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As always, point me towards a thread that this may already be addressed in.

I'm finishing up my first Vendetta model. I have always enjoyed and agreed with "The model represents the listed". The Vendetta is my first obstacle I have ran in to. I know there is a kit you can buy on Forgeworld, a very cool kit at that. But with the intent of fielding 3 of these I would prefer to save on cash. I have one 3 lascannons from a HW sprue that mount up and looked fine on my test fit. It actually looks pretty nice, clean and simple (self assurance on my part, ha ha). What I am worried about is a complaint from an opponent in a tournament. I have spoke with some local players that say it's not a problem, but would like to know what other players on a global scale would say. Feel free to be honest as to your perspective, especially if there were three of these fielded. And more so would this play a part in how you scored your opponent.

the biggest benefit for me is I would only have to buy one more HW box to complete 2 more Vendettas and get another squad out of the purchase.

To be fair, anyone complaining about you fitting HW team lascannons on a valkyrie and calling it a vendetta needs to stop being a TFG. Totally "legal" and, IMO, a completely logical conversion.

Your fine, not counting Forge world the Vendetta does not have a model. The describtion in the codex says its a valk with three twinlinked Lascannons, and you modeled a Valk with three of thoses. I don't know who would complain about that, or on what grounds they would be able to.

Actually, Forge World does not make a Vendetta.

They make a Vendetta Conversion kit, which is just three twin-linked lascannons and some other griblies that you put on a regular Valkyrie.

After reading my own post I want to make sure to clarify. The lascannons that will be on the Vendetta are single lascannons, i.e. 1 barrel, not two lascannons (twin-linked).

Thanks so far, it's noce to know the people out there play like the one's in my neck of the woods!

As long as their is an obvious way to tell the difference between the two at a glance, there should be no real problem. As long as none of the Valkyries in your army have barrels sticking out under the wings, folks should be able to tell the difference fairly well, and they certainly shouldn't complain about it.

There are thousands of forge worlds in the galaxy, and hundreds of patters for every imperial weapon, probably. Whats to say that your lascannons are twin linked because the pattern of lascannon on the world they were manufactured is built to fire twice as fast or something?

If they get pissed off that you wanted to save money, and still try your best to follow the "model represents the listed" ideal... I'd say find somewhere else to play.

Tharbickmonoploid wrote:After reading my own post I want to make sure to clarify. The lascannons that will be on the Vendetta are single lascannons, i.e. 1 barrel, not two lascannons (twin-linked).

Thanks so far, it's noce to know the people out there play like the one's in my neck of the woods!

There's no single lascannon option, so I can't imagine many people will have problems with it. I've done the same with the HWS LCs, but with two lascannons on each wing, and then one in each of the nose-cone slots on either side.

Strictly not WYSIWYG, but I think it would suffice.

my friend at GW said the official model is a valkyrie with T/L lascannons, THERE IS NO OTHER WAY TO MAKE A VENDETTA (period)

AlmightyWalrus wrote:To be fair, anyone complaining about you fitting HW team lascannons on a valkyrie and calling it a vendetta needs to stop being a TFG. Totally "legal" and, IMO, a completely logical conversion.

I think the complaint is that he's not fitting two of the lascannons in each slot.

Which is a valid complaint.

theduncan wrote:my friend at GW said the official model is a valkyrie with T/L lascannons, THERE IS NO OTHER WAY TO MAKE A VENDETTA (period)

Except there is no official model. There is a Valkyrie kit which says nothing about what a "Vendetta Gunship" might be. They are separate entries in the codex. You can make a Vendetta from a Valkyrie kit any more than you can generate Veterans from an infantry kit. Regardless, the wargear specifies twin linked, not single lascannons, so it's not WYSIWYG. As long as he warns whomever he's playing that they should be twinlinked, I can't imagine anyone would have a serious issue.

daedalus wrote:

theduncan wrote:my friend at GW said the official model is a valkyrie with T/L lascannons, THERE IS NO OTHER WAY TO MAKE A VENDETTA (period)

Except there is no official model. There is a Valkyrie kit which says nothing about what a "Vendetta Gunship" might be. They are separate entries in the codex. You can make a Vendetta from a Valkyrie kit any more than you can generate Veterans from an infantry kit. Regardless, the wargear specifies twin linked, not single lascannons, so it's not WYSIWYG. As long as he warns whomever he's playing that they should be twinlinked, I can't imagine anyone would have a serious issue.

Uh, yes there is an official model.

This is the "official" model.

The status of Forge World kits as "official" is debatable since they're not as accessable as the GW kits. Otherwise there'd be no need to release the Manticores and have people clamoring for Hydras and Medusae.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:The status of Forge World kits as "official" is debatable since they're not as accessible as the GW kits. Otherwise there'd be no need to release the Manticores and have people clamoring for Hydras and Medusae.

Uh, no it's not debatable.

The status of Forge World kits that had no Codex entry was debatable, because of "the books being inaccessible". Now though, GW shops are starting to stock Imperial Armour books so that point is moot.

The Manticore release was done so that there was also a model for a Deathstrike. It had nothing to do with the "official status" of the kit.

People clamoring for Hydras and Medusae are just lazy, in my book.
Not my problem if you and the people you game with aren't clever enough to think of "You know, if we put money in together and make one big order...then we can all get what we want!" or asking the shopowner if he'll do Forge World orders(in case you don't have a credit card, in both cases).

Are they GW Plastic Kits? Do they sell them in GW stores? Do they possess the GW logo? (the last one I really dont know and is an honest question tbh).

The Valk was originally a Forge World model if I remember. If Forge World models are indeed as official as you claim, why go through the trouble of making the valk into a plastic kit? Unlike the Manticore there was no alternative model available in the Valk kit (which, imo, is kinda ironic. Tacking on 3 twin linked lascannons onto the sprue wouldnt have hurt THAT much).

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Are they GW Plastic Kits? Do they sell them in GW stores? Do they possess the GW logo? (the last one I really dont know and is an honest question tbh).

You know they're not plastic kits. But by that regard, no metal kit is "official".
Some GW stores are able to order FW products for you, same as they can with Direct Only models.

The Valk was originally a Forge World model if I remember. If Forge World models are indeed as official as you claim, why go through the trouble of making the valk into a plastic kit? Unlike the Manticore there was no alternative model available in the Valk kit (which, imo, is kinda ironic. Tacking on 3 twin linked lascannons onto the sprue wouldnt have hurt THAT much).

The Valkyrie was made into a plastic kit because of the fact that it sold absurdly well through Forge World. Making it a Codex entry(especially for a codex that historically had issues with mobility) and plastic kit was common sense.

What about the Tau Piranah or Skyray? Those were just released shortly before the Tau Codex update and were subsequently made into plastic models. I doubt they sold just as well in a short time span. And for the record, those dont have alternative kits either (the Skyray apparently can be made into the hammerhead, but it was just the inclusion of an extra sprue, not made as an intent for a second tank nor is it advertised on the box as such).

Also, I said "GW Plastic Kits". Evidently Resin is closer to Plastic than Metal. And ALL GW products are available from a GW store, while you said only some GW stores carry the option of ordering FW.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:What about the Tau Piranha or Skyray? Those were just released shortly before the Tau Codex update and were subsequently made into plastic models. I doubt they sold just as well in a short time span. And for the record, those don't have alternative kits either (the Skyray apparently can be made into the hammerhead, but it was just the inclusion of an extra sprue, not made as an intent for a second tank nor is it advertised on the box as such).

The Piranha and Skyray were also both the first time they 'scanned' a model that was already in production and ported it from resin to plastic.

I'm fairly certain there was more lead time than you're stating, but either way: Forge World worked hand in hand with the studio doing the Tau Empire book.

Also, I said "GW Plastic Kits". Evidently Resin is closer to Plastic than Metal.

That still doesn't change the fact that you left out metal kits. So, by your own wording, GW's metal kits are unofficial. Semantics are fun!

And ALL GW products are available from a GW store

No, ALL GW products are not available from a GW store. Stores carry a limited inventory.

while you said only some GW stores carry the option of ordering FW.

Yes, and? That doesn't change that FW's models are accessible to anyone.

I would have no issue with this, escpecially on a pickup game at the local FLGS.

I do however think that a if you are going to a WYSIWYG GT tournement that you should have a more accurate model. You just need 3 more hvy weap LC. no need to buy forge world ones....

I've seen people do a Vendetta with a Valkyrie with added lascannons, and with a zeppelin.

Either way is fine by me.



I'm sorry that the pic is blurred.



Personally I am planning to use 1/48 scale Osprey models for my Vendettas.

Kanluwen wrote:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:What about the Tau Piranha or Skyray? Those were just released shortly before the Tau Codex update and were subsequently made into plastic models. I doubt they sold just as well in a short time span. And for the record, those don't have alternative kits either (the Skyray apparently can be made into the hammerhead, but it was just the inclusion of an extra sprue, not made as an intent for a second tank nor is it advertised on the box as such).

The Piranha and Skyray were also both the first time they 'scanned' a model that was already in production and ported it from resin to plastic.

I'm fairly certain there was more lead time than you're stating, but either way: Forge World worked hand in hand with the studio doing the Tau Empire book.

Also, I said "GW Plastic Kits". Evidently Resin is closer to Plastic than Metal.

That still doesn't change the fact that you left out metal kits. So, by your own wording, GW's metal kits are unofficial. Semantics are fun!

And ALL GW products are available from a GW store

No, ALL GW products are not available from a GW store. Stores carry a limited inventory.

while you said only some GW stores carry the option of ordering FW.

Yes, and? That doesn't change that FW's models are accessible to anyone.

They're not accessable to me without ballsbreaking shipping. As for the Tau, I watched the release myself, and while I dont remember the exact amount of time passed, it was indeed far shorter than what you implied.

you also broke my statement into two sections, conveniently begging a question answered in the other statement. Clever ploy, however:

ALL GW products are available in any store because the GW Online Store is a store in of itself. In addition, anything you order from it is available to be delivered to a local GW gaming store. I've also done in-store orders, not just from GW Ordering points (I asked the manager and he typed up the order on the store's private computer, not the public one. Incidentally he also told me he couldnt order forge world products because they were not allowed to order non-GW stuff) Forge World, on the other hand, is only availble to a limited number of these stores (and honestly I have never seen any GW shop offering Forge World items, even if it's from the Order Point).

Finally, tell me this. If Forge World Models are indeed "Undisputable Official" models, then why the need to make a Manticore model? Couldnt they have just done a Deathstrike Missile as it's own kit? Or make any Forge World model into a GW plastic model? Cant they just carry them in the store?

Also, you also conveniently ignored my last question: does Forge World products have GW labelling on them?

EDIT: IS THAT A KIROV AIRSHIP I SEE!? WHERE CAN I GET ONE!?

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
They're not accessable to me without ballsbreaking shipping. As for the Tau, I watched the release myself, and while I dont remember the exact amount of time passed, it was indeed far shorter than what you implied.

If I, as a college student, can afford Forge World models with their "ballsbreaking shipping"(which it really isn't. It's not cheap, but it's not "ballsbreaking" either).

you also broke my statement into two sections, conveniently begging a question answered in the other statement. Clever ploy, however:

Actually, I did it more because I prefer to answer point by point, rather than all of it at once.

ALL GW products are available in any store because the GW Online Store is a store in of itself. In addition, anything you order from it is available to be delivered to a local GW gaming store. I've also done in-store orders, not just from GW Ordering points (I asked the manager and he typed up the order on the store's private computer, not the public one. Incidentally he also told me he couldn't order forge world products because they were not allowed to order non-GW stuff)

Then your manager is clueless regarding Forge World. They're GW stuff, through and through. The company is owned by GW, the sculptors freelance for GW on occasion, their personal armies are showcased quite often by GW, etc.

Forge World, on the other hand, is only available to a limited number of these stores (and honestly I have never seen any GW shop offering Forge World items, even if it's from the Order Point).

Finally, tell me this. If Forge World Models are indeed "Undisputable Official" models, then why the need to make a Manticore model? Couldn't they have just done a Deathstrike Missile as it's own kit? Or make any Forge World model into a GW plastic model? Cant they just carry them in the store?

Likely because the Manticore mold from Forge World was roughly a decade old and on its last legs?

Plus, they opted to completely redesign it(which was, imo, a mistake).

Also, you also conveniently ignored my last question: does Forge World products have GW labellng on them?

The Forge World books do, yes. The models come packaged in a small baggy that just says "Forge World" and the name of the model, occasionally with a photo of the model and the army it's intended for.

Kanluwen wrote:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
They're not accessable to me without ballsbreaking shipping. As for the Tau, I watched the release myself, and while I dont remember the exact amount of time passed, it was indeed far shorter than what you implied.

If I, as a college student, can afford Forge World models with their "ballsbreaking shipping"(which it really isn't. It's not cheap, but it's not "ballsbreaking" either).

you also broke my statement into two sections, conveniently begging a question answered in the other statement. Clever ploy, however:

Actually, I did it more because I prefer to answer point by point, rather than all of it at once.

ALL GW products are available in any store because the GW Online Store is a store in of itself. In addition, anything you order from it is available to be delivered to a local GW gaming store. I've also done in-store orders, not just from GW Ordering points (I asked the manager and he typed up the order on the store's private computer, not the public one. Incidentally he also told me he couldn't order forge world products because they were not allowed to order non-GW stuff)

Then your manager is clueless regarding Forge World. They're GW stuff, through and through. The company is owned by GW, the sculptors freelance for GW on occasion, their personal armies are showcased quite often by GW, etc.

Forge World, on the other hand, is only available to a limited number of these stores (and honestly I have never seen any GW shop offering Forge World items, even if it's from the Order Point).

Finally, tell me this. If Forge World Models are indeed "Undisputable Official" models, then why the need to make a Manticore model? Couldn't they have just done a Deathstrike Missile as it's own kit? Or make any Forge World model into a GW plastic model? Cant they just carry them in the store?

Likely because the Manticore mold from Forge World was roughly a decade old and on its last legs?

Plus, they opted to completely redesign it(which was, imo, a mistake).

Also, you also conveniently ignored my last question: does Forge World products have GW labellng on them?

The Forge World books do, yes. The models come packaged in a small baggy that just says "Forge World" and the name of the model, occasionally with a photo of the model and the army it's intended for.

We're not arguing about the books. We're arguing about the models =P

Also, you broke my one statement answering your one point into two just to ask more question. I brought up that all GW stores carry all GW products because it explains why Forge World is sometimes not considered official GW stuff, because only a select few stores carry them. How is that two points?

And you claim to have more knowledge of what's official GW Products more than a GW store manager?

In addition, isn't the Valk about the same age as the Manticore? It may have had tiny cosmetic changes, but the Manticore was pretty much redone, while the Valk only got imported onto plastic. Same goes for the Skyray and Piranha if you want to say that the Manticore was small. And again, you only answered half my point. Why not carry the Hydra in the store then? It's in the book, there's no other "official" model for it.

Finally, I'm a College student too. Even with parental backing, buying stuff off forgeworld is still prohibitively expensive. On top of that do you ever pay customs? because I do. When they charge us for customs, it usually goes up into the triple digits. Remember again: I can't order from GW stores. I have to pay the shipping and customs myself, because, once again, GW stores do not like Non GW stuff in them

Fact of the matter is Forge World is only Licensed to make GW-related products and use their logos to advertise. The stance of whether or not they're official is debatable. And the reason I say debatable is because there are valid points on both sides. Address my points instead of trying to misconstrue my words Currently you are the only poster who thinks Forgeworld is Undeniably Official.

As for the OP, strict WYSIWYG means that the thing had to be based on the existing Valk kit, and have 3 TL Lascannons. If he makes it so that his fit this criteria, it's an acceptable model by the book's definition. Going by most people, as long as they can tell what it is at a glance, it's also an acceptable model. Only Nitpickers would tell you otherwise (and even then, they really have no basis whatsoever).

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:[
We're not arguing about the books. We're arguing about the models =P

No, you're just arguing about the "official status of Forge World stuff".

Books fall under that overarching umbrella of "stuff".

Also, you broke my one statement answering your one point into two just to ask more question. I brought up that all GW stores carry all GW products because it explains why Forge World is sometimes not considered official GW stuff, because only a select few stores carry them. How is that two points?

I broke it into two points because not all GW stores carry "all GW products". Just because they can order the stuff, doesn't mean they carry it.

As for your other point...no store "carries" Forge World stuff, simply because it's not profitable and relies upon very specific circumstances to sell.

And you claim to have more knowledge of what's official GW Products more than a GW store manager?

When your manager's apparently unaware of how his own company works?
Yes. Yes I do have more knowledge of what's official GW products than him.

In addition, isn't the Valk about the same age as the Manticore? It may have had tiny cosmetic changes, but the Manticore was pretty much redone, while the Valk only got imported onto plastic. Same goes for the Skyray and Piranha if you want to say that the Manticore was small. And again, you only answered half my point. Why not carry the Hydra in the store then? It's in the book, there's no other "official" model for it.

Hell no the Valk isn't "about the same age as the Manticore". Likely the only reason the Valkyrie made it into plastic was because of the sheer stupidity inherent in that resin kit. It was arguably one of the worst kits in the entire line-up.
The Manticore existed previous to Imperial Armour volume 1. Valkyrie and Vulture did not.

Why not carry the Hydra? Probably because it's something that they're opting to release in plastic alongside the rumored "Flyers" expansion.

Finally, I'm a College student too. Even with parental backing, buying stuff off forgeworld is still prohibitively expensive. On top of that do you ever pay customs? because I do. When they charge us for customs, it usually goes up into the triple digits. Remember again: I can't order from GW stores. I have to pay the shipping and customs myself, because, once again, GW stores do not like Non GW stuff in them

And once again, your store is stupid
Forge World's stuff is as official as anything GW produces.
Why?
Because they're owned and operated by Games Workshop.

Fact of the matter is Forge World is only Licensed to make GW-related products and use their logos to advertise. The stance of whether or not they're official is debatable. And the reason I say debatable is because there are valid points on both sides. Address my points instead of trying to misconstrue my words Currently you are the only poster who thinks Forgeworld is Undeniably Official.

I need a "LOLWAT" picture for these kinds of posts.
Quoting for Sillyness.
Forge World is not "licensed" to make GW related products. They're not Armorcast.

P.S. Plenty of people here think Forge World is "undeniably official".
Do you know why?

Because the books say so right at the start.

As for the OP, strict WYSIWYG means that the thing had to be based on the existing Valk kit, and have 3 TL Lascannons. If he makes it so that his fit this criteria, it's an acceptable model by the book's definition. Going by most people, as long as they can tell what it is at a glance, it's also an acceptable model. Only Nitpickers would tell you otherwise (and even then, they really have no basis whatsoever).

If it doesn't have 3 TL lascannons, a flying base, and the same general dimensions of a Valkyrie--it's a no go.

Would I care if was playing against you? Nope.

But I'm thinking you should add a second lascannon to each sponson if you're considering entering tournaments.

Would it be cheaper for you to just buy the bits you need, instead of buying a HW sprew?

FYI: My argument was that Forge World KITS were debatable on whether or not they're official. I never said "stuff". Go check my post before you put any more words into my mouth Strawman.

Also, would you have the page number, paragraph number and book reference to where it says that? Because I looked through the first few pages of the first three Imperial Armor books and, apart from mentioning it's a supplimentary book and that you need to have read the Warhammer 40k Rulebook and associated codexes before you even think about using it, I did not find where it states that it's an official book.

Also, the Guard book has been out for some time. It's not like the DE who just got their update and another one coming up. If it was undeniably official then GW would have carried the Hydra tank in their store. And you were just dumping on how bad a kit the Manticore was too, so why didnt they update the apparently even worse Valk kit when they did with the less bad Manticore?

He's a Manager, that means he manages the store, meaning he has to know what he is allowed and not allowed to stock, which by extension means he has to know what's official GW stuff and what's not. I didnt think I needed to actually explain it to anyone.

Also, fun fact: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Games_Workshop_Kits

The differentiate between Forge World Kits and Games Workshop Kits on the site itself.

Well my advice would be to give the vendetta some kind of large targetting array to make up for not having extra lascannons. That way you are covering the twin-linked aspect by increasing accuracy. Not all things that are twin linked need to be two physical weapons. Take "bring it down" for example, the officer isn't handing out lascannons to heavy weapon squads is he?

Don't know what bits you have spare but that is what i would do, although i just used spare lascannons i had and a dreadnought arm.

Targeting sensors should be easy to come by. Maybe glue some antennae to the Valk's exterior.

However it flat out says Twin Linked weapons are two weapons linked together to fire in unison in the core rulebook. =( Be prepared to explain that one when it crops up.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Targeting sensors should be easy to come by. Maybe glue some antennae to the Valk's exterior.

However it flat out says Twin Linked weapons are two weapons linked together to fire in unison in the core rulebook. =( Be prepared to explain that one when it crops up.

You mean as in like this:

Person A - "This is a vendetta"

Person B - "Ok"

Sorts out any confusion. At least if it is modelled to somewhat resemble what it should be.

Can't imagine the kind of person who would refuse to play a game based on the model only having single lascannons. Sure, if you are calling meltaguns plasma or a rhino a predator it's not right but would anyone really cause trouble over some lascannons? This is coming from a very strict wysiwyg player. Well i suppose i'm not obscenely strict as I would have no problem with this as long as it looked good.

I'm very lax on WYSIWYG, but I've met complete douchebags that actually forced me out of the store once because my models werent right. The Manager let me back in but they were rather merciless. partly the reason why I hate anyone who acts douchebaggy against the obvious intent of the rules (mostly RAW players). And the offense I incurred? i wanted to downgrade a single Power fist to a Power weapon because I didnt have the points to pay for it.