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Well some people can be a bit weird when it comes to things like that. I never have a problem with it as long as it is very limited and easy to remember. One weapon difference is fine for me. Sometimes I hae a friend who will do something like "all the plasmaguns are really meltas" which is fine because at least it is consistent. I would probably start getting annoyed if things were overly complex or it persisted for more than a week or two, thats just lazy.

Had another idea about the vendetta. A bit odd but you could have some kind of mounted servitor or servo skull to represent increased targetting power. The wings may look a bit odd with underslung cyborgs though. Or how about a guy with binoculars spotting out of the side hatch with a comlink?

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:FYI: My argument was that Forge World KITS were debatable on whether or not they're official. I never said "stuff". Go check my post before you put any more words into my mouth Strawman.

No it wasn't. Read your own posts better.

Also, would you have the page number, paragraph number and book reference to where it says that? Because I looked through the first few pages of the first three Imperial Armor books and, apart from mentioning it's a supplimentary book and that you need to have read the Warhammer 40k Rulebook and associated codexes before you even think about using it, I did not find where it states that it's an official book.

Which are you dubbing the "First three Imperial Armor" books?

If it's the wimpy paperbacks, then that's your reason why they were called "supplements".
IA5 and onwards have all stated that they are official Games Workshop products and do not require your opponent's consent any more than any standard Codex does.

Also, the Guard book has been out for some time. It's not like the DE who just got their update and another one coming up. If it was undeniably official then GW would have carried the Hydra tank in their store.

Uh, no they wouldn't. Because they refer you to Forge World for the "official" Hydra model. This isn't complicated, y'know.
GW has almost without fail never stocked Forge World items within their main webpage.

Why?
Because they can't guarantee their stock levels or maintain an inventory system for it that works well.

And you were just dumping on how bad a kit the Manticore was too, so why didn't they update the apparently even worse Valk kit when they did with the less bad Manticore?

No, the redesigned Manticore kit is the terrible one. And that was the result of compromising it to make something with a profile that doesn't steal from the Whirlwind.

Why didn't they update the "even worse Valkyrie kit"?
Because the design of the Valkyrie was perfectly solid. It was the assembly of the kit itself that was the issue. You had parts that would end up warped, bent, etc beyond what they should have been.

He's a Manager, that means he manages the store, meaning he has to know what he is allowed and not allowed to stock, which by extension means he has to know what's official GW stuff and what's not. I didn't think I needed to actually explain it to anyone.

So, does he know that he's supposed to be stocking the new Imperial Armour books per company policy?

Also, fun fact: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Games_Workshop_Kits

They differentiate between Forge World Kits and Games Workshop Kits on the site itself.

Also, fun fact:
They do that so you can buy the kit that their conversion kits are associated with, without having to order it from GW or anyone else.

It's not to "differentiate between Forge World kits and Games Workshop kits".

Just like Forge World isn't a licensee of Games Workshop. Read their site better before you want to come in here talking.

Wow. If you as a college student can afford forgeworld they must be cheap, because i'm a college professor and I can't justify the cost of the forgeworld models or the shipping. Damn I wish I was a college student with a 90% disposable income again.
Best bet is use the single lascannons in friendly play and if you ever play competitively just buy three more off ebay to twin liink them up.

They also have the option of full conversion kits, including the plastic kits so you dont have to buy the two separately. And excuse me? Read my own post better? Just because now that you realise the flaw in your argument doesnt mean you can just tell me to change my position.

As for the first three books, It was The Imperial Guard and the Imperial Navy, Space Marine Forces and the Inquisition, and The Taros Campaign.

Skimmed the Intro of the Siege of Vraks, same blurp from the Taros Campaign, but I didnt see anything saying it's an official book.

Also, aside from that one pic in the Guard Codex (which they did for the Manticore too, but promptly came out with a different model) I've rarely seen GW refer to Forge World. In fact the only rulebook that actually refered to the Forge World models is the Apocalypse Books.

EDIT: @ Leprousy: He's spoiled. The fact that he came out saying that I quoted myself wrong should be an indication of his real age.

Kanluwen

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
To be fair, anyone complaining about you fitting HW team lascannons on a valkyrie and calling it a vendetta needs to stop being a TFG. Totally "legal" and, IMO, a completely logical conversion.

I think the complaint is that he's not fitting two of the lascannons in each slot.

Which is a valid complaint.

I understand that you don't like it, but would you play against the OP if he doesn't add a second lascannon to each sponson?
If the OP added a second lascannon to each sponson, would you have a problem with it even though it's not the Forge World conversion kit?
That's what the OP wants to know.

I know it's not technically WYSIWYG, but I don't see the big deal. It's not like it affects game play in any way. But that's just my humble opinion.

EDIT: to fair though, I personally would added the second set of lascannons, cause I'm crazy and have OCD

Thanks for the input. I especially like the idea of adding the targeting. Unfortunately from the sounds of it I'm leaning more towards buying another HW box.

It was also nice to find out the WYSIWYG was actually in the rulebook (I've never read it before, I was always just told it was a rule). A friend just told me this question is best brought up at the rule review prior to a tournament...? I'm wondering if the 2nd paragraph of the rule would be my "outs".

Tharbickmonoploid wrote:Thanks for the input. I especially like the idea of adding the targeting. Unfortunately from the sounds of it I'm leaning more towards buying another HW box.

You don't even need to buy another HW box. You can get Lascannons from the HW boxes from The Warstore and Battlewagon Bitz.
http://www.thewarstore.com/product26940.html

Problem is, Lascannons are one of the most sought after bits for Guard. So it's expensive enough to even just bitz order them from them that I can justify the cost of a Vendetta conversion kit before I can buying the bits.

However, most Vendettas I've seen utilize the Predator sponsons...which actually aren't priced too badly. Here's the link: http://www.thewarstore.com/product38032.html


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:They also have the option of full conversion kits, including the plastic kits so you dont have to buy the two separately. And excuse me? Read my own post better? Just because now that you realise the flaw in your argument doesnt mean you can just tell me to change my position.

It doesn't change the fact that they don't stock GW kits to make some kind of arbitrary difference. It's for convenience sake, like why grocery stores have candy, batteries, etc right at the checkout counter.

As for the first three books, It was The Imperial Guard and the Imperial Navy, Space Marine Forces and the Inquisition, and The Taros Campaign.
Skimmed the Intro of the Siege of Vraks, same blurp from the Taros Campaign, but I didnt see anything saying it's an official book.

Then you're not looking hard enough.

Also, aside from that one pic in the Guard Codex (which they did for the Manticore too, but promptly came out with a different model) I've rarely seen GW refer to Forge World. In fact the only rulebook that actually refered to the Forge World models is the Apocalypse Books.

Wrong again!
The Piranhas and Skyrays in the Tau Empire Codex were the resin kits, not the plastic ones.
The Trygons in the Tyranid Codex were also the resin kits.

EDIT: @ Leprousy: He's spoiled. The fact that he came out saying that I quoted myself wrong should be an indication of his real age.

Yes, obviously I'm a spoiled 23 year old who works his ass off and saves money to buy what he likes. Dear God! The spoiledness!

Leprousy wrote:Wow. If you as a college student can afford forgeworld they must be cheap, because i'm a college professor and I can't justify the cost of the forgeworld models or the shipping. Damn I wish I was a college student with a 90% disposable income again.

The trick is to save up for a big enough order to get free shipping, and make the order when the currency exchange rate is at a 1:1 ratio.

Grass4Hopper wrote:I understand that you don't like it, but would you play against the OP if he doesn't add a second lascannon to each sponson?
If the OP added a second lascannon to each sponson, would you have a problem with it even though it's not the Forge World conversion kit?
That's what the OP wants to know.

It's very situational. At a tournament game, I'd expect everyone else to have put the same amount of work into their army that I have when it comes to conversions and making everything WYSIWYG. You really shouldn't have people having to say "This is supposed to be this." every game in a tournament.

In a friendly pick-up game? Yeah. It'd be fine.

So they featured Resin Kits from a different manufacturer when they just came out with their own kits? Do your research boy. Those were the Plastic kits. There would be no reason to put them in if they were anything but the new plastic kits. Same goes for the Trygon, or how do you explain the cosmetic differences between the Plastic one (and by extension the one featured in the codex) and the forge world one? That they just so happened to clean up a forge world trygon to LOOK like the plastic trygon so they could feature a forge world item, but having it look EXACTLY like a GW item? At this point you are just making up facts as you go along, and I still have yet to see that page reference. Also, stocking them under a different section titled "Games Workshop Kits" always seemed weird to me. Couldnt they just point me to the correct page on the actual link? wouldnt that be more "convenient"? I honestly dont know any other reason why they would put GW kits in a separate place, while still offering "Complete Kits" in their normal lineup. Also, you still didnt address the part where you claimed I quoted myself wrong

For the record, I'm holding both the Tau Empire Codex and Tyranid 5th Ed Codex in my hand right now.

And personally I kinda doubt Tournament Organizers would have that much of a problem with it, vary of course depending on the organizer, but given that the OP did go through this trouble, it seems he would have put way more work into it than some kid who bought the forge world conversion kit.

The last thing I wanted to do was start an argument, I was just looking for what I may run in to at a tournament. As with the rest of the threads I've read in dakka I think it's pretty clear, depends on who you play. I suppose the best way for me to suck up and spend some extra cash is to look at it like: if my opponent goes out and spends the money to have the model I probably should too. I'll grab a hw box this weekend, I need the 60mm bases inside anyhow's!

To continue w/ the FW dilema, just a question. Is it one or the other, or both. If I have to use their model, do I get to use their books? I.e. can I field a Baneblade at a tournament if it does not say anything about FW rules? Better still if the rules say 90% GW models, or no FW rules, no Apocolypse rules? Does this also allow me to be able to improvise on model representation, or am I still required to use the kit? Last tournament I went to a player had a sm salamander army represented w/ lizardmen in power armor. Looked awesome, clearly not human. Kind of like how one barrel is clearly not two???

The Argument was our fault, not yours. Terribly sorry about that. However I didnt think it'd resort to this long rant, especially not him outright making up facts. However I will admit I was wrong about Forge World being a Licensee, they're not licensed, but by their own admission, they are a "separate division from the company that makes and sells the main Games Workshop range of products". Make of that what you will, I still consider their status as official debatable.

As far as most people are concerned, if there's not a model that is 100% produced by Citadel Miniatures (the manufacturer for Games Workshop's range of minis), then there's no official model and you're free to do as you wish so long as it has the correct wargear (and in this case dimensions, as the book explicitly states it's a modified Valk). Then again, even with most models that do have an undisputed official kit, there will always be converters. Fit the dimensions and have the correct equipment is the best way to avoid hassle.

Tharbickmonoploid wrote:The last thing I wanted to do was start an argument, I was just looking for what I may run in to at a tournament. As with the rest of the threads I've read in dakka I think it's pretty clear, depends on who you play. I suppose the best way for me to suck up and spend some extra cash is to look at it like: if my opponent goes out and spends the money to have the model I probably should too. I'll grab a hw box this weekend, I need the 60mm bases inside anyhow's!

To continue w/ the FW dilema, just a question. Is it one or the other, or both. If I have to use their model, do I get to use their books? I.e. can I field a Baneblade at a tournament if it does not say anything about FW rules? Better still if the rules say 90% GW models, or no FW rules, no Apocolypse rules? Does this also allow me to be able to improvise on model representation, or am I still required to use the kit? Last tournament I went to a player had a sm salamander army represented w/ lizardmen in power armor. Looked awesome, clearly not human. Kind of like how one barrel is clearly not two???

Your good to go, dude. All you need is a couple of Landraider or Pred Sponsons and fit them like the picture. (They have 2 on there. 2 each sponson.) Don't worry about the FW deal, thats one of those Tomato, Tomato arguments.
You may do what thou whilt... That is one of the coolness factors of the game. Anyone who wants to parade around and critizise your work can keep thier mouth shut, especially when you are trying to do what you need to do make your Vendetta on the cheap. Another good way to make that sponson might be to glue the Lascannons on a spru cross, and refit two pieces of sprue cross ways, so that you can fit them underwing, much the same way as you would do with a missile or gunship sponson on an attack chopper.

Reading over this one gave me a couple of Ideas, and on a second question, I was going to ask how much that conversion cost difference is, as opposed to buying HW kits.

I have a good sized Catachan Army. I want a couple of these Valkrie/ Vendettas for some air and transport. Want to paint them up like those Marine transports in "Aliens".

1. Where are the rules, and 2. How many guys can ride in a Vendetta? Does it work like flying razorback? or how do you use it on the field?

The rules for the Vendetta are in the main guard codex. It functions more like an even more heavily armed Valk rather than a Flying Razorback (it retains the transport capacity and gains more armaments, but gains an appropriate increase in cost). Definately more geared towards vehicle hunting than mass infantry as with the normal Valk.

I think: $32 for FW, $35 for HW. One HW can make a single barrel conversion, two boxes would do three planes. Plus you'd have the HW team along w/ it.

Mecha' is probably right, best to refer to the codex for exact rules. I haven't used mine yet, looking forward to deep striking w/ it. Haven't decided about transporting.

Officially we're not allowed to post rules or point costs here, but there's a very thin grey line between giving supporting evidence and helping others, and flat out listing the rule from the book, so whenever someone is unsure of the general ruling, we just point them to the relevant codex entry.

I personally think the Heavy Weapons squad is a better buy too. Like you said you also get the HW team with it. You also get alot of leftover weapon bitz from the box, even after building the HW set. As a converter, you never know when these pieces will come in handy.

Thanks for the heads up on forum rules... rookie mistake (guardsmen w/ a flashlight mistake). Apologies to the forum

Lol you dont need to apologise, especailly since you werent even the one asking the question =)

can you use FW models in regular 40k without your opponents consent?

There's nothing that says you cant for models in Imperial Armour Books. For actual Codex units, Forge World kits are basically on the same level as Conversions. However for Imperial Armour units (and especially Experimental ones) it's a good idea to ask/warn/plea with the opponent first. If you suddenly bring in a flier to a random game most people would call bs on you (since they are quite powerful).

Time to bring out the air force, boyz!

Now I can finally use my 2 fightas, 2 fighta bommas, and bomber

what type of unit are flyers anyhow?

HS, FA?

That's detailed in the relevant Imperial Armour book, along with an appropriate list to differentiate them from normal units too, hence why most people expect a little warning before they get field.