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tedurur wrote:no one is saying that a krak grenade is better than a fist. What some people correctly (IMO) are pointing out is that those 25pts could be better spent elsewhere.

Not when folks blatantly misquote statistical averages to make their point. The pf is worth every point.

/sarcasm off

tedurur wrote:

Brother-Thunder wrote:

Dracos wrote:There have been threads before where I pointed out how the powerfist isn't really worth the cost. The problem with them is that even against a dreadnought you are not going to have a good chance to destroy it anyways. Instead of trying to destroy it in CC, you could be using combat tactics (C:SM) to fall back after you lose, regroup and fire heavy+special weapons into it on your turn. Even if that tactical squad doesn't destroy it, the Dread is now a target for your other heavies.

C:SM tactical squads seldom have a reason to take a PF. Taking the special character for stubborn might be one of them, or if you don't have combat tactics otherwise.


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On topic: Bolters are good, but you don't need to spam them. You are forced to take some for holding objectives (tactical marines), you don't need to go out of your way for them. SM troops are expensive so you need to ration your points to put in as many toys as possible.

well, what stops the savy space marine player from hitting the dread with a power fist, and if that fails, run the hell away and shoot after?

no one is saying that a krak grenade is better than a fist. What some people correctly (IMO) are pointing out is that those 25pts could be better spent elsewhere.

I never made that suggestion going either way, to begin with. Nor do I use P-fists for security against dreads, those should be dead from HW fire previous. No, when it comes time to contest an objective, I want security in winning that combat, and that is why the power fist is there.

If you're spamming bolters, that means you're also spamming the marines that carry them.

This makes your army a bulk army. Different than a horde army in that it relies on sheer mass to keep it alive, rather than sheer mass to pull down it's opponents. The reason for this is that bolters are not long ranged weapons, they are 18-24" weapons that are not offensively comparable to the other weapons and units that can be fielded from the space marine codex. This means that, once your squads get into range, they will have one or two turns before they are engaged in close quarters.

If you're footslogging, you will be able to field a lot of marines, but they will be relatively isolated from one another (I think that, by now, people know what the advantages and disadvantages are of footslogging, so I won't get into that). For what its worth, my friend has gone through the better part of 5th ed just on footslogging. His win record is rather abysmall (2-1-13?)

If you mech up, well, I can't quite envision a bolter spam mech army.. (would you have lots of marines in rhinos, and terminators in LRs? And bikes on the flanks?).

Again, the advantage in an army like this would be its numbers, but I think this is an army that would lose and tie considerably more than it won. Bolters simply aren't killy enough to wipe out units unless you're concentrating massive ammounts of firepower on them. I don't see you being able to do this while mechanised and even bikes have trouble with this (I'm basing this on the experience that faster units have an easier time converging and concentrating on single units).

You can get lucky, and with that many bolters you will be maximizing the phenomena known as "forcing the luck" (basically, the more dice you roll, the more damage you deal when you get lucky) but I think it is a mistake to assume, or even hope, that you will.

As people have mathhammered already, bolters can only do so much even when concentrated, and I'm not convinced that it will be enough to keep you alive, let alone win, as the games that I've played against my aforementioned friend has shown me.


Edit:
I don't think that people can honestly argue that bolters are "bad". But having an army that is based upon bolters is going to be like having a building with a huge foundation made of sand.

Well I have no real problem with my bolters.
Since CSM have both bolters and pistol/CCW,I always have the option of getting into a nice place and shooting down the enemy. 2 shots at 12" is good,most of the time my enemy is around there,I know I chould charge but if he attacks me in cover I'll still strike first (Mark of Slaanesh).

But heavy bolters are a waste.
I use 5 noise marines,1 with a doom siren,1 with a blastmaster and 3 with sonic blasters.
Standing still,that's like 9 bolters,a heavy flamer that ignores power armour,and a plasma cannon that doesn't get hot.

Brother-Thunder wrote:
I never made that suggestion going either way, to begin with. Nor do I use P-fists for security against dreads, those should be dead from HW fire previous. No, when it comes time to contest an objective, I want security in winning that combat, and that is why the power fist is there.

But it doesn't really succeed in what you want it to do. If less than 1 wound (statistically) is going to grant you security, I think you should re-think your strategy.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Bolters suck, but they come with your troops choices and they're better than nothing, so...yeah.

Let me get this straight: the Ferrari of nonspecial human weaponry, the standard issue of mankind's best hope for survival, does the same amount of damage as an Ork Shoota, and you can't assault after you fire it? Yeah...

Well, if we get technical about this, Ork "technology" is easily the equal of the Imperium, it's just ramshackle and jury-rigged with make-believe.

imweasel wrote:

Brother-Thunder wrote:
I never made that suggestion going either way, to begin with. Nor do I use P-fists for security against dreads, those should be dead from HW fire previous. No, when it comes time to contest an objective, I want security in winning that combat, and that is why the power fist is there.

But it doesn't really succeed in what you want it to do. If less than 1 wound (statistically) is going to grant you security, I think you should re-think your strategy.

3 attacks on the charge, 2 hit, two's to wound. I have wiped BA assault squads off of objectives by charging my sarge and his squad.

Brother-Thunder wrote:3 attacks on the charge, 2 hit, two's to wound. I have wiped BA assault squads off of objectives by charging my sarge and his squad.

So? I've done the same thing without a pf.

Statistically it's still:

3A on the charge.
1.5 hits.
1.25 wounds.

After the charge, it is less than 1w per assault phase. For 25pts on a squad that should not be seeking cc.

IMO, tacs do NOT need a pf.
If you think you do in fact need one, and boast about how good a pf in a tac squad is and how often you use it: well my friend then you're doing it wrong.
Tac marines should not need one in a game, and you (as the player) should look after your forces and ensure that remains the case.
If your winning an objective based game relys on your tac squads using a powerfist. Then you should be embarassed, not proud.

Heavy Bolters used to be worthwhile. The problem is 5th ed prevalence of cover saves means the average 2 hits is really 1 after the saves. 5th ed and the new price drops also made rhinos an idiots choice right move so meched up lists are worth it - again HBs are anti-personnel while the ML is multi-purpose.

Stormbolters are overcosted so they are a non-option. This is the one case I will take an HB if my choice is stormbolter or HB.

I used to spam HBs in the old editions and codexes. They used to be cheaper than MLs and they definitely did the job when every army did not come in meched up.

Whistfully remember the days of yore and generally leave them at home.

A PF is not a bad edition with a counterattack unit but I would not spam them with each and every squad. Just not worth it when my choice is 5 PF sgts or a 5-man squad in a base razorback or the PFs. If you are sweating dreadnoughts maybe a melta-bomb. Cheapers and still should put the fear into any defiler or soulgrinder before he locks you into combat. And remember the other guys have krak grenades so you aren't defenseless.

Agreed with earlier posters- spend it on a meltagun, meltabomb and a missile launcher. That can kill the MC or dread better than the same points jammed into and auto powerfist for every squad.

I dont think the guy is comparing it to a meltagun, meltabomb, or missle launcher he is saying that the powerfist has its uses and has helped him win games. Why would anyone be embarassed of a win, I dont know?

Lol,people remember this is about Bolters.

You can start your own tread on Power Fists if you like.

One has been created already.... lol

imweasel wrote:

puma713 wrote:
Yeah - please don't put pf's in your tac squads. That way I don't have anything to worry about with my dreadnoughts.

I would much rather spend the points that would kill your dreads while they are coming in rather than after they somehow and miraculously managed to get into CC with my tac squad...

A stormraven moving 12" turn 1 to deliver a Wings of Sanguinus dread that can assault up to 18" away is not terribly difficult, nor 'miraculous'. Or, if they're in the back line, turbo-boost turn 1 and do the same thing, but this time drop TH/SS termies with the dread.

I think in today's metagame the uses of stand and shoot bolters is completely outnumbered by the other options. If you don't put your marines in bawkses then your oponent will surely shoot them up. If your opponent doesn't shoot them up, marines need to capture objectives which means they need to be mobile in effect limiting the range to 12" anyway. In the last few games I have played I haven't used the 24" range at all. I play a mechanized list though so its not feasable for me to exit at a distance shoot then get shot and assaulted the next turn. If you think about it you can hit really hard when you get out shoot pistols and assault weapons then assault with the marines stats and the trusty PF. Bolters are cool in fluff but have specific purposes in the actual game, alternatives for wasting good ap shots and shredding really squishy stuff that's not in cover.

On a side not, PF are worth every point you pay. My tac squad just shredded a unit of 3 obliterators last weekend. Got close, shot pistols, shot flamer and combimelta(TL cause I have vulkan), then assaulted with a PF. They had one wound left which I took out in his turn. Personally I never leave home without a PF or TH in a squad, it lets them deal with most situations they come across and makes your opponent think twice about assault.

Being a guard player, bolters are my actually my last choice. Heavy, pistol, bolter, even storm bolters. I don't use any of them because I can't rely on the AP.

As far as heavy bolters are concerned, for the same points, I can pick up an Autocannon (HWT) or a Multilas (Chimera). I'd rather have some heavy stubbers to spread around instead of heavy bolter sponsons, because I can always fire them, and I get a free bolter if I wanted it. I wouldn't put a storm bolter on a pintle either, because you get more shots of the same strength at longer range with the stubber.

I'll even pick flamers over heavy bolters on my Chimeras hull weapons just because I can't rely on them to put hits on a target. If I lose the multi las, I can still disembark and run around torching hordes of units.

There's also no reason for your foot soldiers to take bolt pistols, unless you've got an odd number of points to spare because you took extra Stormtroopers.

The guard has few reasons to take bolters because it has so many other options. Because you're counting on your opponents to have to make armor saves, you tend to not worry about your AP. And if you're using weapons with a high AP, they tend to do so much damage, they go for the ID anyway.

puma713 wrote:
A stormraven moving 12" turn 1 to deliver a Wings of Sanguinus dread that can assault up to 18" away is not terribly difficult, nor 'miraculous'. Or, if they're in the back line, turbo-boost turn 1 and do the same thing, but this time drop TH/SS termies with the dread.

And just how is a pf really going to help a tac squad vs either termies or a dread? All that happens is you spent an extra 25pts on a dead unit.

imweasel wrote:

puma713 wrote:
A stormraven moving 12" turn 1 to deliver a Wings of Sanguinus dread that can assault up to 18" away is not terribly difficult, nor 'miraculous'. Or, if they're in the back line, turbo-boost turn 1 and do the same thing, but this time drop TH/SS termies with the dread.

And just how is a pf really going to help a tac squad vs a dread?

Really?

puma713 wrote:Really?

Ya. It's going to net you .5 in damage rolls per assault phase and some of those won't be helpful. For 25pts. It will be ZERO help vs assault termies.

So ya, really.

I think he means 0.5 is better than 0.0

Destrado wrote:I think he means 0.5 is better than 0.0

For 25pts a squad? And it's not 'zero' for a tac squad. If you still have tactics, you can try to run. Hell, as long as you don't have stubborn you can probably try to run. You still have grenades on ALL of your marines FOR FREE. Take a mb for 5pts. The pf is just about as useful as a mb vs termies and it costs 20pts less.

I personally think bolters suck (compare to DE splinter weapons, or dire avenger weapons), but they could be worse (lasguns). They play a vital role just like melta guns do.

One of the indications I know my list has swung to far towards anti meq/big things is not enough bolter shots. When you are facing down a swarm of annoying things like gaunts and orks or heaven forbid glass cannons like genestealers or DE, you NEED that cheap bolter guy more than the S8 1 shot weapon.

Figuring out where the balance between bulk and fire power lies is one of the challenges of playing SMs. Skimp too much on guys, you might be lacking in anti infantry. Load up on guys, you might be lacking in long range fire power and big unit hunting ability.

Also, unlike other people, I actually like my scouts with bolters. The bolter is a good midfield controlling weapon, and scouts with their infiltrate, scouts move, and move through cover, are a midfield unit.

This is actually a really great point. There are a number of units that you really want to Bolter to kill and not get stuck in with. Wyches and Genestealers are two that immediately spring to mind. Bolters may not have the raw killing power many people want, but they are useful and they are a heck of a lot better than lasguns!

imweasel wrote:

puma713 wrote:Really?

Ya. It's going to net you .5 in damage rolls per assault phase and some of those won't be helpful. For 25pts. It will be ZERO help vs assault termies.

So ya, really.

Except that there's no such thing as 0.5 damage. It gives you a chance, a relatively decent chance to damage the dread. 11% doesn't seem like much, but those are the odds to outright destroy it. The odds of taking out a weapon or immobilizing it are greater than that.

Come on, people, mathhammer is useful, but it's not a mirror-perfect reflection of what happens in a game.

A friend of mine ran two squads of 3 land speeders with 3 heavy bolters each. for 180 points he had a mobile, agile unit that could contest/deny movement and fire 18 heavy bolter shots....it wasn't expected and it didn't do too badly.

Destrado wrote:Impressive how some people think that the way they play is the only way to play.

Most thought provoking words I've read in awhile... Nice to meet you, Destrado.

On Topic: I like the idea and theory of Bolter spam, but only in certain situations. The problem that I see most players encounter are when they use it in situations that don't benefit them (as much). Bolter Spam is more of a mid to late game strategy. After a few or some of the Death Star units have been whittled down a couple of models, it's a tactic best employed either right before you plan to assault the unit, or if you have enough fire power quantity to either take down the squad completely, or enough so that you've got a good chance of winning in CC (And by good chances, I usually mean at least 80% or higher).

Now obviously it comes ultimately down to how the dice roll. (I recently played a game where I assaulted a single Tactical Marine with 8 Sternguard Veterans. Took 2 whole turns (ie - 4 rounds of combat) before I finally killed it. Sh*t happens sometimes.) So before people start math-hammering away (oh wait... ), I'm pretty sure most people would agree that, like all other cases that have recently been discussed with Tactical Squads, Bolter Spam is a situational and circumstantial strategy.


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Magister187 wrote:One has been created already.... lol

This made me lol too...

adielubbe wrote:If your winning an objective based game relys on your tac squads using a powerfist. Then you should be embarassed, not proud.

We can put anything if in place in your statement and it will still make sense. Here are some examples.

If your winning an objective based game relys on your rhinos using a HK. Then you should be embarassed, not proud.
If your winning an objective based game relys on your Twolves using a SS. Then you should be embarassed, not proud.
If your winning an objective based game relys on your Necrons using a Monolith. Then you should be embarassed, not proud.

The problem with that statement is it relies upon an absolute. Absolutes usually very poor arguments.
Anytime someones game relies upon one thing, its not a good idea...yes.. That was not what the entire PF debate was about -- it was about if they were worth the oppertunity cost to put them in TAC squads

PS : I mean no offense. I am simply pointing out that the argument you stated was invalid.

Not going to argue that one much mouse.

Most of the argument against pf's seems to rely on effect for cost.

Most of the argument for the pf seems to rely on rare and specific scenarios.

That's why there is such head butting on the issue.

Lists are tight as it is. Increasing the cost of a somewhat mandatory unit just seems like a waste of points.

Rurouni Benshin wrote:
Most thought provoking words I've read in awhile... Nice to meet you, Destrado.

(Off-topic: Thanks, nice to meet you too, Battousai)

I always have PF, but i play BA assault squads so they are very useful there where the assault squad can deal mad damage to the foe first.

now on bolter spam, i like the idea, but you need some weapons to handle hoards and heavy tanks. I would say have the bolters be the main point of the army, but make sure to have lascannons, and flamers to deal with heavy tanks, and hoard respectively. the bolters can really be effective within the battleground, but not when dealing with 1000s of enemies or land raiders. The other great thing about bolters is that by having few other things you end up with just a ton of tac marine bodies, it can be scary to see that many power armored foes!