going to be bad and there is no racism in the majority of the IoM.

the cleansing probably refers to mutants or sub-humans, not skin colour

It never said what it referred to but from what i could tell it started of small and got more and more aggressive. It probably did include those of different skin colours but i doubt they simply focused on them.

Have to agree with the "not based on skin colour" thingie, although I don't agree with the "only mutants or sub-humans" idea. Even though the leaders on Lastrati probably considered loads of people "mutants", I find it difficult to believe that only 2,5 million out of a population of 14 billion would be "non-mutants".

Considering it says they were purging their army even while fighting the BT they must have killed more than 2.5 million.

Codex: Black Templars, page 19, "The Second Purging of Lastrati wrote:Genetically tailored viruses that targeted particular traits eradicated whole swathes of the population and when Imperial contact was re-established with this remote planet, only two and a half million inhabitants were left of a world that had once boasted a population of fourteen billion

I think posters here are overestimating the ability of an alien threat to unify humans. Sure, those in the armed forces (IG/Astartes/ect) are forced to ignore previous racial differences in the face of such threats. And the calls for people to be wary of the witch/mutant/heretic may serve to distract the common man from the slight differences of his neighbor...or it may compound them.

The average imperial citizen is not facing down aliens or 'real' mutants and witches. There will be racism and it is naive to suggest otherwise. In some cases it could be as small as a distinct distrust of Off-worlders (especially if these off-worlders arrive in droves and take up jobs), it could be as biased as the ruling nobility of a planet being of a different ethnicity as their subjects. Worse yet, the Ecclesiarchial preaching of 'purity' can be taken in a very dark manner, as the AlmightyWalrus has pointed out. (Wow that last bit sounds so strange )

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Codex: Black Templars, page 19, "The Second Purging of Lastrati wrote:Genetically tailored viruses that targeted particular traits eradicated whole swathes of the population and when Imperial contact was re-established with this remote planet, only two and a half million inhabitants were left of a world that had once boasted a population of fourteen billion

this really isn't proof as the open use of the word 'traits' this could mean skin colour (race) or those that are mutated from the human genetic norm

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

purplefood wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

purplefood wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:

purplefood wrote:Actually come to think of it...
There was a mention of a planet that had a lot of genetic "cleansings" so they could be "pure" but that planet was also attacked and wiped out by the Black Templars sogo figure...
I think there are racists but they are either bad or going to be bad and there is no racism in the majority of the IoM.

the cleansing probably refers to mutants or sub-humans, not skin colour

It never said what it referred to but from what i could tell it started of small and got more and more aggressive. It probably did include those of different skin colours but i doubt they simply focused on them.

Have to agree with the "not based on skin colour" thingie, although I don't agree with the "only mutants or sub-humans" idea. Even though the leaders on Lastrati probably considered loads of people "mutants", I find it difficult to believe that only 2,5 million out of a population of 14 billion would be "non-mutants".

Considering it says they were purging their army even while fighting the BT they must have killed more than 2.5 million.

Codex: Black Templars, page 19, "The Second Purging of Lastrati wrote:Genetically tailored viruses that targeted particular traits eradicated whole swathes of the population and when Imperial contact was re-established with this remote planet, only two and a half million inhabitants were left of a world that had once boasted a population of fourteen billion

Sorry read your post incorrectly. My bad.

There IS racism in the 40k universe.

But it is usually confined to specific RACIAL (not human genetic variation) targets. The Imperium is very racist towards anything NOT human.

So are the Eldar (towards non-Eldar - the so-called
Mon'keigh races').

Orks don't really care. They only want to fight and it is ingrained into their genes to pick on the weakest (basic carnivore instinct).

Tau want everyone to be part of their 'greater good' whether or not it is actually better for the others. There are hints and whispers that their empire is not one great big happy family.

race = variation in a species, racism = the believe a race is inferior to another

therefore hating an alien isn't racist, it can be xenophobic, but not racist

please use a dictionary

i hate cats, i'm racist

I still believe that there would be less racial diversity in the distant future (40K or reality). They may be anatomical variety between different planets and solar systems, by on an established planet thats been around for millennia I see there being less diversity among it native population.

There absolutely would be prejudice and bigotry, but I think think class and 'planet of origin' would be the biases of the prejudice.

So basically IMHO there will be prejudice and of course xenophobia, but not widespread 'racism'.

So Vulkan He'Stan walks into Ultramar ...

The mighty Ultramharinez slay the chaotic looking black skinned red eyed legend with a fusillade of bolter rounds (a lot since he'stan is hard as nails!)

His last and dying quote is forever immortalized by the Salamanders to this day...

'yo dawg is it coz I is black? ARRRGhhhh!'

I say yes. I can imagine much similar arguments as today... the emperor was of this race, regardless as to whether he was or not, and thus all others are mutants to be purged. The Imperium in my mind is like that little statement in the beginning of the rulebook. A hundred times the 'shut up and die' and none of the 'we don't serve your kind here' (unless we're speaking of droids )

BluntmanDC wrote:

please use a dictionary

i hate cats, i'm racist

Would that be an English dictionary or an American one? Or Klingon or Na'vi (Sindaril and Quenya don't count - they are made up languages.). You use 'race' - I suppose I meant species. The idea of race is such a mixed up bag of pre-colonial concepts anyway.

You aren't racist if you hate cats.

It makes you a dog-lover - somewhere below the ranks of rugby or cricket player in the hierarchy of being human.



There is no cat 'race' nor dog 'race'. They are species.

chromedog wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:

please use a dictionary

i hate cats, i'm racist

There is no cat 'race' nor dog 'race'. They are species.

so how is this supporting you?

eldar, orks, tyranids, tau by their very definition species

BluntmanDC wrote:race = variation in a species, racism = the believe a race is inferior to another

therefore hating an alien isn't racist, it can be xenophobic, but not racist

please use a dictionary

i hate cats, i'm racist

+1

Luco wrote:
I say yes. I can imagine much similar arguments as today... the emperor was of this race, regardless as to whether he was or not, and thus all others are mutants to be purged.

I can see that. People in different parts of the world today portray Jesus as different ethnicities. If someone was trying to stir hate that could be a good argument.

Phototoxin wrote:So Vulkan He'Stan walks into Ultramar ...

The mighty Ultramharinez slay the chaotic looking black skinned red eyed legend with a fusillade of bolter rounds (a lot since he'stan is hard as nails!)

His last and dying quote is forever immortalized by the Salamanders to this day...

'yo dawg is it coz I is black? ARRRGhhhh!'

hahaha for some reason the theme song for fresh prince of bell air played in my head as i mentally visualised that scene but instead of ultramarines firing bolters at vulkan I pictured them throwing loads of basketballs until he passes out

ChronoCupcake wrote:Just a quick thought do you think inter human racism still exists in the 40k universe ?, I mean sure humanity's got a hell of a lot more foreign and literally alien species to hate on now then ever before but do you think the majority of humanity has altogether forgotten or otherwise put aside there racist tenancies ? or do they still exist to some extent ?.

The OP does specifically ask if the MAJORITY of humanity has put aside their racist tendencies.

Clearly, in an Imperium of thousands, or tens of thousands of worlds, there must probably exist both worlds with some amount of interracial conflict, and some worlds with one racial type which view all other racial types as inferior. Given that we know that many worlds have civil wars, it is highly unlikely that all those civil conflicts NEVER involve racism.

However, I would think that for a majority of humanity, the threats of psykers, mutants, and actual aliens would probably dampen the perception of difference between racial groups. While your skin and hair color may differ from other humans, you don't have psychic powers, tentacles, or a green, fungoid body. We are terribly aware of minor cosmetic differences between humans, but I suspect that perception would go away if there were numerous other actual intelligent, humanoid races around.

On the other hand, the vast scale of the Imperium does allow extreme population isolation. Ogryns and ratlings are possibly not homo sapiens, I suspect, so discrimination against them would be cross-species hatred, rather than racism. However, void-born populations, high gravity populations, etc. would probably arise. I can certainly see people being at least as irrationally freaked out about fragile, slender, low-gee humans as about humans with different skin color and eyes.

Finally, this isn't just any SciFi setting. It's the Imperium of Man. You have an actual Emperor of Humanity, and an actual faith which clearly declares that humanity is superior and intended to inherit the galaxy. Given that you have a government and a religion which mandates, very strenuously, the allegiance of humans to fellow humans, and the hatred and abhorrence of aliens, I think that a lot of racism would be put down violently by the government as seditious. You are encouraged to hate the heretic, the witch, and the mutant, which kind of (by absence) tells you to leave the guy with different color skin alone (unless it's a weird color, in which case he's a mutant!).

Too late to make this a short post, but I think that you'd have some worlds, mostly those which saw very little interaction with the Imperium at large, where racism was significant, but for most of humanity, xenophobia, religious intolerance, and mutant-phobia would pretty much take over the irrational hatred role from racism.

BluntmanDC wrote:race = variation in a species, racism = the believe a race is inferior to another

therefore hating an alien isn't racist, it can be xenophobic, but not racist

please use a dictionary

Not really, racism is any discrimination based on race, a belief that the other race is inferior could be inferred from that but is not implicit. Race as used in fantasy gaming is more a substitute for the word faction. It comes from the widespread phrase 'the human race' which in itself is meaningless as humans are a species and not a race. A race is a subset of a species based on certain parameters and is usually considered to be an extant (currently alive) subset. If humans are a race of some larger group, what is that group and where are they because I'm unaware of any similar hominids currently walking this planet to which we share our species with.

Xenophobic actually means fear of foreigners/aliens, not hatred.

I tend to think that while inter-human racism is reduced, it is certainly still present. We do not see it because the majority of "ethnicities" we see are either SM (who see themselves as vastly superior to common humans, perhaps rightly so) or militant groups like the Cadians or Tallarns, groups that likely feel a certain bond through their service to the Emperor. However, if a Tallarn were to visit Cadia, he might not be as well received as he would on the battlefield. Rather than being overjoyed at any support they can get, the Cadian civlians might say,
"Go back to your deserts, Tallarn. This world doesn't need your kind."

If you read the Ciaphas Cain novels, you will find that Cain actually has a certain prejudice toward the Tallarns, calling the entire group a race of "Emperor Botherers" (see "The Traitor's Hand")

Shrouger wrote:I tend to think that while inter-human racism is reduced, it is certainly still present. We do not see it because the majority of "ethnicities" we see are either SM (who see themselves as vastly superior to common humans, perhaps rightly so) or militant groups like the Cadians or Tallarns, groups that likely feel a certain bond through their service to the Emperor. However, if a Tallarn were to visit Cadia, he might not be as well received as he would on the battlefield. Rather than being overjoyed at any support they can get, the Cadian civlians might say,
"Go back to your deserts, Tallarn. This world doesn't need your kind."

Offworlder prejudice can only be expected, it is arguable that even on their own worlds people may have racism between continents or even different hive cities.

If you read the Ciaphas Cain novels, you will find that Cain actually has a certain prejudice toward the Tallarns, calling the entire group a race of "Emperor Botherers" (see "The Traitor's Hand")

That's more due to their (correct) fanaticism regarding their worship of the Emperor. Something Cain believes gets you killed pretty quickly.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Shrouger wrote:I tend to think that while inter-human racism is reduced, it is certainly still present. We do not see it because the majority of "ethnicities" we see are either SM (who see themselves as vastly superior to common humans, perhaps rightly so) or militant groups like the Cadians or Tallarns, groups that likely feel a certain bond through their service to the Emperor. However, if a Tallarn were to visit Cadia, he might not be as well received as he would on the battlefield. Rather than being overjoyed at any support they can get, the Cadian civlians might say,
"Go back to your deserts, Tallarn. This world doesn't need your kind."

Offworlder prejudice can only be expected, it is arguable that even on their own worlds people may have racism between continents or even different hive cities.

If you read the Ciaphas Cain novels, you will find that Cain actually has a certain prejudice toward the Tallarns, calling the entire group a race of "Emperor Botherers" (see "The Traitor's Hand")

That's more due to their (correct) fanaticism regarding their worship of the Emperor. Something Cain believes gets you killed pretty quickly.

This jogged my memory. In the novel "Flesh and Iron" You do have some inter-human prejudice/racism. The natives on the planet being increasingly marginalised and run off their land by the ministorum. Even though the natives there were the ancestors of the first colonists to settle there and are technically members of the Imperium.

Lexx wrote:This jogged my memory. In the novel "Flesh and Iron" You do have some inter-human prejudice/racism. The natives on the planet being increasingly marginalised and run off their land by the ministorum. Even though the natives there were the ancestors of the first colonists to settle there and are technically members of the Imperium.

There's no technicality about it. They were subjects of the Imperium, but this is probably the best example of racism in 40k. (Not disimillar to Spains conquest and exploitation of the Americas). Another book that offers some insight on the issue is Planet Killer...or Planet Deaths (something or other ).

Laughing God eldar are very racist each craft world comes from a different planet as you should know and each house is a different race. For example when the Irish came over to america they weren't a lowed in sertant bars or even towns same things happen to eldar pirates and Dark eldar are a different race of eldar because the dont have the abilaty to be very psychic something that all eldar have. And ya not letting people onto your plot of land because of were they come from is being racist.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Lexx wrote:This jogged my memory. In the novel "Flesh and Iron" You do have some inter-human prejudice/racism. The natives on the planet being increasingly marginalised and run off their land by the ministorum. Even though the natives there were the ancestors of the first colonists to settle there and are technically members of the Imperium.

There's no technicality about it. They were subjects of the Imperium, but this is probably the best example of racism in 40k. (Not disimillar to Spains conquest and exploitation of the Americas). Another book that offers some insight on the issue is Planet Killer...or Planet Deaths (something or other ).

Yeah just re-read some of it earlier. Executing the natives and clearing their land to make way for more deserving servants of the emperor. Lovely times .

Shrouger wrote:However, if a Tallarn were to visit Cadia, he might not be as well received as he would on the battlefield. Rather than being overjoyed at any support they can get, the Cadian civlians might say,
"Go back to your deserts, Tallarn. This world doesn't need your kind."

Tallarn is a desert planet so where does the oxygen come from if there are no great forests somewhere on it?

Because the Emperor's big message was atheisim, human unity and alien genocide, that pretty much rules out most inter-human conflicts until the heresy, when Chaos or not-chaos is a factor. Pretty certain that if the great crusade happened on a planet with active ethnic clensing going on, 8/9 Legions would put a stop to that immidiatley. The small majority would be forced to stop when the administratum arrived. In 40K, there probably is a planet or two out there out of the million-something planets, or a hive out of a million-something hives that has traditional racisim, but that planet probably hasn't had a zombie plauge or ork invasion yet.

The closest we could get is with Abhumans, that are actually pretty much "races" in a modern context. They lived somewhere for 10,000 years, and now they are used to that environment, just like the modern races. You rarely see ratling lynch mobs though, maybe that is part of the family frendly bit. While 99% of humanity has either become a wash or irrelevent, there is probably anti-abbhuman sentiments that we will never see, as rare as they probably are. (because really, are you going to get the sniper who covers you, feeds you, and sells you better equipment shipped out because you dont like his fuzzy feet?) Even then it is more justifyed making "Ogryn jokes" because as tasteless and politically incorrect making racist jokes is, they really can snap you in two, and really are dumber than a pair of bricks.

EDIT:

Shrouger wrote:However, if a Tallarn were to visit Cadia, he might not be as well received as he would on the battlefield. Rather than being overjoyed at any support they can get, the Cadian civlians might say,
"Go back to your deserts, Tallarn. This world doesn't need your kind."

this statement defys logic.

Tallarn is a desert planet so where does the oxygen come from if there are no great forests somewhere on it?

I imagine they have some bodies of water with algae; just very little mineral wealth or nutrients, meaning that no plants grow on land, leaving the soil to become very thin and "sandlike"

There are differneces in religion in 40k. The imperial faith has one central belief (the emperor is god and you must serve him) but apart from that every different aspect can vary. Worlds are indoctrinated by mixing the imperial cult with the worlds previous beliefs. Some people see the Emperor as an all powerful figure you meet when you die and others think he looks like an animal.

The fact that they all see the emperor as something different can make just as many if not more conflicts. They all think their interpretation is correct and others are wrong.

Whenever humans from different cultures meet there will be racism. The main reason we don't see it is that people don't often leave their planet and when they do they tend to stay with others from their home world.

For my $0.02 - I think that racism is made up for the sole purpose of one minority to claim oppression and there for stigmatize whites for their dominance.

A better term would be Xenophobia. Because to truly be a racist you have to hate the race… all of it. The Human Race. We are not divided in different races, we are all part of one race, the Human Race. Your skin color/features represent isolationist breeding from specific dominant traits in the region your ancestors are from. It does not make you a different race.

Otherwise Green Eyed people, Gingers, Dudes with Dyed hair… they would be different races too because well… they look different. Right?

So Xeno Phobia would be a better term

DEF: “Xenophobia” The fear/dislike/distrust of things different from you or your culture.

But people don’t say - “Man that dude is Xenophobic!” Which would be accurate… they say “Racist” because they want to make it about “Them” and how “They” were wronged. Racism implies ownership. I can’t get a job because someone doesn’t like the color of my skin… really? So no one but white people work there? Unlikely.

Besides the skin colors in the 41st mil, would all but have disappeared due to "intermingling" so if you are asking if Black People are still oppressed in the 41stK? Nope... because statistically, given the prominence and dominance of the "Negroid" gene (and dont freak out about me saying "Negroid", it is the accurate genetic term for it, not a slur). Everyone will have what we refer to as "Black" features.

Connor McKane wrote:
A better term would be Xenophobia. Because to truly be a racist you have to hate the race… all of it. The Human Race. We are not divided in different races, we are all part of one race, the Human Race. Your skin color/features represent isolationist breeding from specific dominant traits in the region your ancestors are from. It does not make you a different race.

Yes it does.

From the dictionary:
race 2
noun
1. a group of people of common ancestry, distinguished from others by physical characteristics, such as hair type, colour of eyes and skin, stature, etc. Principal races are Caucasoid, Mongoloid, and Negroid
2. the human race human beings collectively
3. a group of animals or plants having common characteristics that distinguish them from other members of the same species, usually forming a geographically isolated group; subspecies

Connor McKane wrote:
Besides the skin colors in the 41st mil, would all but have disappeared due to "intermingling" so if you are asking if Black People are still oppressed in the 41stK? Nope... because statistically, given the prominence and dominance of the "Negroid" gene (and dont freak out about me saying "Negroid", it is the accurate genetic term for it, not a slur). Everyone will have what we refer to as "Black" features.

I agree, as I posted earlier in this thread, that scientist predict that all the races will eventually mix (for the most part).

But what I had not thought about (and other forum memeber brought up) is that an isolated human population on a far off planet is going to eventually mutant (slightly, I not refer to abhumans), and likely differ in appearance from other human populations. You can't think about it in modern terms where all humans live on Earth. In 40k humans are spread over millions of worlds, and factor such as gravity, radiation level, light levels and atmospheric conditions would have an eventually effect on a population.

Racism wouldn't be the only factor to overall prejudice to other different human populations (religious beliefs, dialects, etc.), but it would be part of the equation.